Curse

RonanH · Nov 06, 2011, 05:34 PM // 17:34

Before I get trolled, this is a question, not a statement.

Personally I love playing on my necro, but I find myself wondering time and time again do we have a place in this meta?

A few points (only my opinion) :
-Hero's reign supreme for MM/Bombing.
-SS is still effective but can also easily be ran on a hero.
-Blood is useless.
-Soul reaping is still amazing energy management but what can we do with it?

Not much I know, but if you have any recommendations or opinions feel free to post a reply or even completely slaughter me :)

LifeInfusion · Nov 06, 2011, 05:39 PM // 17:39

See closed thread: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/w...t10478726.html

Go play ele, ranger, an unbuffed melee (no SoH/splinter), non-shadow-form sin, non-imba paragon, smite monk. Then get back to me.

The necro is a force multiplier. So it in itself doesn't do as much as other professions. But if you have any offense other than spirit Ritualists (DwG/Spirit Rift/Channeled strike) or Mesmers (all mesmer damage is armor ignoring: keystone/e-surge+mistrust+cry/clumsiness+ineptitude+wandering eye), they get boosted: Barbs = physicals, Weaken armor = elemental +physical, Mark of Pain = physicals, orders=physicals.

Just because a hero can play necro, doesn't mean the can play it well. They can SS on targets close to dead, for example. They can PoD something that isn't worth PoD-ing (Pain of Disenchantment).

Blood isn't useless. Go try Spoil Victor (use this on a a healer enemy or a boss like Shiro) + blood bond + orders with SoH (strength of honor) on a physical team. Top it off with Foul feast for cleaning/energy. D/N with Avatar of Dwayna + meditation can do orders, but not the SoH or blood bond + sv combo. If you run crap like Life Transfer/Vampiric Spirit + Vampiric Gaze +Well of Blood (I saw a necro running this while I was monking for a PUG for ZB HM), then yes Blood is useless. If you want to be more creative you can do some Blood of the Aggressor + weaken armor + oppressive Gaze/Ravenous Gaze thing but don't delude yourself into thinking it's any good.

Also try N/A with Assassin's promise + YMLAD! + sin support + FH! + Mark of Pain. Heroes can't do Order of Undeath MM-ing that well.

The only place necros aren't really used is DoA PUGs , but in organized teams you can play http://www.gwpvx.com/Build:Team_-_DoA_Trenchway#SS.

AndrewSX · Nov 06, 2011, 06:13 PM // 18:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

See closed thread: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/w...t10478726.html

Go play ele, ranger, an unbuffed melee (no SoH/splinter), non-imba paragon, smite monk. Then get back to me.

That's pretty much the point for me.

BTW...the nec is imo a situational class.
They can do almost anything quite good(thanks to SR), but in certain situations can shine as nobody else(2k dmg on balled mobs with tank, triggered by 2x spikers with splinter....also know as Manly spike - just for name one).

The other point is that outside those "situations", Nec are a formidable support/utility class(orders. Bip. MM. Debuffs. Conditions manipulation. FD if you want to.)...but with heroes you'll hardly find appealing that kind of play, so looking foward for dmg, AP spiking/curse stuff is pretty much all, and isn't so reliably strong. But Necs are anything BUT mediocre, believe us.

Not to blame you, but maybe you just stil have to explore the numerous options you have as Nec....just learn it more deeply.

RonanH · Nov 06, 2011, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Thanks for the replies

!
But I never said they were mediocre, I was asking for peoples opinion on it. And I know necro's are excellent support classes, but there is little VIABLE options for HM gameplay.

----------

But if I am perfectly honest I've played very little with blood magic , so I'll take your word for anything on that topic <3

Axel Zinfandel · Nov 06, 2011, 07:42 PM // 19:42

Necros are that class I've always considered better left to Heroes. They are the casters' Paragon in that respect; they shine in support.

But where Paragons are underused and a bit broken, Necros have great versatility and synergy.

Necros can support, both by debuffing enemies and transferring conditions..
Necros can heal well
Hell, Necros can even run a SEARING FLAMES build VERY well through Soul Reaping and SoLS

So I think they're fine really, and the small gripes about necros can wait until the gaping wounds of class balance are fixed.

Spiritz · Nov 06, 2011, 08:13 PM // 20:13

Ok this is just my view about heros and humans.
1. In hm human casters are crap at rupting - remember mes foes will cast damn fast .
2. Some builds are more suited for humans and others for heros - eg discord and ap callers.

