Curse

cataphract · Jul 05, 2011, 06:53 AM // 06:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

That rationale seems a little backwards to me.

Ditto.

If you're sacrificing health by percentage, the obvious goal should be to lower your max health. And, ofcourse, to boost your armor. That said, my MM's run Minion Master insignias on their armor and a Bloodstained insignia on their boots.

As for masochism, it really isn't needed since your minions will be dishing out enough damage wherever you go. Minions have pwned everything for years without Masochism so you shouldn't have any problems playing without it. If you're running Fiends you can try going N/E and using melee and elements wards to give them and your party more survivability.

Swingline · Jul 07, 2011, 01:07 PM // 13:07

I think I need to clarify that I said nothing about BotM in my post. All my MM heroes use a minion bomber build which does not use BotM. With 570 hp masochism with at least 12 SR makes a spell sac only 17 hp. I also favor hp because my 7 hero setup uses skills that boosts armor for the whole party permanently and since armor has diminishing returns hp seems to be the best choice for me.

For Necros using minions as a source of damage mitigation I would have to agree that less health and more armor would be the best way to go when using BotM + masochism.

Xenomortis · Jul 07, 2011, 01:16 PM // 13:16

Health has diminishing returns; armour doesn't really.
It does, but not as much as health.

Swingline · Jul 07, 2011, 02:39 PM // 14:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Health has diminishing returns; armour doesn't really. It does, but not as much as health.

Health sacrifice from masochism at 12 SR is close to insignificant. As I stated at 570 health it is still only 17 health that you sac, while at 400 its 12 health. 170 extra max health outweighs the extra 5 health you sac from masochism. So from these facts health does have diminishing returns but the high max health is still superior. As I said in my post before, when BotM gets in the mix the lower health is superior because of the sheer amount you sac at 11 minions along with masochism. So it would be wise to run low health but high armor.

While health does have diminishing returns from sacing, armor always has diminishing returns. If you gain 100 armor at a base armor of 60 and cut it into 2 sets of 50 the first 50 armor will reduce damage by 57.96%. The second set of 50 armor will only add 24.36% damage mitigation for a total of 82.32%. With a skill like SY up permanently you may as well boost health. That is if your not using BotM, if so yes I would focus on armor all the way with low health.

Xenomortis · Jul 07, 2011, 03:02 PM // 15:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swingline

While health does have diminishing returns from sacing, armor always has diminishing returns. If you gain 100 armor at a base armor of 60 and cut it into 2 sets of 50 the first 50 armor will reduce damage by 57.96%. The second set of 50 armor will only add 24.36% damage mitigation for a total of 82.32%. With a skill like SY up permanently you may as well boost health. That is if your not using BotM, if so yes I would focus on armor all the way with low health.

Every 40 armour reduces damage by 50%. Save Yourselves reduces damage by 82%.
An extra 40 armour will further reduce damage by 50%. Of course, 50% of 18% isn't much, but you're still going to be able to take twice as many hits as before.

So let's say we're adding MM insignia; so that's 10-15 extra armour which in turn is 16-23% damage reduction.
This is being compared to Survivor's which (minus the slot for Bloodstained) is +35 health. That's equivalent to saying all damage is multiplied by the inverse of the percentage of health gain (480/515 = 0.93 - 7% damage reduction).
So we're comparing a 7% reduction to 16-23%. Of course the health applies to all forms of damage, whereas the armour only applies to a subset of damage triggers.

Now with SY, it doesn't really matter, but the same principles apply and the nature of armour means that it doesn't actually matter what armour level you're starting from.

Premium Unleaded · Jul 07, 2011, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Tormentor's is better than MM tbh. You're always most vulnerable when you have few/no minion fodder present.

Daesu · Jul 07, 2011, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Premium Unleaded

Tormentor's is better than MM tbh. You're always most vulnerable when you have few/no minion fodder present.

I think that is arguable. You are still vulnerable to range attacks even with minions.

