Curse

AtomicMew · Jan 21, 2010, 02:53 AM // 02:53

The purpose of this thread is two-fold.

1) To let people know of strong PvE builds based around the concept of the meleemancer. These builds are for difficult dungeons in Hard Mode H/H play. If you're stuck in easy hard mode, just stick to AP nuking and win.

2) To discuss. (Build concepts, refinements improvements, ideas).

The most basic reason that meleemancers should be considered over casters is SY! Casters, save an ER ele and possibly an AP caller, just cannot compete with combined total of the defense afforded by being able to spam SY! and damage output by blowing stuff up. Also, apart from being profession locked, you should consider them over traditional warriors. The reason is bar compression. There are very few skills that a warrior needs. The essentials are 1) SY! and 2) IAS. That's it. Everything else is optional and designed for utility or more damage. Casters do better in those departments. For example, Strength of Honor adds straight up +25 DPS. 50 DPS if maintain it on more than one person. There is no warrior skill that can even begin to compete with the single target damage except for maybe D-slash, which is elite. You could of course take SoH on a hero. But taking SoH on a Mo/W meleemancer allows you to take an additional copy of splinter weapon, for example. Hence, bar compression.

(Un)constructive Criticism: The following builds ARE tested. If you believe them to "suck" or be subpar, be ready to offer proof (times AND screenshots). Otherwise, please don't waste time.

There are basically two builds that I know of that are not dominated by other builds from other melee professions. These builds are: 1) N/W based around curses/MoP and 2) N/W based around death magic/MM. Both of these builds include FGJ! and SY!. That, combined with the blood hench makes keeping SY! up a non-issue for the most part.

1) HB MoP nuker
IAS is either frenzy or drunken master.
Vloxen level 2, 30 minutes.
More info here: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...t10417753.html

2) Undead Commander - General Build
The main draw of this build is the ability to have twice as many minions, synergizing with a hero MB. For more death nova. That, combined with EBSoH, makes for big, big damage. The second draw is Infuse Condition. This is THE skill that allows you to complete SoO. I don't know of any other necro build that can do it so easily.

SoO Variant
SoO level 1, 15 minutes.

ruemere · Jan 21, 2010, 09:47 AM // 09:47

Oh my god... you have just resurrected Elric of Menilbone.

What equipment do you recommend to follow up with these builds?

Regards,
Ruemere

Calista Blackblood · Jan 22, 2010, 01:55 PM // 13:55

60AR caster-sword-hard mode-frontline. I needn't say more.

Quote:

Mo/W meleemancer

Should I save you embarrassment and just lock the thread now?

Earth · Jan 22, 2010, 04:21 PM // 16:21

Wow, those builds look pretty cool. I'll be sure to try them out. Very creative and original. Thanks so much!

ruemere · Jan 22, 2010, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calista BlackBlood

60AR caster-sword-hard mode-frontline. I needn't say more.

Should I save you embarrassment and just lock the thread now?

Please don't. Wild stuff is fun. After all, if you don't go wild, what else is there left for PvE besides farming after titles go max?

Regards,
Ruemere

PS. Testing builds...

AtomicMew · Jan 22, 2010, 06:49 PM // 18:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calista BlackBlood

60AR caster-sword-hard mode-frontline. I needn't say more.

Should I save you embarrassment and just lock the thread now?

"(Un)constructive Criticism: The following builds ARE tested. If you believe them to "suck" or be subpar, be ready to offer proof (times AND screenshots). Otherwise, please don't waste time. "

Screenshots of you H/H through vloxen, duncan and SoO, please.

Chthon · Jan 22, 2010, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

(Un)constructive Criticism: The following builds ARE tested. If you believe them to "suck" or be subpar, be ready to offer proof (times AND screenshots). Otherwise, please don't waste time.

This is kinda like saying: "Here's my Me/R scythe build. It's awesome. If you think it's not awesome, show me a screenshot of Duncan." That's just silly.

Your meleemancer builds suffer from the same fundamental problem that dogs all meleemancer builds: 60 AL on the frontline. Even with Dark Bond and Protective Spirit and a significant bit of hero space dedicated to bailing you out of trouble, you're going to going to die far too often.

The problem only becomes solvable when you have other live players to cover you with SY! and Prot Bond. (At which point the supposed advantages of meleemancery have evaporated anyway.)

You seem to be sticking your fingers in your ears on this point, but it is what it is. 60AL on the frontline is a no-go.

Now, by way of being constructive:

1. If your goal is to get SY! running on a necro, consider spears. They're safer. They also keep you within shout range of the squishier H+H.

2. If your goal is to deal damage, a Dark Bomber would probably deal more:
Blood of the Aggressor, Dark Pact, Dark Aura, Masochism, AotL, Dark Bond, Mindbender, BuH. Enchant up, run into melee range, cycle BotA and DP like mad. Of course, you're going to run into the exact same survivability issues.

