Curse

Moonstalker · Jan 16, 2011, 12:30 PM // 12:30

It's a toss up!
I love the Necro's SS spell, and the idea of being a MM - But I usually use heroes for that, because honestly, MM is kind of boring to run.
Shadow damage is armor ignoring which is great for Warriors or buffed enemies, which is another bonus. And one skill: MoP.

But on the other hand, Mesmer has the same idea: Good AoE that is armor ignoring, and ways to shut down irritating enemies like monks or AoE spamming eles in HM.

The one thing that bugs me is I see Mesmers used for more end-game variations than necros - Will I be limited if I choose necro?

Anyway, opinions on the matter would be great

Thanks in advance

Anshuri · Jan 16, 2011, 01:31 PM // 13:31

Personally i prefer necro. I've played a lot of end game with my necro, and i find them pretty useful for most things. Soul reaping is a great attribute which provides great energy management without having to bring special skills along, like you have to do with a mesmer for example. Soul reaping allows you to be a fairly good healer as well if its needed by using Rt as your secondary and spam heals with nearly limitless energy. If you still feel short on energy, SoLS is a great way to gain energy.

Mesmer isn't a bad profession at all, i have one myself, however i get a feeling that there's more different kinds of builds available for a necro than for a mesmer. Now im thinking more about builds that people would request for teams in more endgame content. Farming builds can be put together with basically any profession

Spiritz · Jan 16, 2011, 02:04 PM // 14:04

Both have their pros an cons but you need to consider one thing - necros have for last few years always been in many teams ( uw/fow etc ) but only since maybe 9 months to 1 yr almost mesmers have been brought back into the game and into more end game areas due to mesmer buff we had.So if anet nerfed a few mes skills in the comming months dont be surprised if mesmers fall out of grace.
Also Anshuri is right about the amount of builds - necros seem to be more versatile for builds where mesmers have a handfull sadly

Jesuve · Jan 16, 2011, 02:14 PM // 14:14

Both are good, but I would choose mesmer, just because it's unique. I think necromancer really is a bit too limited. Mesmer is really much fun to play, but I find it more difficult than necromancer.

Captain Bulldozer · Jan 16, 2011, 02:15 PM // 14:15

I personally find that the game is easier on a necro. The damage output they can produce is just amazing, and they have (after recent updates) a lot more support through the blood line if you're so inclined.

That being said, I've always found mesmer much more fun to play (even before the buff). My title character has been my mesmer and its hard to imagine doing it differently. All skill damage from mesmer skills is armor ignoring, and fast casting is actually very nice after the buff. As long as you have good energy management, you can blow stuff up all day long. Also, despite what some will say, interrupting can be highly useful in PvE (in PvP its insane).

Whichever you play you can rock Guild Wars, so just pick one and have fun with it. As a side note, if you pick Necro, don't even bother trying to play as an MM. ZThe difficulty of selecting a minion (let alone seeing their health and therefor knowing a good one to death nova) really makes a human MM far less effective than a hero. Good hunting!

Boogz · Jan 16, 2011, 02:21 PM // 14:21

Mesmers are far superior in gameplay to necros, specially if you enjoy PvP

if you enjoy PvP and have a low ping, roll mesmer by all means. if you only have medium/high ping, necro is probably your best choice.

Personally I love both of 'em, but I think the mesmer is superior; a lot of necro builds that you can run on PvE can be done by heroes with the same quality, and sometimes they're even better than human players ( N/Rt resto healers with SolS and minion bombers). I belive only SS/MoPs are superior when humans, because heroes will often throw them on random targets, while humans are capable of prioritizing.

On the other hand, mesmer's gameplay is simply awesome, they have tons of options avaliable; on some builds they are superior to human players (specially at interrupts, AI's cry of frustration and psychi instability are merciless).

I think both necro and mesmer are excellent options for both PvE and PvP, but mesmers outhsine necros by far on PvP, while necros are much better when it comes to farming. If you're focusing on PvE, necro; if focusing on PvP, mesmer.

edit: you can roll SS as mesmer just fine, fast casting + inspiration magic for e-management

Fate Crusher · Jan 16, 2011, 02:26 PM // 14:26

If you're worried about High-end PvE, don't limit yourself to one character. Sure it's slightly annoying to level and progress a character to high-end areas even if they're not your main, but it means you can still play in High-end.

For example, my main is my Assassin, he has all the max titles and everything an Assassin can dream about. But I don't do High-end with him because i'm a crap SF tanker. I have my monk and my ritualist ready for all High-end PvE so i can contribute in those ways.

If you enjoy playing mesmer, you get the bonus of bringing a Panic build for most HM/High-end areas. If you enjoy Necro that much, you're probably going to need to make another character if you really want to join in on the High-end areas.