If you believe strongly in that point of view then why not use Undertaker's?

Xenomortis · Jul 07, 2011, 04:18 PM // 16:18

Tormentor's is better than Undertaker's.

Amy Awien · Jul 07, 2011, 05:31 PM // 17:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swingline

While health does have diminishing returns from sacing, armor always has diminishing returns.

Nonsense, +40AL means it takes twice as long before healing is required, with the next +40AL it takes four times as long. No diminishing returns at all.

The mistake you make is in thinking that from 10 to 5 is smaller change then when going from 20 to 10. While at first glance those numbers seem to support your claim, the result in both reductions is the same, a doubling of the time between heals, or a reduction in the cost of healing of 50%

Kunder · Jul 07, 2011, 09:42 PM // 21:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Premium Unleaded

Tormentor's is better than MM tbh. You're always most vulnerable when you have few/no minion fodder present.

Dieing when you have only 2 minions up is a minor inconvenience. Dieing with 11 Minions up is a seriously bad thing that can wipe a party in seconds. Plus, after the first mob you should have 11 minions up 95% of the time anyways. Whats better, having +5 armor 5% of the time or +5 armor 95% of the time?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Nonsense, +40AL means it takes twice as long before healing is required, with the next +40AL it takes four times as long. No diminishing returns at all.

The mistake you make is in thinking that from 10 to 5 is smaller change then when going from 20 to 10. While at first glance those numbers seem to support your claim, the result in both reductions is the same, a doubling of the time between heals, or a reduction in the cost of healing of 50%

Technically he is true that there are diminishing returns when you count in the effect of armor ignoring damage. However, +health is still not what you should ever be wearing in PvE even if you aren't saccing.

Premium Unleaded · Jul 07, 2011, 10:47 PM // 22:47

Dying with a full army up means either you or your party did something wrong.
Also, you do know that tormentor's is +10 always / take xx more holy dmg, right?

Showtime · Jul 08, 2011, 12:39 AM // 00:39

if you don't have it, don't worry about it. when i 1st played mm, all i did was make sure to take advantage of as many corpse as possible/keep up lots minions while not lagging behind.

pure mm's should use masochism if available. +2 to death/sr is real nice.

obviously use a bloodstainded and mm armor runes since they usually have 2+ minions after the 1st fight. the backside use sup death and sup vigor, minor SR, and w/e. but if your necro/mm has only one set of armor or nec hero switches roles, use tormented or blessed.

i prefer my heros that sacrifice health not to have too much extra hp cuz it takes more effort to get them back to 100%. which is more important than total amount imo.

a properly set up team/mm shouldn't have to worry in the majority of HM pve. just stand back or flag back after callin target. mm's should stand behind spirits so even if they are a primary target, bad guys have to get thru at least spirits and minions to get to mm. mm's are free to run away since minions will be locked in til enemies or it is dead. kite and cast or stand back and cast.

dual role mm's should basically play the same way. except they need to stay in range to bip or w/e. so find out what your team needs and add prots or bip etc to the mix.

Daesu · Jul 08, 2011, 08:08 AM // 08:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Premium Unleaded

Dying with a full army up means either you or your party did something wrong.
Also, you do know that tormentor's is +10 always / take xx more holy dmg, right?

Yes but minion master insignia can exceed +10, furthermore it doesn't have the drawback of making you more vulnerable to holy damage (smiting monks and dervishes say hi).

To get +10 for minion master insignia only requires 3 minions, how hard is that especially for a Aotl MM? You already get 2 minions with only 1 exploitable corpse.

In other words all these talk about having a full army up is moot, because you only need 3 minions (i.e. not even close to a full army) to get the SAME +armor as tormentors WITHOUT being extra vulnerable to holy damage. With only 5 minions, you get +15 armor which exceeds tormentors.

CookieOfFury · Sep 21, 2011, 10:18 PM // 22:18

No need to discuss this - I'd take it because I like to have an 18 on an attribute.