Curse

kazjun · Sep 07, 2006, 06:07 AM // 06:07

If you have your warrior sitting next to the monk, then your party is pretty much 7 instead of 8. Which means it takes longer to kill, which means the party takes more damage, drains the monk of energy which is then more likely to lead to your whole team dying.

CASTERS
Casters have low armour, but is still more than enough to take the few hits while they kite TOWARDS the warriors. The AI is stupid and will get caught on the tanks, problem solved.

WARRIORS
If you're really worried about random pve warriors rushing your monks, body block them. Just stand in their way and wack them with a weap. No need for fancy skill setups or anything.

Darkgift Risen · Sep 07, 2006, 04:18 PM // 16:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesmer in Need

i wanted positive responce- but with my luck i guess ill take anything....oh well

good luck with that..people only like perfection on this forum...if u come up with anything that even remotely seems wierd prepare to be flamed hardcore style...and you'll only get positive feedback 10% of the time..seems like veterans of this site just love to flame someone for thinking outside the box...your idea is sound but i don't think a warrior is the class to protect the monks..as already mentioned ward ele builds are great for that ... wards cover a good size area and help all the back line players...if a warrior is gonna bodyguard he needs to be able to apply enough pressure on the attacking foe to either kill them or make them break off...not to mention the fact that monks LOVE to be saved and I'm sure whoever saves the MONK will get priority when healing is dished out

Dark

Pick Me · Sep 07, 2006, 05:46 PM // 17:46

Monks need to be protected?

If the monk is just looking at the health bars of others and not the battlefield, then the monk is not paying attention to their surroundings and may endup on the wrong side of a hex or sword/hammer/axe/arrow.

If the monk is being attacked, it means either the warriors are not doing their job well enough (sometimes they have no chance to tank everything) or monsters/players come from behind and attack the monk.

Assassins can teleport behind the monk and attack, thus no way for anyone to be ready to defend the monk. I've heard that Assassins make great monk protectors (stay away from the main battle, thus not needing any healing), and able to do severe spike damage to 1 enemy (the way Assassins were ment to do).

I don't think its necessary for Warriors to be in the midline. I think warriors should start paying more attention to where the enemy is, and not just focus on the one they are attacking and the ones in front. I've noticed that there are still people who are so focused on one thing, something comes from behind and attacks the monks/rits/rangers/elementalists, the warriors blame them for Aggroing. It isn't our fault that patrols come from behind.

Same token, we squishies should speak up more if we notice something is going to get us (such as, "HELP!!! BEING ATTACKED!"). Also, we should be on the move from time to time (as to not be just standing there waiting to cast our spells).

This has been my experience as a Necro, Ritualist, and a Monk. Not to mention as a Warrior and Assassin.

Gigashadow · Sep 07, 2006, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkgift Risen

good luck with that..people only like perfection on this forum...if u come up with anything that even remotely seems wierd prepare to be flamed hardcore style...and you'll only get positive feedback 10% of the time..seems like veterans of this site just love to flame someone for thinking outside the box...your idea is sound but i don't think a warrior is the class to protect the monks..as already mentioned ward ele builds are great for that ... wards cover a good size area and help all the back line players...if a warrior is gonna bodyguard he needs to be able to apply enough pressure on the attacking foe to either kill them or make them break off...not to mention the fact that monks LOVE to be saved and I'm sure whoever saves the MONK will get priority when healing is dished out

Dark

The original poster is getting ragged on because he created another thread containing absolutely terrible advice (he is fixated on warriors being 'tanks' rather than damage dealers in PvE). See http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10023093

Similarly, bringing snares on your warrior in PvE to 'protect your monks' is a continuation of the same theme, and is also bad advice.

fallot · Sep 07, 2006, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkgift Risen

good luck with that..people only like perfection on this forum...if u come up with anything that even remotely seems wierd prepare to be flamed hardcore style...and you'll only get positive feedback 10% of the time..seems like veterans of this site just love to flame someone for thinking outside the box...

