Curse

Cuilan · Jan 23, 2010, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

1) HB MoP nuker

2) Undead Commander - General Build

SoO Variant

Build codes for those builds don't show in those links. Just saying.

Minion "commander" sounds fun.

Chthon · Jan 23, 2010, 10:14 PM // 22:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

I usually have a few deaths myself, but mostly due to my own laziness (trying to bite off too many groups) and/or sucking (like forgetting to maintain PS against the necro boss). There are no problem with the builds themselves if you play them properly.

The fact that a single easy-to-make mistake means you die IS a problem with the builds. While it's not too much to ask that a build require a certain level of execution to work properly, perfect execution is impossible, and therefore unreasonable to expect. Builds that aren't robust enough to recover from a single error have a problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

Except I've tested these builds in the most difficult places I can think of. (If you have more difficult testing zones for H/H, by all means, enlighten.)

Since it's H+H, ridiculous AoE monsters should give you the most trouble. Try Forgewight and those Hound groups in Rragnar's.

Since you seem so adamant about these builds being something special, I'll give them a try. But I've got pretty serious doubts about them.

AtomicMew · Jan 23, 2010, 10:23 PM // 22:23

Quote:

The fact that a single easy-to-make mistake means you die IS a problem with the builds. While it's not too much to ask that a build require a certain level of execution to work properly, perfect execution is impossible, and therefore unreasonable to expect. Builds that aren't robust enough to recover from a single error have a problem.

I don't think making sure you have PS on yourself is expecting much at all. Similarly, you'll want to keep PS up on your derv or sin so I don't see how that's any different. Or if you use frenzy, which you yourself suggested.

It isn't fatal most of the time anyway if it drops every now and then, only against bosses.

I'll give forgewight and Rragar's a try later on. Thanks for those suggestions.

Update:

Forgewight took about 1 hour. Not a good time by any means, but decent for a second try and not being familiar with the dungeon. I did DP out on my first try

Some thoughts:

SY! upkeep is really important, there is almost no room for error. And shout RANGE is important, since I couldn't always cover everything when I was in melee (spear helped a lot). As long as I kept up SY!, Djinn groups weren't so tough. It was really only the combination of Djinn and summit super groups that were a threat.

Possibly, my hero builds could use some work, since they're spirit heavy, which isn't so good against AoE. If anyone has done this dungeon H/H I'd love to hear some thoughts. But yes, this is definitely a step up in difficulty compared to the other dungeons.

ruemere · Jan 29, 2010, 12:29 PM // 12:29

Spirits do pretty good against AOE as long as you have Armor of Unfeeling (halving damage) and Reclaim Essence (recharge all spirit rituals). That's why I favor my Communing Offensive Ritualist (OACjAyhDJPOTlr1MzFt/mbOoJA) over SOS Channeler.

The problem at this moment (for me at least) is keeping SY up. With two players, it's not a problem, but in H/H...

Regards,
Ruemere

HigherMinion · Jan 29, 2010, 01:06 PM // 13:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

Update:

Forgewight took about 1 hour. Not a good time by any means, but decent for a second try and not being familiar with the dungeon. I did DP out on my first try

Some thoughts:

SY! upkeep is really important, there is almost no room for error. And shout RANGE is important, since I couldn't always cover everything when I was in melee (spear helped a lot). As long as I kept up SY!, Djinn groups weren't so tough. It was really only the combination of Djinn and summit super groups that were a threat.

Possibly, my hero builds could use some work, since they're spirit heavy, which isn't so good against AoE. If anyone has done this dungeon H/H I'd love to hear some thoughts. But yes, this is definitely a step up in difficulty compared to the other dungeons.

I hope with this test you've noticed how useful being midline is, as an SY spammer. You can take Soldier's Stance and ebsoh for other heroes. On my paragon (which is essentially what your necromancer will transform into) I run with an OoV/Weapon build (OoV+ splinter, Nightmare, Warmonger) Another command paragon for some more damage buffing, and then my staple ER hero.

