Curse

Xenomortis · Jun 20, 2010, 01:23 PM // 13:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by EssayReader

Xenomortis:

As previously stated in my first post, I'm hoping for equipment that will last me for PvP and PvE.

Also, I looked up damages under the Wiki, and noted that overall, in the PvP metagame as well as just on the list of skills that are given to each class, there are more non-armor ignoring skills than there are armor-ignoring skills.

What level PvP?
Low-level - Eles and the physicals are those that are most likely to succeed at killing you. Eles take a bit of time and good physicals will flatten you if you don't do anything to stop them (Weakness, Curses etc).
In high level PvP, it's really just the Warriors (Sins too, Dervs are quite rare).
A large amount of damage from Warriors and Dervs are from their (armour sensitive) auto-attack damage. Not so true for Assassins, but is 40 health really worth it?

As I said (if only implicitly); if you only want to get one armour set, get Survivor's. It's a good hedge against Death Penalty, something which crops up in the harder PvE stuff and in GvG.
But my advice for trying to do higher level PvP stuff is just to roll a PvP character. Beyond that I'm not qualified to really talk about anything else.

EssayReader · Jun 20, 2010, 01:39 PM // 13:39

Xenomortis:

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But my advice for trying to do higher level PvP stuff is just to roll a PvP character. Beyond that I'm not qualified to really talk about anything else.

Honestly, I've been thinking about this too. The Obsidian Armor just isn't good for a male Necromancer (in my opinion), so I've been thinking about making a female Necromancer for this purpose. Also, we discussed here that Survivor's can be outdone by Tormentor's, and that's why I planned on sticking with it. Death Penalty is not something I worry too much about.

Xiaquin · Jun 24, 2010, 12:04 AM // 00:04

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Originally Posted by EssayReader

Radiant Head Armor of Superior X
Tormentor's Chest Armor of Superior Vigor
Survivor's Gloves of Attunement
Tormentor's Leggings of Attunement
Bloodstained Boots of Minor Soul Reaping

Right off the bat, I will state I play 98% of the time in PvE.

Ok, I know I don't have the best opinion, but this is how I react: Why have +1 energy when you could have anywhere from +5 to +20 armor in the same location? Ditto for the Survivor's (+5hp on gloves). I just don't understand the point of doing that when it's so negligible. I know degen and armor-ignoring damage is a factor, but, it's 1 energy and 5 health.

If I don't get flames for that, I probably will for this: I don't use Survivor's or Tormentor's. I use Undertaker's when possible on myself and heroes. Damage spikes will hurt but overall I believe in having more protection as health goes down. I will use Survivor's more in PvP, but in PvE I am completely off of it as well as Radiant. I leave health/energy to runes and weapon set and have never had unreasonable problems.

Quail Stomp · Jun 24, 2010, 05:32 AM // 05:32

I was wondering if someone would mention undertakers. Its really not that bad of an option for general play.

EssayReader · Jun 24, 2010, 05:41 AM // 05:41

Xiaquin:

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Ok, I know I don't have the best opinion, but this is how I react: Why have +1 energy when you could have anywhere from +5 to +20 armor in the same location? Ditto for the Survivor's (+5hp on gloves). I just don't understand the point of doing that when it's so negligible. I know degen and armor-ignoring damage is a factor, but, it's 1 energy and 5 health.

True, it is small but the builds I run do vary my energy, and honestly I do have like this OCD thing for numbers that aren't like 35, or just a whole number multiple of 5.

Also, as we stated in the first page, you have a higher percentage of getting hit in the chest and the legs, so having the extra armor there is beneficial, in comparison to having the extra health there, which is a small number. Then, we add the extra health and energy elsewhere in order to defend against degeneration and the other sorts. It's also beneficial to us when we are struck in the area with the armor. In this way, the armor protects us, with that extra 5 health or 1 energy being beneficial in our survival.

Quail_Stomp:

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I was wondering if someone would mention undertakers. Its really not that bad of an option for general play.

True, but it requires you to be dying, and that idea in and of itself is just not pleasant to some.

Xenomortis · Jun 24, 2010, 12:24 PM // 12:24

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Originally Posted by Quail Stomp

I was wondering if someone would mention undertakers. Its really not that bad of an option for general play.

It only outdoes Tormentor's when you're health is below 40% - not a comfortable place to be for any Necro build.
And 20 armour at 20% won't save you.