Have you considered that they may be right and are only trying to help you ? Why must people become so defensive when someone doesn't agree with them or points out their errors ?

Master Fuhon · Sep 07, 2006, 07:13 PM // 19:13

I usually modify my warrior when working with Alesia, if that is what you are noticing when you say a monk needs help from the warrior. Hench monks like to position themselves in the middle of battles at times. A human monk can position himself in a location where the mobs never recognize that he is there, so he doesn't need protection from anyone else. Also, as soon as the monk is under attack, he can usually kite around until the aggro catches on someone else nearby.

Bigger problems occur when you have someone aggroing groups that rush at the flanks of the formation, and that's another situation where wards work better. In situations like this, the monk usually would be forced to completely retreat, and prepare for Rebirthing after the wipe. That's where a supportive character comes in handy, although this doesn't happen enough to warrant a full skill bar of support skills (fortunately). But like people say, it's a complete waste of a warrior to go full support, or to position a heavily armored character away from the hard hitters.

For those who like the idea of playing a supportive warrior, there are plently of skills that work in PvE to make up for the skill level of your teammates. Position yourself in the thick of battle and use Watch Yourself on your fellow warriors/assassins. Have Protector's Defense to use when a caster gets surrounded. Or just change to the classic W/Mo and use the situational healing skills that most PvE monks don't think enough to bring on their bars like Healing Seed/Vigorous Spirit. I think the Paragon is a class that has been designed to fulfill this role in the future.

Age · Sep 07, 2006, 10:00 PM // 22:00

What is this a Warrior useing healing seed that is worse than those that use breeze for thier self heal.The only skill a W/Mo should have is mend ailment,puge conditions or signet and a hard res.This is it.

Skuld · Sep 07, 2006, 10:03 PM // 22:03

Empathetic Removal is nice on a warrior.

Arkantos · Sep 07, 2006, 11:03 PM // 23:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesmer in Need

ok maybey i erred, but correct me if im wrong-dont other casters need protection too. not all builds can heal themselfs.

Most build's should have at least one self heal. And you'll alway's have a monk, that's all the protection they need. Wait until Nightfall comes out to try to make a melee character help your party with shouts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkgift Risen

good luck with that..people only like perfection on this forum...if u come up with anything that even remotely seems wierd prepare to be flamed hardcore style...and you'll only get positive feedback 10% of the time..seems like veterans of this site just love to flame someone for thinking outside the box...

Thinking outside the box is perfectly fine, If the build is actually good.

Xaero Gouki Kriegor · Sep 07, 2006, 11:07 PM // 23:07

i like to use strength of honor on my wammo

Master Fuhon · Sep 07, 2006, 11:33 PM // 23:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

What is this a Warrior useing healing seed that is worse than those that use breeze for thier self heal.The only skill a W/Mo should have is mend ailment,puge conditions or signet and a hard res.This is it.

My point being that a bad monk is a dead monk anywhere you go. What good is all the damage the warrior plans to be doing, when the monk decides to tank? In the situation of a warrior getting hit by about 5-6 weak mobs, Healing Seed would be the best situational heal in the game over Heal Party and Orison clones. Condition removal rarely prevent deaths, it just allows you to keep attacking. I don't enjoy warping to outpost 20 minutes after starting a mission, so I do what I can do.

Watch GvG to see a bunch of helpless warriors stand around as the guild lord gets beaten on, since the support characters are already dead. Now go to PvE, where there's no guarantee that the monk is any good, and the support characters are fire nuker, SS, and other damage dealers. Who makes up for the mistakes that are so commonly made that cause groups to wipe? The answer can be the character you build, despite the fact that you are most efficient at doing something else.

