Curse

Niveknight · Dec 10, 2009, 07:23 AM // 07:23

Well, as stated in the title, I left Guild Wars a couple (Three-ish) years ago to play World of Warcraft. I then played Aion for a bit, but I wandered back to Guild Wars and fell in love. Again. Trouble is, I have all four expansions and I have no real idea how to function. Super Noob. It's not fun to be one.

Started up a Ritualist/Ranger, got it to 20 in Factions and got relatively far (I think) but the class just didn't sit right. So I switched to Rit/Necro and ended up with Pain, Union and six Necro spells. So that and a Guild mate giving me fuss over not doing Prophecies first caused me to make a Proph necro. Here are the questions!

Necromancer/Elementalist. Level 6 Post Searing. (Was told to advance once I got all my skills, so I did.) I see lingo like MM, SS, Bomber and I have no clue what those are. I generally solo + Henchmen things, so what should I focus on to handle missions effectively?

That's the main question. Other than that, any friendly advice on Necromancers would rock. Thanks a ton for reading all that and for offering your advice. Much obliged.

upier · Dec 10, 2009, 08:06 AM // 08:06

You should get a nice explanation here:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10241271

But for a short version, plus so that you know what to look under:
MM = Minion Master
Bomber = Minion Bomber
SS = Spiteful Spirit

Running minions is very godly in low areas. Being able to double the party size works wonders. The only issue are certain areas just outside of Ascalon that are mostly populated by those stone monsters which don't leave a corpse on death - making corpse exploitation (which being a minion master/bomber is all about) impossible.
The problem with curses is that they aren't that effective in low areas because you will find yourself wanting to do more damage. The hench builds are on the low end when it comes to damage output so you might want to stay away from curses for now.
The problem with blood is that it works on a very special mechanic - life stealing. And it's because of how this mechanic works - the skills can't actually be good because of it.

So my suggestion would be to just toy around with different option and see what you like best - but be aware of the limitation I brought up and not judge a line based on it's performance in this very specific starting area.
I'd also look into using Soul Reaping to fuel the elementalist skills in the areas where minion mastering does not work. It will probably turn out to be a more effective option than running curses or blood.

But most of all, just try to have fun. It doesn't matter if you do not run the most effective option as long as you win with it AND be aware of it's limitations.

Gennadios · Dec 10, 2009, 08:35 AM // 08:35

MMing can be done by a rit just as well as a necro can do it. Summon Bone Minions + Boon of Creation, both of which are available within the first few quests is pretty much a noob island steamroller.

Bomber = MM with the Jagged Bones, and Death Nova spells. I wouldn't recommend any sane individual to run it through, it's a very micromanagement heavy build that's best left to heroes.

Niveknight · Dec 10, 2009, 08:49 AM // 08:49

Thanks a ton Upier for that link. I read all of the info it had, and it helped a lot. Although since I knew like four of the skills it had listed, it didn't help as much as it was intended to. The info was still great though. Good learn.

Genniados, yeah, I noticed that on the link Upier provided. MM seems to be more complicated than it should be. Minion Bomber looks like a ton of fun, though. From what I read at least. Is it possible to run a MB build, or do you think it truly is just too complex?

I do have a question on something Upier mentioned. He said the mechanic of life stealing was inefficient. Why is that exactly?

Gennadios · Dec 10, 2009, 09:05 AM // 09:05

Not so much complex, just too much micro management.

Death Nova and jagged bones are enchants that take effect when a target dies. Minions are used as disposable bodies, casting the two enchants on the minions that are close to death in order to spread damage(death nova) and raise additional minions (jagged bones.)

Since any good necromancer will have anywhere from 10 - 12 minions, and since they don't appear in your party window, your time as a MM will be spent visually cycling through your gang of minions trying trying to identify ones close to death to enchant. Throw in the fact that they have a good chance of dying during a cast, and it's more trouble than it's worth. For extra damage you're better off relying on curses like Barbs and Mark of Pain, which add to the physical damage that your minions will do to your enemies.