A lot of players want teams with this and that in it and wont alter to accomodate another profession.Its like the old mesmer situation - before the big mes buff lot of poor mesmers were left on the sideline and were mainly turned to x/me for the cop builds.
Hm wise - since hm began theres always been a necro presence - 55 necro springs to mind and even the 55/ss team who used to do uw.Some, well most necro skills become more effective in hm due to faster attacking etc.
Soon as mes were buffed - wow everyone wanted 1 and theres a glints hero build that uses 3 of them - now thats a turn up for the books.
Necro`s ive always liked as they were/are still usefull in any team but what i feel is a lot of these builds for teams are set in old ways and probably the makers dont have the time or skills etc to change builds - if it works already why change it ? - thats the old saying.

Da Mystic Reaper · Nov 06, 2011, 08:20 PM // 20:20

The power of the necro is indeed support, i use them alot as heroes. You can give them almost any caster secondary and they use it effectively, and thanks to Soul Reaping they can last even long battles without having energy problems. Blood is very useful due to skills such as Blood Ritual and already mentioned Spoil Victor, it also excels in spreading conditions trough Barbed Signet and Oppressive Gaze. Strip Enchantment is a very powerful enchantment removal and when not running a MM Well of Blood can offer good support. As mentioned the Orders and Mark of Fury are very effective skills fur the melee support, but it's best to keep those support skills limited and not go all out with the melee support because balance is the key to succes.

I favor secondaries such as Monk for protections and hex removal and Ritualist for healing and damage with Channeling skills such as Splinter Weapon and Spirit Rift (great damage). Death Magic has some good damage skills (excluding Discord ofc) but it's best knows for minions wich is very easy to play. Curses are good for debuffing the enemy but it's not as effective as Domination Magic and Illusion Magic. It does posses good skills such as Weaken Armor and Enfeebling Blood and can support melee well, not forgetting Plague Sending wich goes great with Foul Feast. Spiteful Spirit used to be good but since the mesmer got buffed it is not effective anymore since it's better to prevent damage and deal large damage than to punish it with moderate damage. Curses is currently nest played for small debuffs and support skills combined with a secondary profession support skills or damage.

But the real power of the necromancer is still the energy managment of Soul Reaping as it allows you to take all those combinations. To make full use of the necromancer you have to be creative with your skills and discover what works best for you and not rely on PvX as it is only limited to meta builds and limits the creativity of players as they will think only within the lines of meta gameplay and no longer outside of it (perfect example is Discord way).
So go and be creative and try out different combinations of the professions and create your own team build that works best for your necromancer.

Chthon · Nov 06, 2011, 08:28 PM // 20:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by RonanH

-Hero's reign supreme for MM/Bombing.

This is not and never was the case. A good player MM is far superior to the best hero minion builds. (To the extent your experience differs, that only means that you've never seen a good player MM.)

The real reason not to run MM on a player is the combined facts that (1) you probably only have 1 human necro on a (planned) team, and (2) the gap between a good human curse necro and a curse hero is even bigger than the gap between a good human minion necro and a minion hero.

Quote:

SS is still effective but can also easily be ran on a hero.

As a reactive hex, SS's effectiveness is inversely proportional to how good your team is. If your party had decent damage output, things would be dying fast enough that SS would be a waste of energy and cast time. (Conversely, if your team sucks so badly that they do no real damage, SS will still eventually win the battle against most mobs, so long as you can stay alive long enough.)

Heroes are almost guaranteed to put SS on the worst possible target. The only reasons to run SS on a hero are (1) your team sucks so bad that SS becomes good, or (2) there's no other elite worth running since heroes can't handle AP.

Quote:

Blood is useless.

Any team that's relying on physical damage dealers should have an Orders/SoH necro backing them up. (This role is boring as hell, so it should usually go to a hero.)

Quote:

Soul reaping is still amazing energy management but what can we do with it?

Indeed. I've been trying to make that point for a long time to people who think that SR should be nerfed into dust.

To answer your question:
You can run those 25e bone fiends that the devs priced so that you can't afford them without SR.
You can run a resto build without giving up your elite skill for e-management.
You can run Orders/SoH and have enough energy to do stuff while maintaining 3 to 6 copies of SoH.

Other than that, you are correct, that SR doesn't enable you to do anything you couldn't already do with more modest e-management.

Aside, if/when the promised revision to monster AL comes through, IV will be one of the best nukes in the game. (FYI, right now it stinks.)

Xenomortis · Nov 06, 2011, 09:16 PM // 21:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Other than that, you are correct, that SR doesn't enable you to do anything you couldn't already do with more modest e-management.

8 skill slots and the ability to largely not care about skill usage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Aside, if/when the promised revision to monster AL comes through, IV will be one of the best nukes in the game. (FYI, right now it stinks.)

No it won't.