Condition removal on a PvE warrior? When is the timing so crucial that you need blind, bleed, or disease removed immediately? The monsters don't spike you out with Deep Wound either. If the healers are so bad that there is no condition removal, you can expect a wipe because you are already counting on these people for the hardest part of the mission. But all it takes is one bad player to lead the mobs back onto the healer from the sides to bring about the same outcome, which is ultimately preventable.

Autoattack warriors are powerful, and the high Healing Prayers only takes the place of Tactics on Heal Signet. I can still run high Strength and high weapon mastery, meaning that I'm also packing Eviscerate/Triple Chop and you wouldn't notice a difference. I've also run this in Random Arenas once for a 10 win streak because no one shuts down the warrior using Healing Seed when they gang up on someone. But this isn't something that I'll say works all the time, so my comments remain specifically for PvE (hence my use of the words "aggro" and "Rebirth"). Different situations require a different adaptation to succeed.

Evilsod · Sep 08, 2006, 01:23 AM // 01:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skuld

Empathetic Removal is nice on a warrior.

So is asking a monk to bring condition/hex removal and bringing something useful.

SnipiousMax · Sep 08, 2006, 02:15 AM // 02:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

So is asking a monk to bring condition/hex removal and bringing something useful.

Empathic Removal IS nice on a warrior... But I'd venture to say that it's usefulness was limited to PvP.

Evilsod · Sep 08, 2006, 02:20 AM // 02:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

Empathic Removal IS nice on a warrior... But I'd venture to say that it's usefulness was limited to PvP.

A warriors primary concern in PvP should never be on removing a condition or hex from a monk, it should be killing those who inflicted it without endangering yourself (eg. overextending dragging a monk out).

In PvE... there are again better ways to use elites. Why not just bring Plague Touch anyway.

Its a lousy way to use your elite slot... (this elite is hte 1 that removes conditions from you and target ally right? I keep getting confused).

Yukito Kunisaki · Sep 11, 2006, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Protect your warrior sounds like a better ideal than 'protect your monk'.

All a monk needs to do is hide in the back line. casters very rarely go after monks and enemy rangers rarely do too. They're not THAT smart. Artificial stupidity more like it.

2-3 warriors can create an impenetrable wall, lag positioning not withstanding...

Watch Yourself is great for a warrior to bring, for cost and 0 tactics dependability, it does the job needed.

But seriously, if a monk is getting buried, either the warriors didn't hold the line, or the monk foolishly ran in thinking he needs to be point-blank to heal a warrior.

If a warrior isn't the first thing targeted in the party, the party messed up, big time...

Skuld · Sep 11, 2006, 03:02 PM // 15:02

Empathic (did I call that em pathetic lol) Removal is for removing stuff from you with the added bonus of getting it off an ally

Rera · Sep 11, 2006, 06:20 PM // 18:20

One of the main reasons I love Kai Ying [Earth Henchman] so much is that he has Ward Against Melee.

I have thoughts on both sides of the issue:
- The optimum situation for a monk is when only one person is taking damage, because it's really easy to keep one person healthy, even if they're taking a lot of damage. The optimum situation for a nuker is when all of the enemies are clustered in the same area. The optimum situation for a warrior is when all of her targets are standing right next to her all the time. What is this situation called?

- As a warrior, you need to think about where the biggest threat is coming from. Is it the two Jade Brotherhood Mesmers sitting in the back there, or is it the Jade Brotherhood Knights that are raging unchecked in your backline? A lot of warriors make the mistake of ignoring the enemy melee that gets past them, only to turn around and find out that their backline is being torn to ribbons by the DPS. Mesmer in Need is right about needing to protect your monks, he just doesn't have the right ideas about how to do it: finding the biggest threats and eliminating them.

- If you want to use a "None Shall Pass!" knockdown build, here's a few suggestions for some other skills you can take:
Earthshaker (E)
Crude Swing
Lightning Reflexes
"On Your Knees!"
"For Great Justice!"
Crushing Blow

This is based on a build I was toying with a few weeks back when I was still interested in playing a PvE hammer, before my sordid love affair with Dragon Slash. It's not a perfected build by any means, but a starting point for you to think about.