Xenomortis · Jan 22, 2010, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

60 AL on the frontline.

Tormentors + Shield + Defense mod on sword = 83 AL and I can comfortably use my Major Curses rune. Superior if I feel I can cope with the health loss.
Dervishes and Assassins frequently run into the same situations with similar (or less) armour. Prot Spirit is easy enough to micro onto yourself. It has added drawbacks though.

Lusciious · Jan 22, 2010, 10:19 PM // 22:19

i've been using this on my nec whenever i get bored of AP nuking .

Weaken Armour, AP, YMLAD!, Death's Charge, Falling Lotus Strike, Death Blossom, Finish Him!, By Ural's Hammer!.

It's pretty good . it's the only class that can perform this "chain" without energy problems due to soul reaping . by the time you're done with death blossom, your nec heroes would have landed 3 discords on him .

Earth · Jan 22, 2010, 10:40 PM // 22:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Tormentors + Shield + Defense mod on sword = 83 AL and I can comfortably use my Major Curses rune. Superior if I feel I can cope with the health loss.
Dervishes and Assassins frequently run into the same situations with similar (or less) armour. Prot Spirit is easy enough to micro onto yourself. It has added drawbacks though.

With so much armor, shouldn't you use a sup rune? It will make the build even stronger.

Xenomortis · Jan 22, 2010, 11:01 PM // 23:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Earth

With so much armor, shouldn't you use a sup rune? It will make the build even stronger.

If my health is over 500, I'm usually content. Sometimes though, that can feel a little daring. It's much more of a personal thing and +2 damage to MoP is minor concern.
I carry both in the event of death (DP Stacking can make one start to really value health).

ruemere · Jan 23, 2010, 12:10 AM // 00:10

Shards of Orr 1st level test, HM, Heroes + Henchmen:
Main (Necro, Superior Death, Minor Soul Reaping, Sword - Zealous, Defense, Shield: Fortitude, Fire): OAFTUYzQZaqZHU07qYRQOAMQVEA
<pvxbig>
[build prof=N/W death=12 sou=3 swo=12][Sun and Moon Slash][Whirlwind Attack]["Save Yourselves!" (Luxon)]["For Great Justice!"][Infuse Condition][Aura of the Lich][Soul Feast][Drunken Master][/build]
</pvxbig>
Changes:
- Whirlwind Attack - to put all that adrenaline to good use without wasting time for a standard
- Soul Feast - not really necessary

The rest of the team:

Heroes
- Ritualist Spirit Spammer Offensive (not SoS, no channeling or restoration): OACjAyhDJPOTlr1MzFt/mbOoJA
- Necromancer / Ritualist (Order of the Vampire melee healer): OAhjQwGW4OUCoq0cyNMHnV1LGA
- Elementalist / Monk (ER Protter / Smiter): OgNDwsnfO1CahWseMTcJU/5B

Henchmen:
- Mhenlo
- Lina (not sure if she's necessary)
- Eve (to help Lina with energy management, to provide Mark of Fury)
- Herta

Results:
- always go for the Chained Cleric first, it really speeds up things.
- missing the Save Yourselves means nothing. Missing it twice in a row means deaths in the party.
- Infuse Condition is not enough. You cannot keep with spamming minions fast enough.
- monsters die really fast once you kill healers.
- Wizards tend to run away - watch compass not to get carried away.
- Protective Spirit.

Conclusions:
- Elric of Menilbone lives!
- Fun!
- Works as intended.

Regards,
Ruemere

Lusciious · Jan 23, 2010, 01:07 AM // 01:07

Hundred Blades + MoP + WWA is fun .

AtomicMew · Jan 23, 2010, 02:36 AM // 02:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

This is kinda like saying: "Here's my Me/R scythe build. It's awesome. If you think it's not awesome, show me a screenshot of Duncan." That's just silly.....

Even with Dark Bond and Protective Spirit and a significant bit of hero space dedicated to bailing you out of trouble, you're going to going to die far too often.

Except I've tested these builds in the most difficult places I can think of. (If you have more difficult testing zones for H/H, by all means, enlighten.) I've gone through these dungeons without even dying once. So is dying zero times "dying too often?"

60AL is not nearly as bad as people think. Lots of damage will be over the PS cap anyway. As long as you keep up SY!, the ER really only needs to prot you, and if he can't do that, something else is seriously wrong. Besides, dervs and sins have only 10 AL more (Drunken Master is arguably better critical agility, anyway).

Quote:

Infuse Condition is not enough. You cannot keep with spamming minions fast enough.