Quote:

The problem at this moment (for me at least) is keeping SY up. With two players, it's not a problem, but in H/H...

So what allegiance rank are you running SY! on? I've had no problems with my build; see previous post for that. Also my SY lasts for 6s

Try Mark Of Fury, if you're using an OoV hero.

Jeydra · Jan 29, 2010, 02:15 PM // 14:15

I can't comment on these builds since I don't play Necromancer, but I have this to say:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

The fact that a single easy-to-make mistake means you die IS a problem with the builds. While it's not too much to ask that a build require a certain level of execution to work properly, perfect execution is impossible, and therefore unreasonable to expect. Builds that aren't robust enough to recover from a single error have a problem.

Since it's H+H, ridiculous AoE monsters should give you the most trouble. Try Forgewight and those Hound groups in Rragnar's.

Since you seem so adamant about these builds being something special, I'll give them a try. But I've got pretty serious doubts about them.

Forgewight, Duncan, Vloxen's and Shards of Orr - these are some of the absolute hardest areas in the game that can be H/H'ed. Any build that can safely go through them without resorting to consumables / DP removers is a good build. I definitely think you should treat them with respect, no matter how weird they may seem (think ER when you first saw it - how many players didn't think it would work?).

As for dying to an 'easy-to-make' mistake, you die if you trigger Ooze popups with spiritway unexpectedly - which doesn't make spirits any less powerful in PvE. It's a mistake. You get better and don't make that mistake. Instead of blaming the build you really ought to blame your playing skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

Possibly, my hero builds could use some work, since they're spirit heavy, which isn't so good against AoE. If anyone has done this dungeon H/H I'd love to hear some thoughts. But yes, this is definitely a step up in difficulty compared to the other dungeons.

Forge is one of the hardest areas in the game; I think only Selve (and SoO, if only because of Fendi) compare in difficulty. I don't know what heroes you used, but I've done both of them and uploaded a screenshot here - take a look at it. The screenshot's many months old and my builds have changed since then. I like to think they've gotten better, but as I said above - any build that can H/H Forgewight HM is a good build in my book.

PS: if you want to try your build against the toughest areas in the game, you might want to try Selve. Depending on what build you run it can be harder than Forgewight - most notable would be lengthy areas of the dungeon where you can't have minions, as well as some line-of-sight problems.
PPS: 47 minutes

AtomicMew · Jan 30, 2010, 12:08 AM // 00:08

lol jeydra that's amazing. No idea how you did that without SY! How do you not instantly get demolished by AoE? Also, please post a vid of your playthrough. I'm really quite interested in your tactics.

ruemere · Feb 02, 2010, 12:48 PM // 12:48

If anything, groups of undead in Shards of Orr synergize better than before. Once upon a time, Chained Clerics could not keep up with my artificer mesmer hero and RoJ monks, nowadays the said heroes barely suffice for Normal Mode.

Oh, and my SY lasts 5 seconds (I have never been a fan of farming Luxon rank - only extreme boredom can make me go farming... I have played MU Online for four years and since then I have been hating any kind of grind/farm with passion).

Regards,
Ruemere

shaygo · Feb 03, 2010, 04:47 PM // 16:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

I hope with this test you've noticed how useful being midline is, as an SY spammer. You can take Soldier's Stance and ebsoh for other heroes. On my paragon (which is essentially what your necromancer will transform into) I run with an OoV/Weapon build (OoV+ splinter, Nightmare, Warmonger) Another command paragon for some more damage buffing, and then my staple ER hero.

ok, so using a spear is safer. but your nec/war cant use any paragon skills and cant spec in spear mastery. is it worth it ?

AtomicMew · Feb 03, 2010, 05:09 PM // 17:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by shaygo

ok, so using a spear is safer. but your nec/war cant use any paragon skills and cant spec in spear mastery. is it worth it ?