-Makai- · Jun 24, 2010, 12:58 PM // 12:58

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Originally Posted by byteme!

I will only mention the PvE side of this argument because it's the most obvious and non debatable. +Armor rules. With all the consumables (+HP, Dp removal etc..) and titles (Norn) floating around there's no reason not to max out your armor regardless which class you play. Also keep in mind especially in HM where monsters do a retarded amount of damage (even wanding) that the extra armor will come into play ALL THE TIME. Even when you think there's a lot of armor ignoring damage it all comes from the skills and when your enemy isn't using those skills they are auto attacking. +Armor for PvE hands down.

^ This. Not only that, but since we are talking about Necros here, it also makes health sacrifice a tiny bit less taxing on your hero/henchman healers. And let's not forget--if we're talking about PvE--that Prot Spirit benefits from having lower health.

Xiaquin · Jun 24, 2010, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

It only outdoes Tormentor's when you're health is below 40% - not a comfortable place to be for any Necro build.
And 20 armour at 20% won't save you.

In the same vein, it will match Tormentor's once you go below 60%, and has no penalty. I know holy damage in PvE isn't everywhere, but it's enough that I would want a second set of armor for areas where there is a lot of it flying around.

And one more comment about Survivor's: 1 pip of degen is 2 health lost per second. An average skill that can inflict 3 degen (bleeding) will take less than one extra second to kill you with +5 hp. Compared to a full Survivor's set (40hp) it would take max degen 2 seconds extra to kill you. IMO, go all or nothing if you want health.

Voodoo Rage · Jun 24, 2010, 04:56 PM // 16:56

It there any definitive rule about whether monsters target the member of the group with the lowest armor or the lowest health?

**Marty Silverblade** · Jun 24, 2010, 11:48 PM // 23:48

Armor and health are both factors. It's basically impossible to find out which, if either, is weighted more or less than the other. As such, no one can really give a definitive answer. The difference and absolute levels are also an issue. Just saying 'lowest health or lowest armor' adds another level of complexity.

EssayReader · Jun 25, 2010, 03:45 AM // 03:45

Marty Silverblade:

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Armor and health are both factors. It's basically impossible to find out which, if either, is weighted more or less than the other. As such, no one can really give a definitive answer. The difference and absolute levels are also an issue. Just saying 'lowest health or lowest armor' adds another level of complexity.

I thought monsters always did the math and targeted the easier-to-kill target, which, has never been me even if I go up front, they just run by me.

Xenomortis · Jun 25, 2010, 12:33 PM // 12:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

In the same vein, it will match Tormentor's once you go below 60%, and has no penalty. I know holy damage in PvE isn't everywhere, but it's enough that I would want a second set of armor for areas where there is a lot of it flying around.

Yes, but you don't want to be hanging around with there in any case.
The condition for Undertaker's is worse and more awkward than the caveat on Tormentor's so really you need to consider the case when Undertaker's does better than Tormentor's and it does so only below 40% health.

Facing enough Holy Damage for Tormentor's to be detrimental means your facing enough armour ignoring damage for extra armour to be a waste - the answer is to switch to your Survivor's set, not buy an extra set.

Desert Rose · Jun 25, 2010, 03:08 PM // 15:08

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Originally Posted by JonnieBoi05

In case you (the OP) or anyone else reading this is wondering why I put +armor insignias on the chest/legs, it's because those 2 locations are hit the most frequent; hence you get the most benefit from having +armor on your chest/legs rather than your head, arms and feet.

Marty already explained it why this logic is flawed, but I want to make it more clear.
If in a specific scenario +armor on chest (or any other armor piece) is better than +health so will +armor also be better on any other armor piece, and vice versa. A +health/+armor mix will in the long run always be inferior to either pure +health or +armor.
Find out in which scenarios +health is better, in which scenarios +armor, and how likely each scenario will happen. Equip your entire armor with the same insignia which is better in the most likely scenarios; don't use a mix.

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Originally Posted by Voodoo Rage

It there any definitive rule about whether monsters target the member of the group with the lowest armor or the lowest health?

Each Monster attacks the target it can kill the quickest, which is determined by the time the moster needs to get into attack range, armor and health. In general +armor makes you harder to kill than +health, so you will be attacked rarer if you have +armor than +health.

Tormentor's gives fixed +10 armor, holy damage is rare and low or easily avoided, that makes it the best choice for nearly any non MM/MB necro.