The blood magic problem that Upier mentions is a balance issue, these skills not only damage your enemy, but heal as well, which means they can very easily become overpowered. Not so /w GW.

Blood magic tends to be very expensive in terms of life loss to necros (alot of skills require you to sacrifice health.) On top of that, the skills that don't require a health sac iether cost alot of mana, or simply have really long recharges, rendering them too slow for general use.

Niveknight · Dec 10, 2009, 09:20 AM // 09:20

I see. So, to level MM is probably the most efficient you'd say? Because of the added head count to the team and such? I've been reading the Necro forum a bit and I don't really understand terms like Discord and whatnot, it seems like it's a very involved class. I enjoy that aspect of it, and from what I've gathered so far MB looks like a ton of fun, except the watching 10 tiny healthbars meticulously part at least.

I think the best thing I can do is play around with all of it as I level so I can get a feel for it. The one thing I am curious about is that I've seen info for N/D, N/Mo, N/Rt but not a whisper about N/E. Is N/E just not viable for some reason? Like Upier mentioned, I really like the synergy of Soul Reaping and Ele AoE stuff.

upier · Dec 10, 2009, 09:39 AM // 09:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gennadios

The blood magic problem that Upier mentions is a balance issue, these skills not only damage your enemy, but heal as well, which means they can very easily become overpowered. Not so /w GW.

Blood magic tends to be very expensive in terms of life loss to necros (alot of skills require you to sacrifice health.) On top of that, the skills that don't require a health sac iether cost alot of mana, or simply have really long recharges, rendering them too slow for general use.

The biggest problem with life stealing is that the skills bypass protection. That means when you have skills that reduce damage - such as Protective Spirit (a monk skill) life stealing completely bypasses this making life stealing function under a completely different rule than ANY other kind of direct damage in GW. That poses a huge problem in PvP because if the skills were actually good enough that would mean that there is absolutely nothing the posing team can do in terms of negating this damage outside of healing after the damage was done. And if the skills were good enough - that would mean that in the hands of a competent team - the target would be dead after being hit by these skills. So you'd have cases where you can not reduce the damage, as is the case now, nor could you heal the damage because you can not heal dead folks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Niveknight

I see. So, to level MM is probably the most efficient you'd say? Because of the added head count to the team and such? I've been reading the Necro forum a bit and I don't really understand terms like Discord and whatnot, it seems like it's a very involved class. I enjoy that aspect of it, and from what I've gathered so far MB looks like a ton of fun, except the watching 10 tiny healthbars meticulously part at least.

I think the best thing I can do is play around with all of it as I level so I can get a feel for it. The one thing I am curious about is that I've seen info for N/D, N/Mo, N/Rt but not a whisper about N/E. Is N/E just not viable for some reason? Like Upier mentioned, I really like the synergy of Soul Reaping and Ele AoE stuff.

Btw - if you need an explanation of other terms - a very good place is to load up wiki and just check them out.
http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Main_Page

Discord = a Death Magic elite skill. It deals a lot of damage and is very popular in hero builds.

On the subject of elementalist skills - the problem is that all skills that deal elemental damage (which means anything that says fire, cold, lightning or earth damage!) are affected by the foe's armour level. So the stronger enemies you face, less damage skills that deal elemental damage do. That means that in the starting areas elemental damage is relatively nice but it becomes near worthless later in the game - or better yet it's overshadowed by better options.

Niveknight · Dec 10, 2009, 09:46 AM // 09:46

On the topic of the /E, so once I start doing level to missions the elementalist spells will be insufficient more or less? Right now there are only two skills on my bar. The signet that lowers the next two spells by 10 energy and the starting fire AoE, but I was hoping to add one more AoE spell or high damage targeted spell later on. Though, if by 20 most of my skills will be insufficient that's a big buzz kill.