Depends on the area. In the area of interest (Forgewight) with lots of AoE, it is worth it. Coincidentally, an imbagon shines in this area.

Chthon · Feb 03, 2010, 07:02 PM // 19:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by shaygo

ok, so using a spear is safer. but your nec/war cant use any paragon skills and cant spec in spear mastery. is it worth it ?

Welcome to PvE hard mode. Thanks to monster armor creep, the difference in base damage between 0 spec and 14 spec is trivial because they are both very near zero. Your real damage comes from the armor-ignoring buffs -- EBSoH, Orders, Barbs, etc. -- that a necro is equally able to take advantage of and better able to supply.

Aside from TNtF, what paragon skills are so valuable that you miss having them?

shaygo · Feb 05, 2010, 07:29 AM // 07:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Welcome to PvE hard mode. Thanks to monster armor creep, the difference in base damage between 0 spec and 14 spec is trivial because they are both very near zero. Your real damage comes from the armor-ignoring buffs -- EBSoH, Orders, Barbs, etc. -- that a necro is equally able to take advantage of and better able to supply.

Aside from TNtF, what paragon skills are so valuable that you miss having them?

you are right, I wasn't clear enough.
since you are holding a spear you can't use neither HB nor whirlwind attack.
and since you are not a paragon you can't use a leadership-based IAS.
so what's left from your build ? and again I ask: is it worth it ?

HigherMinion · Feb 05, 2010, 09:29 AM // 09:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by shaygo

ok, so using a spear is safer. but your nec/war cant use any paragon skills and cant spec in spear mastery. is it worth it ?

You do know that almost all good casters wield spears these days? Not many of them have any spear skills or indeed /P secondary. It's simply for the midline position, whilst being able to deal DPS when you are buffed with EBSoH. and it won't just be you in that ward if you place it right. You will need a seperate MoP nuker with this build of course, no room here for 16 curses; and I don't settle for less when it means self-damage mitigation.

Jeydra · Feb 05, 2010, 01:13 PM // 13:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

lol jeydra that's amazing. No idea how you did that without SY! How do you not instantly get demolished by AoE? Also, please post a vid of your playthrough. I'm really quite interested in your tactics.

Sorry for late response, but thanks for praise

I detailed how I did it in my last post in that topic. The point is that if you and all your H/H are bunched into Savannah Heat + Searing Flames + Rodgort's Invocation, you die, +100 armour or no +100 armour. That's why I dislike Ward Against Harm by the way - it just isn't very effective, and you have to dedicate an entire character to use it. The counter to AoE is spreading out. Manually flag heroes and henchmen apart if you have to. If you can do that, and lure the Savannah Heats onto a single target (preferably yourself - otherwise anyone so long as you've micro'ed Prot Spirit on him), then surviving the Flowstones isn't hard. Against the mobs where there are healers to keep Burning Spirits alive, they tend to have lower damage output (because of the Forge Imps) as well as only one healer, so the E/A build can just spike the healer down with Frozen Soil up = gg.

I won't be able to upload a video though. There're just too many things I don't know ... I don't know how to record a video, I don't know how to edit it, don't know how to upload it either ...

@Chthon - the difference between 0 spec and 14 spec isn't nearly zero; I remember Xenos once made this post where he went N/W and tried to H/H Vloxen's, but found he was dealing like 20 damage a hit. After the run failed, he found out he hadn't customized his weapon + didn't meet the weapon req, lol.

Xenomortis · Feb 05, 2010, 01:38 PM // 13:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

@Chthon - the difference between 0 spec and 14 spec isn't nearly zero; I remember Xenos once made this post where he went N/W and tried to H/H Vloxen's, but found he was dealing like 20 damage a hit. After the run failed, he found out he hadn't customized his weapon + didn't meet the weapon req, lol.

I should point out that the 20 damage was when I was under SoH.

It may appear to be small, but the increase from meeting a weapon's requirement is several hundred percent. When under SoH, it's around a 50-100% damage increase depending on crit-rate and enemy AL.