P.S. High-end areas are not required for anything apart for your own enjoyment and farming items. Such as DoA, people farm that for armbraces and not for character progression. By this, i mean you don't have to invest much money into a character to farm your money (like cheap armour sets and such).

wilebill · Jan 16, 2011, 04:12 PM // 16:12

Mesmer is great for PvP. Rolled mine back at the beginning of Prophecies and he's finished 3 chapters and the Eye. Mesmers do work in PvE, but it varies with the patch in force ... a lot!

Necromancer is my vote for a consistent PvE experience. Mesmer for PvP if you like inspiring a lot of player hate! Though Necros in PvP can ruin your whole day, no doubt of it!

And what everyone else has said, let the hero necro do the MM side. Truth is, they do it a lot better and it is a very boring job.

maxxfury · Jan 16, 2011, 04:18 PM // 16:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilebill

let the hero necro do the MM side. Truth is, they do it a lot better and it is a very boring job.

A player will Minion MASTER way way way better than a hero.. provided you can play aggressively. Throws OoU into the mix with Ebsoh!

Minion BOMBING on the other hand is so dull and micro heavy...Heroes do it better, they dont fall asleep, dont miss click, and can tell which minion needs a nova.....a player cant ever hope to keep up with a hero doin this...

LifeInfusion · Jan 16, 2011, 06:14 PM // 18:14

Necros
--------
Necros have soul reaping, which in PvE is broken. The fact you can maintain 4 copies of Strength and honor and use no energy management is a testament to this. Signet of Lost Souls basically augments this further.

They also have Barbs, which is broken with 10 minions and/or multiple physicals (or sin spam). Order of Pain/Order of the Vampire and Blood Bond are also pretty ridiculous with melee heavy teams. Mark of Pain is only strong with with Assassin's Promise and it causes scatter if it doesn't nuke properly.

Necros have Weaken armor, which makes elementalists suck less and melee/rangers/paragons do more damage.

If you go the reactive hexing route you have Spiteful Spirit or Spoil Victor (use on healers and hard mode).

If you the MM route, Order of Undeath isn't all that bad with Vampiric Horrors and fiends and EBSoH.

Also with the nerf to Draw conditions and the buff to Angorodon's Gaze, Foul Feast is extremely powerful for party support. With Dark Fury and Orders you have a large damage multiplier for your team.

Basically a necro affords you flexibility whatever the meta (in PvE at least) since the primary attribute isn't situational. They play nice with all other professions: Assassins, Warriors, Dervishes, Paragons, Ritualists, Monks, Mesmers, Rangers, Elementalists as long as you don't run SS with a Panic mesmer.

Mesmers
----------
Mesmers have Fast Casting, which in PvE isn't as broken since it only affects 2 second+ casts of non-mesmer stuff. (recharge reduction of mesmer skills is nice but not absolutely broken)
* 3 second activation non Mesmer: Churning earth, Dragon Stomp/Earthquake, Kinetic Armor, Death Pact Signet, Rotting Flesh, Well of the Profane
o Animate Bone Horror, Animate Bone Fiend, Animate Bone Minions, Animate Flesh Golem, Animate Shambling Horror, Animate Vampiric Horror don't count
* 4 second activation: Flesh of My Flesh, Light of Dwayna, Renew Life, Restore Life, Vengeance, rebirth, Resurrect
* 5 second activation: Meteor Shower, Signet of Return
* 6 second activation: Lively was Naomei, Resurrection Chant

From the list above, only resses are really standing out and ressing is pretty much out of favor since we have Unyielding Aura. For 2 second casts, there's a lot of them. Spiteful Spirit, Barbs, Blood Ritual, Price of Failure, Wither, Soul Leech, Gaze of contempt, Aegis, Ray of Judgement, Judge's Insight, Heal party (no point), Lightning Orb (Me/E fast cast in PvP), Unsteady Ground, Stoneflesh Aura, Meteor, Savannah's Heat, Deep Freeze, Ice Spikes, Weapon of Quickening, Spirit Rift, Shameful Fear, Signet of Twilight, etc.

Mesmer skills like Diversion, Backfire, Ether Nightmare, Signet of Humility are pretty unusable without fast casting.

Mesmers themselves have Keystone signet, Psychic Instability, Panic (useless in areas where mobs are spread out), E-surge, VoR (reactive hexing...). Reactive hexes such as Ineptitude, Wandering Eye, Clumsiness, Signet of Clumsiness, Mistrust, and Empathy are quite usable. Interrupts like Power spike, cry of frustration, and cry of pain are pretty strong as well. Shutdown isn't as useful as blowing things up with a Necro though.

Overload, Wastrel's Demise, Unnatural Signet and accumulated pain are decent. Unlike necromancers, you get access to deep wound without "Finish Him!". Arcane Conundrum is underrated due to few Illusion magic mesmers. It is shutdown and energy management in one (all you need to do is cast it on a mob with 2+ enemies). Drain enchantment is another great bar compression (removes enchant, gains energy, heals).