Thanks for the wiki links. I'm on Dial-up right now so doing anything is torture but I'll be back home in a day or so and check it out more in depth.

Would you recommend against the /E altogether, you think? It seems like a fun concept to me, but I didn't know that fact about the elemental damage.

(Are there enough areas where there are enemies with, for example, weakness to fire to make it worth keeping around?)

IceQ · Dec 10, 2009, 09:50 AM // 09:50

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page

Go look at some of the builds, (Discordway is also there so might help to understand that one) it will give you some idea of how some people build their bars. Personally I prefer to leave my one of my Necro heroes as a MB/MM.

upier · Dec 10, 2009, 10:29 AM // 10:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Niveknight

On the topic of the /E, so once I start doing level to missions the elementalist spells will be insufficient more or less? Right now there are only two skills on my bar. The signet that lowers the next two spells by 10 energy and the starting fire AoE, but I was hoping to add one more AoE spell or high damage targeted spell later on. Though, if by 20 most of my skills will be insufficient that's a big buzz kill.

Thanks for the wiki links. I'm on Dial-up right now so doing anything is torture but I'll be back home in a day or so and check it out more in depth.

Would you recommend against the /E altogether, you think? It seems like a fun concept to me, but I didn't know that fact about the elemental damage.

(Are there enough areas where there are enemies with, for example, weakness to fire to make it worth keeping around?)

The good thing about the N/E combo is that you can abuse the elemental damage in the starting areas and then, once elemental damage stops being effective, you just switch to the necro skills that deal damage. And actually these necro skills are among the best damage dealing skills in the game.
That way you get the best out of both worlds.

The problem is that GW is a game that is designed for players to run around in 8 man parties and being lvl20. So everything to that point is just trying to familiarize yourself with the game. And some of the roles change dramatically once you get there. For instance - in the hardest content, the necro is going to be one of the best damage dealers while the elementalist is going to be the best healer!

So if you are somehow drawn to the necro - stick with the guy. You'll be greatly rewarded later on. It's a superb class.

Niveknight · Dec 10, 2009, 10:43 AM // 10:43

So once I hit 20 I'll probably switch from Elementalist to something more efficient anyway. Got it. Necromancer is definitely the class for me. My first character was when Prophecies was new. Necro/Mesmer. Every character I've made has been /Necromancer with more necromancer skills than any other skills, haha. Thanks a ton for all the info about it and the links. It helped a lot. I still have a lot to learn, but I'll probably need to learn through experience most of the way. I'm just going to do everything up until 20 to get a feel for how it all works.

My last question! Weapon...What's the best type of weapon for a necro? Two handed staff? Wand and focus? Figuring out the weapons has given me some grief.

The Riven · Dec 10, 2009, 11:38 AM // 11:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Niveknight

My last question! Weapon...What's the best type of weapon for a necro? Two handed staff? Wand and focus? Figuring out the weapons has given me some grief.

Quite a large question as well, If your just in Prophocies for the moment and under lvl 20 I would try to stick to wand and offhand.

After that the options are quite varied, if you are running a curses build then i would suggest a spear and an offhand with a wand and offhand switch, as well as a spear and sheild switch, basicly your going to be lugging around a HUGE number of weapons.

ruemere · Dec 10, 2009, 02:18 PM // 14:18

Since you have four campaigns:

1. Get to Lion's Arch ASAP.
2. From there go to Kaineng City Center (Factions) and buy 60 armor. It will help you considerably in further missions.
3. From Lion's Arch (since you have all campaigns) get quest "What lies beneath", complete it to get 2 heroes, go back to Lion's Arch (too many spoilers lie ahead if you continue too far).
4. From Lion's Arch travel to Kamadan (Nightfall) to get a little more heroes.
5. Enjoy Prophecies.

Regards,
Ruemere

PS. For added benefit, get yourself MOX (it's a hero golem available for owners of all campaigns), it waits for you just outside of Lion's Arch.