Chthon · Nov 06, 2011, 10:38 PM // 22:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

8 skill slots and the ability to largely not care about skill usage.

Assuming you're looking at two non-elite e-management skills to replace SR, then SR is giving you access to the 7th and 8th best skills you'd want in exchange for running a necro primary and shoveling some attribute points into SR. That's not a fantastic deal.

Now, what is arguably a fantastic deal is using SR to replace an elite that would otherwise go towards e-management. The best example of that is probably N/Rt running ZR or WoR (or even SLW) instead of Spirit Channeling. I can't really think of any other examples where you might want to run the build in the first place. (Sadly, SR can't replace ER...)

Quote:

No it won't.

I know it's shocking, since we're all so used to IV being the hallmark of a total noob. And yet, look at the numbers: "nearby" range AoE, 5 recharge, 116dmg @16 SR (which is more realistically 128 considering Maso or even 181 if you also consider easy access to Weaken Armor*). What compares to those raw numbers besides SF on an ele primary? The limiting factor is the requirement that you kill the target to get the damage. Perhaps you disagree, but I think that's not going to be any more of a build-breaking problem than it is for AP. You've got a little less spike power (probably IV's damage plus 2xNecrosis plus maybe one other damage skill as opposed to YMLAD plus FH plus some part of the assassin's chain), but not so much less that it won't work. At least that's the theory; we'll see if it works when the monster AL change actually happens.

*If monsters get changed so that monster casters actually have 60AL (which the other figures assume), then cracked armor would not help any. (Of course, if they don't come down pretty close to 60AL, then the whole change will be for nothing, since armor-sensitive damage would still suck across the board.)

Wenspire · Nov 06, 2011, 10:46 PM // 22:46

Hexes generally are more effective when they are applied to the correct/optimal target. Since heroes tend to target what you are attacking at the time, their effectiveness will be based on your targetting skills (this is unless you are manually targetting your heroes). It even becomes more of an issue when you have multiple hex-based heroes in your party (mesmers).

In short, curse-based Necros are better when played by humans.

Xenomortis · Nov 06, 2011, 11:01 PM // 23:01

The problem with SR isn't that it can be used to fuel secondaries (it can but for the most part you're downright inferior as a N/X to the original X), just that it's totally braindead and ridiculous.

As for IV, you've already stated why it wouldn't be the best nuke in the game. Sure the numbers are attractive but you're not going to get that nice AoE spike all the time and the initial damage only does a little to push momentum in your favor.
I guess it'll trash the shit you face in vanquishes though.
Edit: And the fact it's in Soul Reaping does it no favours what so ever, actually just being a Necro skill kind of hurts it.

Swingline · Nov 07, 2011, 12:30 AM // 00:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

Necros are that class I've always considered better left to Heroes.

That's because Necros are boring to me, you and maybe the OP. I find direct confrontational classes my style. Everything about the Necro is good, they are on par with Mesmers and Rits but its the way you must execute them that drives people like me away, again just not my style. Cast SS > watch mob kill itself, create minion army > watch minions kill, Cast SV > watch boss kill itself, its very effective yet very boring. I did the ZB on my necro yesterday as a FoC Necro(the group already had SS). It was so boring I watched tv the whole time, mostly bc FoC sucks unless you have a huge ball, plus the casting and recharge blow. I hope when HM gets its health buff they take a look at a few Necro skills and make the class a bit more exiting.

LifeInfusion · Nov 07, 2011, 04:13 AM // 04:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swingline

That's because Necros are boring to me, you and maybe the OP. I find direct confrontational classes my style. Everything about the Necro is good, they are on par with Mesmers and Rits but its the way you must execute them that drives people like me away, again just not my style. Cast SS > watch mob kill itself, create minion army > watch minions kill, Cast SV > watch boss kill itself, its very effective yet very boring. I did the ZB on my necro yesterday as a FoC Necro(the group already had SS). It was so boring I watched tv the whole time, mostly bc FoC sucks unless you have a huge ball, plus the casting and recharge blow. I hope when HM gets its health buff they take a look at a few Necro skills and make the class a bit more exiting.

FoC is boring to you, but I find dagger chains lamer because 1-2-3 spam isn't exactly fun either. Neither is trying to interrupt hard mode mobs with a bow (or getting rangers to do damage), or play warrior in a PUG that has no melee buffs and insists on a "tank". FoC isn't that great when you can pack Desecrate enchantments +Defile Enchantments with a better elite such as SS/PoD. Personally I'd run blood, MoP curses with barbs (SS usually doesn't have barbs or weaken armor), or death if the other necro was SS curses. I'd build around the other necro, because my necro has every necro skill and pretty much every skill that's ever worth using on a necro primary.

