Curse

JiggyFly · Sep 29, 2006, 08:41 AM // 08:41

I've run into those types of Monks, the kind where you know regardless of the situation that you know they have your back. And rather than sit their trying to figure out ways to take as little damage as possible (because you know between breeze spams that the monk is nearing single digit energy), you figure out ways to be the most effective because you know you have a decent monk backing you.

Admittedly it's something that not many PuG monks have, but I've partied with a few that "owned" at what they did. You have to give them credit afterall in most PuGs think of the worst possible scenario you can think of and leave it to some Leroy to play it out...twice.

Of course the whole PvP vs. PVE was bound to happen, but there is such thing as a good PvE Monk, and there's plenty of Healing Breeze turrets in PvP, so there are definitely "good" monks on both sides, but I wouldn't go as far as makign generalized states ment like "PvP>PvE monks" because um have you seen rank 4,000 guild backlines? =P

Rera · Sep 29, 2006, 08:41 AM // 08:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darakus

I beg to disagree with the above statement as monking for a group fighting at 5 to 1 is a real challenge that cannot be seen to often in pvp. I will admit that healing in pvp requires nerves and talent because you are a priority target but doing so in pvp with a group that will over-aggro just for the challenge of it is as fun and requires as much talent.

I'd love for the above poster to try to monk for such a team to see if he would hold to his opinion (which he is entitled to) afterwards.

You can set up situations in PvE that are so catastrophic so as to be meaningless. Sure, you can run into Abaddon's Mouth, aggro everything in the fort, and try to heal the group through it. Or you could have 7 frenzyhealsig warriors in Vizunah and try to keep them up by yourself. Wanna try? It'll be 'challenging'.

The point is that these situations are highly abnormal. You would be lying if you said the average PUG monk had to face this kind of situation regularly, and you would further be lying if you said that these monks could actually pull teams through these kinds of situations.

Monks are under ridiculous amounts of pressure in GvG. It's not something you can talk about without actually witnessing for yourself. Otherwise, you can't know what it's like to heal a team when you're being shut down the entire match, when you have to focus swap every time you want to cast anything, when there's a warrior on your ass, a ranger sitting on your face, and some mother****er galeing you for every spike. It's not a simple matter like simply being outnumbered in PvE - this is about good players who are doing their very best to make sure you are as useless as possible, and you have to do your very best to make sure you can still keep your team alive.

I actually wasn't planning on arguing about it, and Carth is right, there's no point turning this into another PvP vs. PvE flamewar ... so I guess I'll leave this thread to the rest of you :P

saphir · Sep 29, 2006, 08:55 AM // 08:55

comparing gvg monks to pve monks is like apples to oranges. they have different purposes, are usually skilled differently and play in vastly different conditions.

pve focuses more on keeping your party alive, the monk can usually move to a safe area, or scrape the aggro off on a war if they know what they're doing. pve monks in elite areas where aatxes and black thorns roam focus keeping the party alive under 350 damage hits and, without the benefit of other party memebers going around instantly res sig'ing a player that goes down.

in gvg, monks are generally first target, and your primary job is to keep yourself alive and absorb the other party's damage output. hexes and conditions abound, and generally you're more focused on keeping yourself alive and useful rather than the party. I only have limited experience in gvg monking, but matches are definitely interesting to watch in observer mode.

the closest equivalent to a pve pug monk i think would be pvp "pug" monking (ie. RA, AB etc). There you don't know what you're going to get .. and there is also much less teamwork, w/ your leeroys and tanking eles, etc. Pvp pug monking isn't too hard, but is nevertheless a different play style and my skill bar is quite different from playing pve.

Darakus · Sep 29, 2006, 08:56 AM // 08:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rera

You can set up situations in PvE that are so catastrophic so as to be meaningless. Sure, you can run into Abaddon's Mouth, aggro everything in the fort, and try to heal the group through it. Or you could have 7 frenzyhealsig warriors in Vizunah and try to keep them up by yourself. Wanna try? It'll be 'challenging'.

The point is that these situations are highly abnormal. You would be lying if you said the average PUG monk had to face this kind of situation regularly, and you would further be lying if you said that these monks could actually pull teams through these kinds of situations.

Monks are under ridiculous amounts of pressure in GvG. It's not something you can talk about without actually witnessing for yourself. Otherwise, you can't know what it's like to heal a team when you're being shut down the entire match, when you have to focus swap every time you want to cast anything, when there's a warrior on your ass, a ranger sitting on your face, and some mother****er galeing you for every spike. It's not a simple matter like simply being outnumbered in PvE - this is about good players who are doing their very best to make sure you are as useless as possible, and you have to do your very best to make sure you can still keep your team alive.

