Curse

dagrdagaz · Mar 14, 2010, 12:43 AM // 00:43

Aah, my Olias is a MB then, instead of MM

Versatile minions; i gave him Shambling Horror (for Jagged Horror that causes Bleeding), Vampiric Horror and Bone Horror (lower recharge time means more minions faster).

Minion support skills i gave him r Jagged Bones, Death Nova and Dwayna's Sorrow (yes, made him a Monk secondary). I took the advice on Wiki that Dwayna's Sorrow works well on minions (for a MB then).

the template code for anyone who is interested;
OANDUshtOL1jaJbKgJQDGNdC

His DM and SR r increased with runes.
I am sure this build has weaknesses, but i thinks its fun sofar, for NM.

Xenomortis · Mar 14, 2010, 01:02 AM // 01:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by dagrdagaz

Versatile minions; i gave him Shambling Horror (for Jagged Horror that causes Bleeding), Vampiric Horror and Bone Horror (lower recharge time means more minions faster).

3 minion skills is a big no-no. Generally you want a maximum of 2 but most MB builds simply have one.
For the purposes of a MB, Bone Minions are generally considered to be the best option. Generally I run Shambling Horror and Bone Minions on mine, but I can lose Shambling Horror if I need the space.

dagrdagaz · Mar 14, 2010, 01:12 AM // 01:12

Can we say my build is both MM and MB ?!
Wich is fine, cos it was intented to be MM, to have a small army.

(Am i now banned for replying again within 24 hours ?!)

No, that rule only applies for Ventari's (the buy/sell/services/etc areas) - Marty.

Chthon · Mar 14, 2010, 04:09 AM // 04:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by dagrdagaz

Can we say my build is both MM and MB ?!
Wich is fine, cos it was intented to be MM, to have a small army.

No, not really. It's a bad idea to try to mix the two. To put it simply: If the build is a MB, then you affirmatively want the minions to die so you can get more death novas per unit time. On the other hand, if you're spending 15e or 25e on a minion, then you should want the minions to live so you get the most out of your investment. Any attempts at a hybrid always end up as either (a) a MB that wastes a lot of energy, or (b) a MM that occasionally puts Death Nova on a dying minion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

3 minion skills is a big no-no. Generally you want a maximum of 2 but most MB builds simply have one.
For the purposes of a MB, Bone Minions are generally considered to be the best option. Generally I run Shambling Horror and Bone Minions on mine, but I can lose Shambling Horror if I need the space.

Agreed that a MB needs only one minion type and a MM usually needs only two. The only exception I can think of is a MM dealing with certain HM areas that chew through minions very quickly. In that situation, you either have to give up VampHorror for BoneHorror or supplement VampHorror with a second melee minion (probably Shambling).

Xenomortis · Mar 14, 2010, 10:33 AM // 10:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Agreed that a MB needs only one minion type and a MM usually needs only two. The only exception I can think of is a MM dealing with certain HM areas that chew through minions very quickly. In that situation, you either have to give up VampHorror for BoneHorror or supplement VampHorror with a second melee minion (probably Shambling).

Can't really think of anything that would make me do that. Under Masochism my minions are level 20 (21 if the +1 DM mod kicks in) and I typically bring Ebon Battle Standard of Courage.
The only times I can see a potential problem is when facing Ray of Judgement spam - so that's Afflicted (and they're not much of a threat) and the Fleshreavers in Rragar's (which are much more dangerous). In that case you need to consider if it's worth bringing a MM or if two melee minions are really worth it (assuming you're bringing Fiends) - given that against that sort of thing, Shambing Horrors aren't going to last very long (including their Jagged spawns) either and that the real purpose of melee minions is to deter enemies from your Fiends.

dagrdagaz · Mar 14, 2010, 12:05 PM // 12:05

Sofar i am rather satisfied with my Olias build, but i use it in medium difficult NM areas atm.
The minions dont die to fast so they can keep alot of foes busy, and when they do die i benifit from Jagged Bones, Death Nova and Dwayna's Sorrow. And i only need him against alot foes so the rest of my party doesnt get overrun.

I can imagine in more difficult areas and HM it wont suffice.
So this topic is good info for better and other MM and MB builds

Chthon · Mar 14, 2010, 08:26 PM // 20:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Can't really think of anything that would make me do that. Under Masochism my minions are level 20 (21 if the +1 DM mod kicks in) and I typically bring Ebon Battle Standard of Courage.
The only times I can see a potential problem is when facing Ray of Judgement spam - so that's Afflicted (and they're not much of a threat) and the Fleshreavers in Rragar's (which are much more dangerous). In that case you need to consider if it's worth bringing a MM or if two melee minions are really worth it (assuming you're bringing Fiends) - given that against that sort of thing, Shambing Horrors aren't going to last very long (including their Jagged spawns) either and that the real purpose of melee minions is to deter enemies from your Fiends.

The only point in bringing a second melee minion is to reduce the effective recharge on Vamp Horror so that you can keep production of melee minion fodder at pace with the destruction of melee minions. To be clear, I'm not advocating this as a good idea for general-purpose MM builds. It's definitely a grudging use of a skillslot to address a specific problem, and not a broad improvement on the build.

As for which minion to bring, they all have advantages that are roughly equal in their own ways -- Shambling "survives" when AoE wipes your melee minions; BoneHorror has quick recharge and solid armor; BoneMinions are extremely cheap and fast to produce. When I use a third minion, I tend to favor Shambling because losing the whole front line of the minion army to AoE at the same time is what I fear most. Having the Jagged there, if only for a little while before it dies, keeps the monsters off the fiends (and players) and buys me enough time for one of my melee summon skills to recharge.

You can also approach this problem by trying to alter the recharge on Vamp directly with Air of Superiority or EBSoWisdom.

Finally, you can avoid the problem by giving up Vamp altogether and replacing them with Bone Horrors, so long as you've got a backline that's able to handle things when you stomp hard on OoU for the whole battle.