Xiaquin · Jun 25, 2010, 04:00 PM // 16:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Facing enough Holy Damage for Tormentor's to be detrimental means your facing enough armour ignoring damage for extra armour to be a waste - the answer is to switch to your Survivor's set, not buy an extra set.

Wait, we're all supposed to be carrying Survivor sets?

**Marty Silverblade** · Jun 26, 2010, 12:40 AM // 00:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by EssayReader

Marty Silverblade:
I thought monsters always did the math and targeted the easier-to-kill target, which, has never been me even if I go up front, they just run by me.

They do. He/she was asking whether monsters will go after the person with the lowest health or the lowest armor. Not if monsters will ignore your big armor, big health frontliners.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desert Rose

Marty already explained it why this logic is flawed, but I want to make it more clear.
If in a specific scenario +armor on chest (or any other armor piece) is better than +health so will +armor also be better on any other armor piece, and vice versa. A +health/+armor mix will in the long run always be inferior to either pure +health or +armor.
Find out in which scenarios +health is better, in which scenarios +armor, and how likely each scenario will happen. Equip your entire armor with the same insignia which is better in the most likely scenarios; don't use a mix.

That wasn't my point. The point you are making is somewhat opinionated; if someone wanted another 10 health (for whatever reason) they could throw a survivor on the legs rather than a +armor. However, the point of doing so is questionable (as you note).

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Originally Posted by Xiaquin

Wait, we're all supposed to be carrying Survivor sets?

Ideally yes. You don't need one, but it's optimal for areas where armor ignoring damage significantly outweighs the armor affected damage. Key word here is optimal, not necessary. Besides, if you're maxing out your HoM, you'll have at least 5 sets.

Xenomortis · Jun 26, 2010, 02:09 AM // 02:09

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Originally Posted by Xiaquin

Wait, we're all supposed to be carrying Survivor sets?

As I explained in my first post in this thread, I recommend a full Survivor's set be obtained first. Whilst extra armour may be preferable to wear, I recommend getting the extra armour set after the Survivor's set.

Chthon · Jun 26, 2010, 02:44 AM // 02:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voodoo Rage

It there any definitive rule about whether monsters target the member of the group with the lowest armor or the lowest health?

Quote:

Originally Posted by EssayReader

Marty Silverblade:

I thought monsters always did the math and targeted the easier-to-kill target, which, has never been me even if I go up front, they just run by me.

1. First off, there are other factors hat go into the target selection, most notably travel time to target (which incorporates proximity and relative speed).

2. In a sense, yes the monsters "do the math." The difficult question is: How do they do the math? Do they pretend all their damage is armor-sensitive? Do they pro-rate their expected damage among armor types according to their ability to deal damage? Do they factor into account their allies damage types? Etc. It's really beyond the players' ability to construct an experiment to determine. My theory is that they use a relatively simple equation that resembles my old BADITTKY(v1) model: BADITTKY = HP/(2^((Baseline - Armor)/40)).

3. Another theory based on my observations is that the monster AI uses a "satisfice" model when it comes to the squishiness factors in target selection. Any target that's weak enough to score a "good hit" against is weak enough; there's no finer distinction.

The Black Leach · Jul 13, 2010, 01:58 PM // 13:58

You gotta have more than one set of armor if you want to be a good Necromancer.

At any rate, for Blood, Curses, and SR bars, I wear a set of armor that rocks Tormentor's Insignias unless I know ahead of time that I will be fighting against holy damage.

Carinae · Sep 01, 2010, 07:02 AM // 07:02

Regarding Necro insignias:

For a MM: Tormentors or Minion Master's. The Tormentors penalty is fine here, because as a MM you want to avoid Holy damage anyway. You basically have a similar restriction as your minions. I'd say that MM insignia is probably the better choice however.

For Orders: Blessed, hands down.

For Curses, all flavors: It depends.....

One thing that is missing from this conversation is this: Will you have SY in the party? If not, Tormentors. If so, run Survivors. Armor IS better than health, however, if you can get your armor from SY, then take the health insignias and have the best of BOTH.

~600 hp @ 160 al makes everyone happy and covers all the bases at once.

EssayReader · Sep 03, 2010, 05:42 AM // 05:42

I'm more a PvPer and only PvE to help guild/alliance mates or to get some quick cash, so "Save Yourselves!" isn't something I'm too worried about.