I actually wasn't planning on arguing about it, and Carth is right, there's no point turning this into another PvP vs. PvE flamewar ... so I guess I'll leave this thread to the rest of you :P

Who spoke about average, I worked under the assumption that you were comparing the best both worlds had to offer when you made your statement that no kind of PvE monking could compare to GvG or HA one.

If you compare the best of one world to the average of the other you will be of course switching the balance greatly won't you?

And by the way I wasn't arguing about the quality of the top monks in PvP, I just stated that I was of the opinion there were monks as good in PvE and some of them were PUGs monk. I would be grateful if you would not twist my "the best PuG monks are great monks" to "PuG monks are great monks" which isn't exactly the same.

waarph · Sep 29, 2006, 09:04 AM // 09:04

Hi to all,

I played both a monk and a healer Rit.

You are tired playing the monk and saving everyone without any thanks? Play a Rit

. You can turn into a heal rit if necessary or do something else if you find a second monk.

Beside, it is a really nice to spam heals without ever worrying about energy. It is such a change from the monk side of thing. Also, no one blames you

nor thank you for the healing

(except the monks that usually say gg to me at the end... but between healers we are more polite

).

That for PVE of course for those still in this debate...

Cya

Xeeron · Sep 29, 2006, 09:38 AM // 09:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matsumi

Maybe it's just more of the boon prot mentality, but healing breaze is usually on a healer monk's skill bar, and it's usually to keep themselves healed.

Healing monks self heal:

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Healing_Touch

- Xeeron

Lady Lozza · Sep 29, 2006, 09:42 AM // 09:42

1) Energy management and kiting are taught in pvp
2) Patience is taught in pve pugs

Conclusion: The monk who does both, learns the most.

torquemada · Sep 29, 2006, 09:42 AM // 09:42

Here we go again!

Close topic?

cataphract · Sep 29, 2006, 09:51 AM // 09:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enchanted Warrior

Got rid of my monk, I got tired of all the hate etc if someone died. Just wasn't worth it to me to keep him.

Wuss.

As a monk, you're always right and on top of that - you have the means to impose your will unto others. Ofcourse, you keep this as your last resort and use it only on those who have proven worthy of it; i.e. a/w using frenzy, minion masters with lvl 5 minions, e/mo echo nukers, OMG-HEAL-MY-PET rangers, I-HEAL-BETTER-THAN-yu0 ritualists, w/n's with ss that say they'll keep their energy up with balthazar's and alike. PvE is lots of fun when you reach the Zen of not losing your nerves to random idiots.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xeeron

Healing monks self heal:
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Healing_Touch

True. But then again, a good monk that watches aggro and positions himself accordingly will not need any additional self-heals. Orison will do the job every time.

Roshi_ikkyu · Sep 29, 2006, 09:54 AM // 09:54

we should post names of monk who show out standing healingness-ness

Roshi Ikkyu!

Hey I'm modest!

Vilaptca · Sep 29, 2006, 10:35 AM // 10:35

I'm sorry, but was it really necessary to create a WHOLE new thread just to post an opposing argument.

Threads merged.

Franco · Sep 29, 2006, 03:46 PM // 15:46

lol I know, I just BiP both monks in the party, then obviously sacrificed 140hp. So I got atacked... and all the 2 monks could do for me is give me a healing breeze ? wtf , Healing breeze is a useless skill in monk bar ><.

teenchi · Sep 29, 2006, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Funny that some other monk just screamed at me about this last night. He thought he was the only one doing the healing and I felt that I was the only one doing the healing. I suggested that I take the top half of the group and he take the bottom half and he just kept whining. He accused me of using heal party (which I didn't have equipped) bc my energy was low. My energy was low because either we weren't communicating and healing the same people or he was doing nothing. Sucks when the monks don't split up the healing evenly or call.

Rera · Sep 29, 2006, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Anyone who thinks a good GvG monk can't PvE well is deluding themselves. It isn't apples and oranges. Monking is one of the few professions that actually translates very well from PvP to PvE. The skills you pick up in PvP, such as good emgt, watching the field, positioning, etc. all work very well in PvE.

@Darakus:
I'm comparing an average GvG situation to an average PvE situation. I'm not comparing the best monks of one side to the average monks of another side, because god knows the average monk isn't worth comparing to anything.