I stopped after killing Bellok on the run you mentioned, nearly DPed out as I wiped at the res shrine and respawned on top of his group.
I did it again with a sword with a lower req and got through to kill Bellok much more easily than before. Annoyingly I hadn't abandoned and retaken the quest and so Bellok didn't drop the key (a bug that happens if you kill Bellok, leave then kill him again). I haven't been since.

syphonus · Feb 05, 2010, 02:20 PM // 14:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Earth

Really, to be serious here. These builds may very well work (this is however not hard to do as you can breeze through PvE with only Mending on your skillbar), but why would you use a Meleemancer instead of a proper Necro build which may be just as fun?

"Proper necro builds" have a huge DPS disadvantage versus melee in H/H. While running a war or sin is simpler, N/W compresses your team sufficiently to be able to run more buffs and general utility. It also means that you don't have to micro MoP intensively, or spec into curses with your war or whatever-- which yields less AoE DPS than your meleemancer.

HigherMinion · Feb 05, 2010, 02:46 PM // 14:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by syphonus

"Proper necro builds" have a huge DPS disadvantage versus melee in H/H. While running a war or sin is simpler, N/W compresses your team sufficiently to be able to run more buffs and general utility. It also means that you don't have to micro MoP intensively, or spec into curses with your war or whatever-- which yields less AoE DPS than your meleemancer.

I don't know... Whenever I h/h as a MoP I seem to do pretty well. I think this meleemancer business is fun, but I can rely on the hench physicals and minions to activate MoP and Barbs, and all the other hexes on my bar. The damage is fine, the hexes activate enough. It's just a bit on the gimmicky side, that's all.

But I have ran several N/W builds before and frontline necros ARE fun to run.

syphonus · Feb 05, 2010, 03:16 PM // 15:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

I don't know... Whenever I h/h as a MoP I seem to do pretty well. I think this meleemancer business is fun, but I can rely on the hench physicals and minions to activate MoP and Barbs, and all the other hexes on my bar. The damage is fine, the hexes activate enough. It's just a bit on the gimmicky side, that's all.

But I have ran several N/W builds before and frontline necros ARE fun to run.

It should only take one human frontliner to deliver as many packets as the rest of the team combined, given the state of AI. Meleemancers are the best option for maximizing the potential of MoP in a strictly H/H situation. Obviously with two players the field changes quite a bit, and that's where a dedicated MoP starts to shine.

Chthon · Feb 05, 2010, 08:54 PM // 20:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by syphonus

It should only take one human frontliner to deliver as many packets as the rest of the team combined, given the state of AI. Meleemancers are the best option for maximizing the potential of MoP in a strictly H/H situation. Obviously with two players the field changes quite a bit, and that's where a dedicated MoP starts to shine.

This is the best and only reason there's any merit to this idea. To summarize: You must rely on yourself to provide both the fulcrum and the leverage because the H+H are too dumb to do either. Except:
1. H+H plus Vanguard Sin usually manages to generate enough packets in the right place. (I doubt the factual premise.)
2. You have to weigh the improved packet spamming ability versus the survivability problems with putting a caster up front. In many/most cases, you're going to lose more than you gain.

In any event, I completely agree that there is no reason at all to run a build like this if you've got even 1 additional human in your team.

shaygo · Feb 12, 2010, 08:31 AM // 08:31

I would like to highlight the spear issue.
as I wrote above, while using a spear you cant use HB or WA.
what do you think of this "spear meleemancer" build :

FGJ, soldier's stance (elite IAS), MoP, tryptophan signet (snare and cover hex), SY!, 3 optionals.

optionals can be:
1 PvE skill (any ebon ward, IAU, BUH, GDA, ebon sin)
1 curse skill (enfeebling blood, shdow of fear, rigor mortis)
1 other (SoLS, res signet)

curses 12+1/+1
SR 9+1
tactics 9

use a spear and a 20/20 curse focus or a tactics shield.