- If you monk in PvP, and then come back to PvE, you'll realize that PvE monking is pretty damn easy in comparison. Your team expects you to be able to kite and mitigate damage to yourself - keeping enemies busy trying to kill you is part of your job, because every warrior that is busy chasing you around is one warrior nobody else has to worry about (at least for the time being). Frequently you'll be kiting and healing and whatnot, and then somebody lands a 3s knockdown on you and suddenly there's a ton of red numbers on your screen and icons popping up everywhere, and you better hope to god your infuser is paying attention or you're just done. The funny part is, the situation above isn't even that scary to a good monk - what's a hell of a lot scarier is when several other people on your team are taking monster damage, you don't know what's putting them down, and you have to decide, 10 seconds ago, who to heal first. PvE monking is tame.

Age · Sep 11, 2006, 11:34 PM // 23:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Fuhon

My point being that a bad monk is a dead monk anywhere you go. What good is all the damage the warrior plans to be doing, when the monk decides to tank? In the situation of a warrior getting hit by about 5-6 weak mobs, Healing Seed would be the best situational heal in the game over Heal Party and Orison clones. Condition removal rarely prevent deaths, it just allows you to keep attacking. I don't enjoy warping to outpost 20 minutes after starting a mission, so I do what I can do.

Watch GvG to see a bunch of helpless warriors stand around as the guild lord gets beaten on, since the support characters are already dead. Now go to PvE, where there's no guarantee that the monk is any good, and the support characters are fire nuker, SS, and other damage dealers. Who makes up for the mistakes that are so commonly made that cause groups to wipe? The answer can be the character you build, despite the fact that you are most efficient at doing something else.

Condition removal on a PvE warrior? When is the timing so crucial that you need blind, bleed, or disease removed immediately? The monsters don't spike you out with Deep Wound either. If the healers are so bad that there is no condition removal, you can expect a wipe because you are already counting on these people for the hardest part of the mission. But all it takes is one bad player to lead the mobs back onto the healer from the sides to bring about the same outcome, which is ultimately preventable.

Autoattack warriors are powerful, and the high Healing Prayers only takes the place of Tactics on Heal Signet. I can still run high Strength and high weapon mastery, meaning that I'm also packing Eviscerate/Triple Chop and you wouldn't notice a difference. I've also run this in Random Arenas once for a 10 win streak because no one shuts down the warrior using Healing Seed when they gang up on someone. But this isn't something that I'll say works all the time, so my comments remain specifically for PvE (hence my use of the words "aggro" and "Rebirth"). Different situations require a different adaptation to succeed.

What is the need for this post and for bringing in GvG into it?That is entirely different I was just talking about a Warrior useing seed on someone.

Master Fuhon · Sep 12, 2006, 08:35 PM // 20:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

What is the need for this post and for bringing in GvG into it?That is entirely different I was just talking about a Warrior useing seed on someone.

You say so little that it warrants such long answers to try to figure out exactly why you are saying something. This isn't excessive information I'm providing; you should adequately convey what your problem is with a single teammate healing skill on a warrior. Is there as little substance to what you are saying as there appears to be, that I should just not respond?

Look at the context of where a support warrior is needed, and you will see how GvG fits into it. The PvP discussion only has to do with the flexibility of the warrior class. I suggest you not look at this as any plain old warrior bringing Healing Seed, but as someone who also plays Elementalist/Monk support as bringing Healing Seed. When I play warrior, I'm not blindly focusing on my target as much as I am scanning the scene for targets that get to the backline during the time the warrior autoattacks. The point is I know when to use Healing Seed, and I know when it just sits on my bar like a Rez Signet would. For that matter I could be using Heal Other.