Reformed · Dec 10, 2009, 02:22 PM // 14:22

The Curses line is simply outstanding. Generic SS is still as powerful as ever and really shines in hard due to automatic attack speed increases. If you are going to experiment with anything look there first.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Niveknight

My last question! Weapon...What's the best type of weapon for a necro? Two handed staff? Wand and focus? Figuring out the weapons has given me some grief.

With skills like Mindbender in the game it's no longer really necessary to run but it's nice to have a 40/40 wand and focus set in the main attribute of your build. Staff is fine too, I find that a generic max energy and 20% enchant Soul Reaping is nice because of it's flexibility with builds. You could also run a caster melee weapon (+5e/20% enchant) and a focus with similar effect.

Xenomortis · Dec 10, 2009, 02:55 PM // 14:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gennadios

MMing can be done by a rit just as well as a necro can do it. Summon Bone Minions + Boon of Creation, both of which are available within the first few quests is pretty much a noob island steamroller.

No it can't. It's viable and although the minions will have more health due to Spawning Power, they'll have less armour, do less damage and you can't have as many.
You also cannot run Order of Undeath reliably.

Of course a rit can do it and in the earlier stages of the game you won't notice much difference, but ultimatly a Necro does it better.

You're a new Necromancer. It really does not matter what you run at this stage. The direct damage skills from Blood will be sufficient, if not very efficient.
Come the later stages of the game, Curses is the way to go.
Or just roll as a MM, you'll push through most of Normal Mode that way.

HigherMinion · Dec 10, 2009, 03:14 PM // 15:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Riven

Quite a large question as well, If your just in Prophocies for the moment and under lvl 20 I would try to stick to wand and offhand.

After that the options are quite varied, if you are running a curses build then i would suggest a spear and an offhand with a wand and offhand switch, as well as a spear and sheild switch, basicly your going to be lugging around a HUGE number of weapons.

I never bothered with the whole weapon switch spam thing.

You will be fine with one weapon set for one build. Generally a spear + focus for any decent curses necromancer. Or a staff for a Minion Master.

ValaOfTheFens · Dec 10, 2009, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

I never bothered with the whole weapon switch spam thing.

You will be fine with one weapon set for one build. Generally a spear + focus for any decent curses necromancer. Or a staff for a Minion Master.

So you only run one type of build? I can't imagine going through GW with only one or two weapons. I have a 55 set(-50 Cesta + Caster Weapon), +30 staff, +30hp/-5dmg shield(I don't have room for a +30 weapon right now), a longbow, and 3 40/40 sets(Curses, Blood, and Death). At the beginning of the game this stuff is irrelevent and most collector weapons will suit your needs just fine. *sigh* You reminded me of the days when I only had one set of armor and it was mismatched armor at that!

MM is a solid build through the easier parts of each campaign. Curses become more useful towards the middle and Blood is of course always useful but somewhat risky in inexperienced hands. Remember to put points into Soul Reaping while you're pumping up your other stats. A Necro with no energy is a dead Necro.

Hatchet Child · Dec 11, 2009, 01:27 PM // 13:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by ValaOfTheFens

So you only run one type of build?

MoP Nuker, nuff said.

syphonus · Dec 11, 2009, 05:34 PM // 17:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by ValaOfTheFens

Blood is of course always useful

For what, exactly? The only thing Blood was ever good for was orders and gimmick SV builds for bosses.

Ensign · Dec 12, 2009, 07:54 PM // 19:54

Necros have a high ambient power level, but their main strength is as a force multiplier. When you're multiplying other players, Necros are great. When you're multiplying heroes and henchmen, they lose a lot of their appeal.

Think of the class as having the highest floor in the game, but a ceiling that is very dependent upon your teammates. If you, as a player, sit on the floor a Necro is great, but if you push the ceiling get on another class unless you have friends around.