Regardless of PvP vs. PvE or whatever else, a good monk is a good monk, and I think we can all agree that there are precious few of them to go around.

Franco · Sep 29, 2006, 08:29 PM // 20:29

the way i see it, most people nowadays just make monks to 1) farm or 2) get in parties quick lol ( in pve).

Age · Sep 29, 2006, 11:08 PM // 23:08

Simple answer to the OP is don't pug with real Monk use henches instead and those who say pvpers can handle a Pug I am not sure about that.if I was a pvp only Monk i would be used to a predictable situation either we win or lose no way about it in pve pug it is very unpredictable and not knowing the odds of winning and besides that you have TS or Vent. which makes your jop easier not just team chat.I think a pvp monk would quit and give up becuase of lack of organisation.It is rare that pugs are so organised as I see in gvg in OB mode.I know they are under great deals of pressure but once you done it 50 times you get use to it and know all the halls off by heart.

w00t! · Sep 30, 2006, 12:10 AM // 00:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by YunSooJin

You people really have a dim understanding of the kind of pressure a gvg monk is forced to deal with.

Sorry, PvP monks > PvE monks. People can flaunt accusations of how PvP'ers are just elitist, but apart from all the PC BS that's the way the ball rolls.

Uh, with all due respect, that's just stupid.

I do both PvP (bond, rc, infuse woh), and PvE (all types cept smite), and the pressure is just different. PvP have to deal with spikes, pressure, blah, blah, blah. They face builds in RA and HA that crush them no matter how good they are. It's tough to be a monk in PvP.

PvE is the same, but for different reasons. PvE monks have to keep groups alive that are less skilled and uncoordinated than HA teams (but not RA groups). The pressure is not usually on them, but rather a self-imposed pressure of trying to do a good job and not get flamed.

Now I don't typically GvG, but I PvP a lot and find that it's usually easier to be successful in PvP than in PvE. Expectations are lower in PvP as you usually are the focus. In PvE, most players will blame you if they fail, and in rare occasions credit you if they succeed. You are the lynchpin for success or failure, which usually isn't the case in PvP.

So go back and IWAY or Touch someone and then tell me how hard that is.

Franco · Sep 30, 2006, 12:28 AM // 00:28

All that monks do in most parties is spam healing breeze and heal party and then get complimented for "oh nice healing" While for sure there are much better players doing a better job then him.

Im sorry if im wrong but this is the kind of monks I ve been geting lately.

Matsumi · Sep 30, 2006, 01:06 AM // 01:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Franco

lol I know, I just BiP both monks in the party, then obviously sacrificed 140hp. So I got atacked... and all the 2 monks could do for me is give me a healing breeze ? wtf , Healing breeze is a useless skill in monk bar ><.

If you're a BiP necro, shouldn't you be already using blood renewal and some other form of healing anyway? I don't see why you're complaining about a breeze so much if given one in that situation. Or maybe you're one of those necros that expects the monks to just keep healing him throughout every sac skill you use. That, from my own experience is really annoying. It's like saying "Hey guys, look, I'm cutting myself, I'm cutting myself again... What? No Heals? You guys are noobs!"

Aside from that, ya, I knew about healing touch, but sometimes I don't want to put it on there. If I want to give somebody else a heal, I don't want to get all the way up in their face to do it.

Gee, maybe somebody should send a memo out to all the healer henches, telling them that if they use breeze they're officially a noob huh?

Franco · Sep 30, 2006, 02:29 AM // 02:29

Quote:

If you're a BiP necro, shouldn't you be already using blood renewal and some other form of healing anyway? I don't see why you're complaining about a breeze so much if given one in that situation. Or maybe you're one of those necros that expects the monks to just keep healing him throughout every sac skill you use. That, from my own experience is really annoying. It's like saying "Hey guys, look, I'm cutting myself, I'm cutting myself again... What? No Heals? You guys are noobs!"

Aside from that, ya, I knew about healing touch, but sometimes I don't want to put it on there. If I want to give somebody else a heal, I don't want to get all the way up in their face to do it.

Gee, maybe somebody should send a memo out to all the healer henches, telling them that if they use breeze they're officially a noob huh?

Im a SS, my main job is to hex. I take BR just to aid monks spamming healing party.[sarcasm]
GG

EDIT: Oh and read my post before making comments , I said I use BR, I didnt say I was a BiP necro.