Ancestor's Visage, Sympathetic Visage are ridiculously strong, it's just not used normally unless it's a farming build: -3 energy nullifies 13 critical strikes and emptying adrenaline means no adrenaline attacks for warriors. Fragility and Fevered Dreams need the support of a team.

In Prophecies, Wastrel's Worry spam is decent damage (100/sec) against bosses. For homogenous mobs, Complicate and Mirror of disenchantment counters spell spam and enchantments from Dervishes. Power lock makes Magebane shot look crappy.

In terms of party support, your only real options are Stolen Speed, Expel Hexes (better on a P/Me I believe), Hex eater Vortex, and Fragility. It is not even close to what the necro offers.

Summary
If I'm playing in a party I want a good necro. A good mesmer just makes things quicker in terms of shutdown/interrupts but a good necro augments the damage done by everyone. The former is useful some of the time, the latter is always useful. So if you bring a mesmer, don't bring a second monk. A mesmer decreases incoming damage while doing more offensively than a monk.

DoA is a special case since the mobs hit so ridiculously hard. If you needed healing 2 monks, a Panic mes, an imbagon, and a ST ritualist for every area in the game for Hard mode it would be a terrible game. In every single vanquish I just run a mesmer and one monk (+ spot heals like Spirit Light/Mend Body & Soul on the SoS ritualist who has way too much excess energy due to Spirit Siphon).

Bellatrixa · Jan 16, 2011, 06:20 PM // 18:20

Good points made about about the versatility and amazing energy management of Necros. I'll add more of a personal story into the mix:

3 years ago, I didn't play Guild Wars but my then boyfriend did. He was trying to get me interested in the game with the intent of getting me an account and having me play with him as he was an anti-social bastard who exclusively PvPed but had no friends in game (due to being an anti-social bastard in general; even on Guru). At the time I wanted to play a Mesmer. He told me that they were useless but I didn't care. I liked the idea of the class, the rarity of them and the girly part of me loved the armour. My ex had every profession aside from a Mesmer and the character that interested me the most was his Necro. She wasn't his main character, but the ability to run some devastating hexes as well as command your own army? I was interested to say the least...

Jump forward to October last year when I got a new laptop and thought "You know what, I'll finally buy Guild Wars after all these years." I sat down at the character creation screen and was about to make my Mesmer when a couple of things popped into my head: the damage I had seen from SS and MoP plus the fact that I had been told by my ex that Mesmers were a tricky class for beginners. Deciding that actually yes, Necros were pretty damn interesting and that maybe I could make my Mesmer after I was a bit more familiar with the game (one thing to watch someone play for 2 years, quite another to play it yourself).

My Necro is my main, most played, most spoilt and most worked on character. Most of the time she runs an SS bar (I curse a lot IRL so I thought it was fitting), MMs when wanting more of a challenge (I actually find Death Nova becomes something I either can't be bothered with or start developing an ESP-like perception for what's going to die next; plus it's fun to put on party members for the "OH THANKS!" you get from them ;D) and on the occasions that I've run a blood build, I've enjoyed it (soloing Duncan with SV is entertaining). I've had pugs ask me things like "can u sos plz?" to which I've generally replied "lolno".

My Necro does high end, elite areas and the only thing she's not needed much for is SCs which I don't have much of an interest in doing anyway (it'd be nice to DoASC for a tormented weapon but tbh, I don't want to DwG and I can wait on that as I'm not in a huge rush, plus I'll just take another character). I can let that slide for the hours of fun I have playing her and the buzz I get from doing say, Urgoz and seeing my screen fill with 42s and 37s when enemies are balled and someone hits my SSed MoP. The eerie chuckle on Vent is usually a sign to my guildies that "Bella has just had her screen raped by numbers...."

I personally find that no matter what I'm doing, my Necro has a job that she can do be it buffing with blood, damage/condition/hex spreading or using my minions as meat shield. I've not regretted my class choice and some day I'll get my Mesmer past Lv 3. Right now I'm just having too much damn fun.

Don't get me wrong, Mesmers are awesome but for me, my heart really lies with my Necro <3

NerfHerder · Jan 16, 2011, 06:41 PM // 18:41

As a player you can use SS much more effectively than a Hero. And, I dont see the AP MoP nuker being nerfed anytime soon. You can also provide orders in physical heavy groups. There are still even more specific builds that find use in high end PvE. Not to mention, hex stacking and condition spamming. So, unless your running a terrible build or your team is a bunch of idiots, you should never have trouble finding room for your Necro in PvE.

Mesmers have just as much to bring to the table. Asking to determine which is better, is like having to choose between pie and cake. Its all good, and the real answer is according to personal taste. I suggest both!

