Curse

Chthon · Jun 19, 2010, 01:46 AM // 01:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lishy

AoTL and Masochism is awesome on heroes in my opinion. What's better than an 11 minion army of exploding horrors for massive damage?

Although Order of Undeath looks awesome with bone fiends. It's too bad they're 25 energy and have such low armor..

At level 20 (which is what 16+Maso produces) Fiends have 60 AL -- the same as all the caster hench and all the caster players and heroes running around with survivor or radiant armor.

Xenomortis · Jun 19, 2010, 11:13 AM // 11:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

At level 20 (which is what 16+Maso produces) Fiends have 60 AL -- the same as all the caster hench and all the caster players and heroes running around with survivor or radiant armor.

They'll have more if a +1 DM mod kicks in.

Jeydra · Jun 19, 2010, 02:57 PM // 14:57

There are several reasons why I use AotL as the elite on the Minion Bomber -

1. Lack of a competitive alternative. What else is there? Divert Hexes is generally not necessary because hexes in PvE are generally not dangerous. Empathic Removal / Signet of Removal is again not necessary; condition removal is better served by Mend Body And Soul. Jagged Bones is 1 minion every 15s - that's worse than AotL. As for Discord, well I've not seriously used this as the elite, but the hero does have other things to do other than cast Discord (i.e. cast Death Nova and Animate Bone Minion). In this is another advantage of AotL - the hero has more time to cast other things.

2. AotL raises minions from nothing. That means if worst comes to worst you can go AFK and 10 minutes later you'll have a sizable minion army to use. In more common scenarios, it also means that you'll generally never enter a battle without at least one and possibly more minions to tank with. Not usually critical, but it's a nice plus.

3. AotL can make for some nice minion bombs. If you cast it and already have 11 minions, you guarantee that at least one of your minions will explode. Which increases your team's damage output (not to mention can cause some spectacular explosions if 3+ of the minions explode). It's not a lot, but it's better than nothing.

4. This one is subtle but quite important. Having minions is important. If you enter battle with 11 minions, you can expect the mobs to die really fast. It also means that you can aggro two mobs at a time because the minions will empower you enough to overwhelm them. However, to get this high DPS, the minions need also to die. Because you're fighting two groups at once, they will die fast. But if they die, you don't have the tanks necessary anymore to tank the surviving monsters. This is where AotL comes in. Animate Bone Minions can't replace the minions fast enough, but AotL can.

A similar thing applies if you're already fighting one mob when a second mob aggros on you. Of course when this kind of thing happens you can make sure not to aggro the second mob in the first place, but AotL allows you to aggro them and live. You can go from 3 minions left to 8+ minions in 2 seconds, and they're the more durable kind that will last longer. Can Jagged Bones generate enough minions to do this? No. Can Signet of Removal keep you alive if you aggro two mobs? No. What about Empathic Removal? No. But AotL can.

That's why I use AotL. If anyone has a different, better skill to use instead of AotL on the hero, post and I'll try it out.

Mintha Syl · Jun 19, 2010, 03:28 PM // 15:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

There are several reasons why I use AotL as the elite on the Minion Bomber -

...

if this was an election you'd ahve my vote for sure

Chthon · Jun 20, 2010, 06:20 PM // 18:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Jagged Bones is 1 minion every 15s - that's worse than AotL.

?!?!

How is 1 minion every 47 sec better than 1 minion every 16 sec?

Dusk_ · Jun 20, 2010, 06:32 PM // 18:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

?!?!

How is 1 minion every 47 sec better than 1 minion every 16 sec?

AotL is a guaranteed minion every 47 seconds, an increased minion level, and can make an army instantly.

Jagged Bones is a chance at a minion every 15 second, with the hope that your healing H/H's are smart enough not to red-bar the target (which they aren't).

Chthon · Jun 21, 2010, 03:44 AM // 03:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusk_

AotL is a guaranteed minion every 47 seconds, an increased minion level, and can make an army instantly.

Jagged Bones is a chance at a minion every 15 second, with the hope that your healing H/H's are smart enough not to red-bar the target (which they aren't).

1. JB lasts 30 sec. Olias is at least smart enough to pick an elderly minion. I rather doubt the H+H healers are going to keep one standing long enough for JB to expire.

2. Increased minion level is great for a minion master. It's nearly pointless for a minion bomber. The extra damage on DN is worth more to a bomber than the extra level on the minions.

3. The only situation where AotL can make an army instantly is one where Animate Bone Minions could make an army almost as quickly -- or rather, should have already made one during AotL's long recharge.

4. As best I can tell, Jeydra was directly comparing the rate of minion production.

Dusk_ · Jun 22, 2010, 06:50 AM // 06:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

1. JB lasts 30 sec. Olias is at least smart enough to pick an elderly minion. I rather doubt the H+H healers are going to keep one standing long enough for JB to expire.

2. Increased minion level is great for a minion master. It's nearly pointless for a minion bomber. The extra damage on DN is worth more to a bomber than the extra level on the minions.

3. The only situation where AotL can make an army instantly is one where Animate Bone Minions could make an army almost as quickly -- or rather, should have already made one during AotL's long recharge.