Yeah, Infuse conditions helps, but it's not as strong as Assassin's Remedy, Sight Beyond Sight or Avatar of Dwayna. Still, it is possibe to make it work effectively. In your build, instead of Aura of the Lich, try Flesh Golem, and also IAU (to prevent KD-rupts). Golem is hardier, which helps, and leaves a body when it dies too. Better yet would be Jagged Bones, but I'm not that great at micro-ing. There aren't really enough bodies in SoO to take full advantage of AotL.

Chthon · Jan 23, 2010, 03:26 AM // 03:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Tormentors + Shield + Defense mod on sword = 83 AL and I can comfortably use my Major Curses rune. Superior if I feel I can cope with the health loss.
Dervishes and Assassins frequently run into the same situations with similar (or less) armour. Prot Spirit is easy enough to micro onto yourself. It has added drawbacks though.

We're talking H+H builds here, since trav is trying to selling meleemancers as a H+H solution. That means we're comparing to what you'd run with H+H on derv or assassin, and there's no SY! or Prot Bond to toughen you up.

An assassin should usually be running Blessed, Critical Agility, and a +5AL weapon mod. That's 70 + 10 + 25 + 5 = 110. Which is ~37% less damage received than at 83AL.

A dervish should be running Windwalkers and a +5AL weapon. That's 70 + 20 + 5 = 95, which is ~19% less damage received than at 83AL. And I happen to find that dervishes are too flimsy for my taste. For H+Hing, I really want to run Conviction and bring them up to 119, but there's rarely bar space for that.

Maxing out at 83AL, I find the necro dangerously fragile. Which they ought to be from a design prospective.

AtomicMew · Jan 23, 2010, 05:39 AM // 05:39

Cthon, you can theorycraft all you want, but the fact is, all of the dungeons are possible with meleemancers H/H with no deaths at all. I usually have a few deaths myself, but mostly due to my own laziness (trying to bite off too many groups) and/or sucking (like forgetting to maintain PS against the necro boss). There are no problem with the builds themselves if you play them properly.

As far as CA, it's much weaker and slower than DM in both duncan and SoO, so really it's like 83 AL vs 86 AL. And that's if you wear blessed. Shattering assault is incredibly powerful in all top tier dungeons, and so radiants are probably better than blessed, because getting in a few more shattering assaults is far more useful than a bit more marginal AL.

Lusciious · Jan 23, 2010, 07:01 AM // 07:01

everything is possible with everything .

my meleemancer is awesome

Earth · Jan 23, 2010, 09:38 AM // 09:38

Really, to be serious here. These builds may very well work (this is however not hard to do as you can breeze through PvE with only Mending on your skillbar), but why would you use a Meleemancer instead of a proper Necro build which may be just as fun?

Or, if you really enjoy being in melee range, why don't you just make a Dervish, a Warrior or an Assassin? :\

Lusciious · Jan 23, 2010, 10:10 AM // 10:10

I only go on my meleemancer if im bored of AP nuking / MM

edit: also no other professions can do this without energy problems except necs and maybe rangers .

Mark of Pain, AP, YMLAD!, Death's Charge, Falling Lotus Strike, Death Blossom, Finish Him!, By Ural's Hammer!.

Deadly arts 8
Dagger mastery 10
Soul reaping 8+1
Curses 10+1+1

AtomicMew · Jan 23, 2010, 06:13 PM // 18:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Earth

Really, to be serious here. These builds may very well work (this is however not hard to do as you can breeze through PvE with only Mending on your skillbar), 1) but why would you use a Meleemancer instead of a proper Necro build which may be just as fun?

2) Or, if you really enjoy being in melee range, why don't you just make a Dervish, a Warrior or an Assassin? :\

Quote:

Originally Posted by me

The most basic reason that meleemancers should be considered over casters is SY! Casters, save an ER ele and possibly an AP caller, just cannot compete with combined total of the defense afforded by being able to spam SY! and damage output by blowing stuff up. Also, apart from being profession locked, you should consider them over traditional warriors. The reason is bar compression. There are very few skills that a warrior needs. The essentials are 1) SY! and 2) IAS. That's it. Everything else is optional and designed for utility or more damage. Casters do better in those departments. For example, Strength of Honor adds straight up +25 DPS. 50 DPS if maintain it on more than one person. There is no warrior skill that can even begin to compete with the single target damage except for maybe D-slash, which is elite. You could of course take SoH on a hero. But taking SoH on a Mo/W meleemancer allows you to take an additional copy of splinter weapon, for example. Hence, bar compression.

To answer your questions simply:
1) SY! and aggro management. On the other hand, I have a hard time AP nuking through top tier dungeons, but maybe that's just me. Have you tried vloxen or SoO with H/H?

2) I've make the case that meleemancers bring more to the table traditional warriors. I won't dispute that sins are better, but that's only because sin are better than everything.