My original use of Healing Seed on a warrior was in a few of the Maguuma Jungle missions, where you fight those warrior Centaur creatures who use Swift Chop/Seeking Blade. My old method of using Protector's Defense's wasn't working on keeping Alesia alive long enough to map out the whole missions, so I brought healing seed. It provided just enough window of opportunity for the healing skills on her bar to recharge (I guess, since its a hench) in order to use a self heal. It also had the convenient side effect of healing the rest of the henches, who I used to focus on killing the mobs. I hope there are people who are capable of adapting to skill use in certain situations so that I do not have to give strict orders on how to do everything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

What is this a Warrior useing healing seed that is worse than those that use breeze for thier self heal.

Apparently, you have never seen the ideal Healing Seed situation in PvE, so I brought up the common scenario in PvP. Warriors are completely useless (when built for pure damage) when a support character goes down. Next, I mentioned that you can expect no healing support from the rest of your team in PvE because these characters are focused on damage. In PvP, when a monk goes down, another character picks up the slack for the healing, or uses a Rez signet immediately.

I brought up GvG because there are too many people who believe that there is a "list of rules" written on playing a warrior based on PvP strategies: high damage, low support, IAS, speed boosts, etc. People are always mistakenly transplanting this information to PvE, where using a defensive stance (occasionally) and drawing the aggro of the mobs before a caster does will provide the necessary support that a monk needs. The ideal warrior damage teams are based around Orders and having at least 5 physical damaging characters. In a team of 2-3 warriors, you are still expected to body block/soak damage.

The warrior support role is based on being the primary person taking damage, while being able to deal a decent amount of damage to individual targets that threaten casters. In a group where the other players are actively subverting this goal, warriors spend most of the time killing threats to the backline (aka defending). Healing Seed is the same use as Healing Hands, but I save my elite slot for a damge skill. I'll let the other warrior go in first and draw the aggro, and pick out any mob that appears to break through (it has to be done fast with how the aggro works). At that point, I can allow the other warrior to main tank, while I spend my time defending. Multiple main tanks ruin the aggro for fire nuking, SS, etc., so the second warrior on this type of team already has a different role from the first. I don't understand why these types of teams even ask for 2 tanks, but I'll take whatever group I can join and fulfill more of the role that the group needs.

To put it in other terms, in PvE you score team kills, instead of individual ones, from the use of nuking. Team kills are done by a nuker/SS/MM. So the warrior supports them in this case, by focusing the aggro. With focused aggro, the warrior can be doing pretty much anything he wants to do, and he should be supporting the higher priority characters in the build. This is how stance tanks and farming runs came to be. 55 monk is the best tank in the game, and he supports the best damage dealer by healing himself. A second tank is redundant. It's all a matter of the commonly used PvE builds that it works this way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

The only skill a W/Mo should have is mend ailment,puge conditions or signet....

Monk skill condition removal on a PvE warrior is just as much of a joke as Healing Seed should be, aside from one mission I can think of in Prophecies. It's the one with the packs of Skeleton Sorcerers who can keep Blinding Flash maintained across 3 damage dealers. There's almost no need for any full-time monks in a few of those missions anyway (Yes, I cast Healing Seed on the chosen Villagers under attack from Avicara in that mission too). Fingers of Chaos isn't something that a warrior should be wasting his energy on.

Timmy! · Apr 29, 2007, 09:27 PM // 21:27

How does tanking make things take twice as long? If the monsters are attacking the tank, everyone else is alive and free to pound on the monsters. Also, "stay in the backline" is fine in theory... except that I see so many fights degenerate into swirling melees where it's just one big mob. If nobody's tanking, there IS no backline.
Finally, if I'm kiting as a monk, or even standing still and keeping myself alive, then unless I'm a bonder I'm not doing my job of keeping everyone else alive. It's far better for the monsters to be attacking the warriors, who have heavy armor, reducing the pressure on me so I can watch the fight and do what I do best.