4. As best I can tell, Jeydra was directly comparing the rate of minion production.

1) You'd think so, but try watching it in practice. I've almost never seen a Jagged Horror being created while between mobs, even when specifically waiting on Olias to let him cast the thing. The healers are absolutely infuriating when it comes to healing minions. Plus, AotL is minion creation, and JB is replacement. In the time it takes to run between mobs, you'll have a slightly increased army, instead of a size-maintained one (unless luck out with a Shambling Horror).

2) Minions die fast no matter what level they are. Stronger minions doesn't hamper bombing ability under any circumstances, but increased level will let them get closer to enemies, deal a little more damage, and space out deaths just that little bit better to actually allow Death Novas before they explode.

3) It doesn't happen consistently, but it happens often enough that it makes a difference. Waiting for 4 casts of Bone minions (and having a depleted energy tank) is starkly different than raising an instant army, especially since AotL makes them all fresh and strong at once.

4) If so, then AotL is not "1 minion every 47 seconds", unless you're in a corpseless zone.

Countess Marie · Jun 22, 2010, 07:11 PM // 19:11

AoL is the best MM skill period; it's hax. On heroes, you need to just micro it.

First minion--> kill first group--> make army--> kill next group--> refresh minions and energy completely. I use dark bond and cover it with AoL and Masochism. And use /R for SQ (the best 3 point skill in the game!)

I can see the argument for OoU, but that takes awhile to get rolling. As someone who has done MMing forever, I can say that AoL is the best skill for keeping up minions. You just have to make sure your hero uses it at the right time.

AoL and Masochism are the sole reasons why MM( and death magic in general) is more viable than it ever was.

-CM

Jeydra · Jun 23, 2010, 03:52 PM // 15:52

@Chthon - I did not think about it that way, but ...

Increased minion level is great for everyone. Maybe, theoretically, if you have lower level minions they explode more often and so you deal more damage. But somehow that doesn't hold in practice. If the minions stay alive they stay to tank damage, and if they tank damage then you won't take any deaths. Also AotL can make more minions than Animate Bone Minions with each cast easily. Over the duration of 45 seconds, of course it can't, but with each cast you can easily get more than 2 minions.

However you look at it, I know from experience that AotL > Jagged Bones. The practical results are simply better with AotL than with Jagged Bones. The difference may not be huge, but it is definitely noticeable. I can't say the same for Discord for example (never really tried Discord), but I can for Jagged Bones. As a practical matter there's no reason to use Jagged Bones instead of AotL on the MB.

Countess Marie · Jun 24, 2010, 01:25 AM // 01:25

It also depends on how your are killing. If you aren't killing then minions would be better... but if you are absolutely rolling then AoL is better.

If your kill rate is more like a nuke, then AoL, but if it's more like a spike, then minions would be better.

Why bring Jagged Bones in PvE? It's just gonna make you take longer to progress through things because that's just another enchantment your OCD hero is going to cast. Then he's going to sit back and raise minions, too.

I'd personally prefer a hero that had first priority of using all of the corpses (especially if there are other necros around), and the fact that you can exploit every corpse at once at a faster cast time than any minion spell, to me, is amazing. That's not even mentioning the +1.

-CM

Coney · Jan 17, 2011, 03:35 AM // 03:35

C Marie seemed to have nailed it - but there's something ignored in this thread. How about the ability to explode 10 minions at their target, with a single AotL cast (Death Nova)?

Xenomortis · Jan 17, 2011, 01:34 PM // 13:34

Because that never works.

Kunder · Jan 17, 2011, 05:58 PM // 17:58

It would work in strictly defensive missions where the next mob arrives and fights in the exact same place that the last one died in. Very limited but potentially a fun way to handle repeated mobs with a build that is already strong otherwise.

galactic · Jan 17, 2011, 06:02 PM // 18:02

Jagged bones gets my vote.

Morte66 · Feb 02, 2011, 01:19 PM // 13:19

ISTM AotL works better in practice than it ought to in theory. After several hundred hours of playing with various MM builds I keep scratching my head and coming back to it, even though I don't want to. I have a few theories on why...

On a hero...

- It's tougher minions, they tank better, they survive the fireball as they run toward the enemy to do their job (even if the job is exploding). I use Blood of the Master for the same reasons. In practice, even suicide minions work better when they're tough.

- Heroes like casting Death Nova. They don't like casting Jagged Bones when they can cast Death Nova instead, so it's underused. They'll ignore piles of corpses and just let them expire, if they can cast Death Nova on exisiting minions instead. AotL is a one click solution.

On a player...

- If you're in a Zaishen PUG, which probably describes most player groups, they will not wait while you spend 15-30 seconds after the fight carefully raising Vampiric/Shambing/etc. You get about the time it takes them to pick up loot, which is where AotL comes in.

- If you're with H/H, wouldn't you rather be AP caller and leave the minions to a hero since it's one of the things they do less badly?

In General...

- It's the bad times when you wipe, not the times when things are working as intended. The worst thing that can happen to a minion master is no minions and no corpses. OotV and JB won't help with that, AotL will.

I might change a minion hero to some non-minion elite if it especially suited the area. I would run OotV as a player if I knew the group would let me do it right. But AotL has proved itself in practice and become my default.