Moonstalker · Jan 16, 2011, 06:59 PM // 18:59

Thank you all for the input, I appreciate it. And the story :P Thanks, Bellatrixa.
I think I'm going to start with a necro. I like their versatility. I'll have to make a mesmer later. Not like I don't have time... GW2 won't be here for another millennium.

EDIT: Now then.. which Campaign to start in?.. Hrm..

Daesu · Jan 16, 2011, 07:12 PM // 19:12

I should balance this thread by saying something nice about the mesmer.

Sure, the necro has good skills, but their skills can be effectively used (or sometimes more effectively used) by necro heroes. In fact, a human mesmer + some necro heroes would be a stronger combination because the mesmer now has certain abilities that the necro doesn't.

A mesmer skills faster recharge and arcane echo combined with devastating pve skills makes the mesmer one of the most powerful characters damage-wise.

Check this out:

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:Me/A...Promise_Spiker

LifeInfusion · Jan 16, 2011, 07:29 PM // 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bellatrixa

My Necro does high end, elite areas and the only thing she's not needed much for is SCs which I don't have much of an interest in doing anyway (it'd be nice to DoASC for a tormented weapon but tbh, I don't want to DwG and I can wait on that as I'm not in a huge rush, plus I'll just take another character)

http://www.gwpvx.com/Build:Team_-_DoA_Trenchway

For UW, FoW, Deep/Urgoz /anything else there's pretty much a necro in every build, even if it is for BiP. The only thing more ubiquitous is a monk in areas outside of UW (where it is dominated by E/Mo bonders).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

A mesmer skills faster recharge and arcane echo combined with devastating pve skills makes the mesmer one of the most powerful characters damage-wise.

Why does faster recharge matter on an AP bar? Cry of Pain isn't as devastating as MoP and it needs a filler skill (Fragility) to prime it. Since the only conditions you put out are Deep wound and cracked armor ("FH!"), it only triggers Fragility twice for a total of 14 damage (one hit of barbs), 4 times (28 damage) if your FH! doesn't get the finishing blow and you miss AP. The only thing better is that you can Arcane echo 'Sin support.

Daesu · Jan 16, 2011, 07:53 PM // 19:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

Why does faster recharge matter on an AP bar? Cry of Pain isn't as devastating as MoP and it needs a filler skill (Fragility) to prime it. Since the only conditions you put out are Deep wound and cracked armor ("FH!"), it only triggers Fragility twice for a total of 14 damage (one hit of barbs), 4 times (28 damage) if your FH! doesn't get the finishing blow and you miss AP. The only thing better is that you can Arcane echo 'Sin support.

Because AP doesn't always get triggered, there will be times when AP is removed or the target dies before you cast AP. Another reason is, AP can only be triggered if the target dies, while the mesmer still gets the recharge advantage even before the target dies. Yet another reason: if your AP triggers before the echoed spell is gone, then your arcane echo would still go through recharge cycle after 20s of holding the copied spell.

You forgot that MoP can be brought by a hero and micro-ed if needed while CoP can't. Furthermore, MoP synergizes even better with multiple ebon sins which deal damage and provide defense. Fragility is used mostly for priming CoP than for actual damage. It can also be used as a cover hex for AP.

This is an example of a build that can only be used effectively by a human character, while most of the effective necro builds can be used by necro heroes whom you can bring along, no matter what your profession is. Even though an AP-MoP necro is also very powerful, a N/A can't bring arcane echo.

Outerworld · Jan 16, 2011, 10:22 PM // 22:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

Fragility and Fevered Dreams need the support of a team.

If your running FD you should be applying the conditions yourself.

Xenomortis · Jan 17, 2011, 01:16 AM // 01:16

Necromancers can run a build that works on the same principles Mesmer builds often focus on.
Necromancers get AP-MoP and can boost physicals like tomorrow.
Mesmers get a sort of fun AP build that's probably more suited to H/Hing than AP-MoP.
Necromancers get significantly more powerful energy management.
Necromancers get better armour insignias.
Necromancers can run minions and OoU is one of the strongest damage builds in the game.

But, perhaps most significantly;
Mesmers look better than Necromancers.

Moonstalker · Jan 17, 2011, 01:35 AM // 01:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Mesmers look better than Necromancers.

I wholeheartedly disagree! :P
Females, sure. I think all the males are terrible looking, and their armors. Iiiicckk.

Xenomortis · Jan 17, 2011, 01:56 AM // 01:56

Pfft.
Here's the best the Female Nec gets:

You can also mix Obsidian with a couple of the others.

Now here are some of the Mesmer's options:

The default green isn't very tasteful though.
And Male Mes to Male Nec isn't even fair.

If you still disagree, then you've already made your choice on which profession to make.