Also, Soul Reaping used to be more broken because the energy wasn't capped. It's already been nerfed multiple times.

I wouldn't call Icy Veins as powerful as you lot deem it. It's cold damage... and we know how elemental damage does in Hard mode. It's on par with Spirit Rift/Ancestor's Rage. The difference is with AP you get the damage on the target, this is AoE minus the target ala Keystone Signet.

Chthon · Nov 08, 2011, 04:58 AM // 04:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

I wouldn't call Icy Veins as powerful as you lot deem it. It's cold damage... and we know how elemental damage does in Hard mode.

Reading the whole post for the win:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Aside, if/when the promised revision to monster AL comes through, IV will be one of the best nukes in the game. (FYI, right now it stinks.)

Kunder · Nov 09, 2011, 10:49 PM // 22:49

Assuming that monster HP is buffed overall to compensate for lower AL (as expected), IV doesn't gain much except for the hacked-high 140 AL caster enemies. The update is more of a stealthy way to nerf armor ignoring damage (which is a very good move, in an absolute sense most armor affected damage sources are quite adequate). We're potentially looking at ~1k HP for the average enemy, don't expect that they will be dying every 2s to trigger IV like they do now.

Still, N/Rt is going to be scary.

Plutoman · Nov 09, 2011, 11:04 PM // 23:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by RonanH

Thanks for the replies

!
But I never said they were mediocre, I was asking for peoples opinion on it. And I know necro's are excellent support classes, but there is little VIABLE options for HM gameplay.

You've essentially answered your own question. They're excellent support - in HM, you need some form of support. Everyone's listed off multiple builds and ways to play, which are all viable in HM. In fact, I'd argue that besides an MM (and even those aren't needed in NM), a necro isn't really viable in NM. All the skills tend to be better used in HM.

Chthon · Nov 13, 2011, 09:51 PM // 21:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Still, N/Rt is going to be scary.

What do you have in mind?

Since I'm not seeing it.
PBAoE stuff like Glaive is suicidal outside of DoA teams.
Using Glaive to power to Rift would work I guess, but Rift is at least as clunky as IV and only adjacent range.
Clamor+Cruel Was Daoshen would have reasonable AoE, but the damage is rather weak at rank12, especially for an 8sec recharge.
ARage is already armor-ignoring despite the skilltext.
Unless I'm forgetting something, everything else is single-target and strictly inferior to Necrosis.

Kunder · Nov 14, 2011, 04:22 AM // 04:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

What do you have in mind?

Since I'm not seeing it.
PBAoE stuff like Glaive is suicidal outside of DoA teams.
Using Glaive to power to Rift would work I guess, but Rift is at least as clunky as IV and only adjacent range.
Clamor+Cruel Was Daoshen would have reasonable AoE, but the damage is rather weak at rank12, especially for an 8sec recharge.
ARage is already armor-ignoring despite the skilltext.
Unless I'm forgetting something, everything else is single-target and strictly inferior to Necrosis.

Well, for one thing, Spirit Rift + IV looks to be incredibly nasty if you have a human using it. SR kicks ass (go ask a rit boss), and IV is the the same thing with a larger AoE.

Mostly though, N/Rt support heroes are already amazing, and they are amazing without any good elites. Now IV comes in as a Super Death Nova with 1/2 the cast time, damage on cast, more base AoE damage against 60 AL (another +41% after cracked armor), larger AoE, and requires no extra attribute spec? Sweet.

Splinter Weapon/Ancestor's Rage/Icy Veins/Order of Pain/Jaundiced Gaze/Foul Feast/Masochism/Signet of Lost Souls

Run a 2nd hero with Dark Fury if desired. Optionally switch out SoLS (probably don't need more energy, haven't tested) for something like Bloodsong, Gaze of Contempt, or Awaken the Blood (lolcrazy), though all of them are fairly marginal.

Spec 10/11/10 Blood/Soul/Channeling. Hit 17 soul reaping after buffs and runes.

Icy Veins alone practically makes it a high tier nuker, and it offers every almost every physical support skill in the game that you could want other than SoH and MoP. Only weakness (other than lack of 14 Channeling Splint Weapon ofc) is that you can't cast everything fast enough to use all your damage dealers 100%, but most of them are situational so you should be hitting near 100% effectiveness in practice.

Imma be running 2 of these at all times. Buffed physicals take out the inital enemies, IV chain reaction decimates the rest.

Swingline · Nov 14, 2011, 06:57 AM // 06:57

If you think IV is good now wait till the HM update hits and all mob armor is reduced. I unfortunately never see AI utilize it to its true potential but when that magical update does come you better believe its the first skill I put in my 7 hero setup.