Curse

kel77 · Dec 15, 2007, 02:30 AM // 02:30

Ok so after reading up a bit on monk skills and builds, I decided to throw this together. It is a simple WoH hybrid build.
Skills are:
[skill]Word of Healing[/skill][skill]Cure Hex[/skill][skill]Dwayna's Kiss[/skill][skill]Mend Condition[/skill][skill]Reversal of Fortune[/skill][skill]Shielding Hands[/skill][skill]dark escape[/skill][skill]Restore Life[/skill]

The pro's of this build: All skills are 5 energy, Powerful healing, good protection spells, condition removal, hex removal, self-defense(kind of), rez

My concerns are:No energy management, hero seems to like to cast RoF and Shielding Hands on same target at same time, maybe dark escape is not that good? Choose different secondary?

Your thoughts on this build?

For maximum effect, I would probably run two of these builds...
Is this a bad idea? should one be hybrid and one be pure prot?
Thanks

Joshie0808 · Dec 15, 2007, 05:13 AM // 05:13

I assume your trying to get a good build for your heroes right, and not for yourself?

The main problem with prot skills on AI monks is that they tend to stack them in a bad way on people taking damage. Protection is meant to "prevent" damage, and not.. to heal ppl thru divine favor, which the hero AI doesnt really understand.

Also, using dark escape on the hero.. kinda a waste (imo only) because of its short duration (i would advise against specing lots into shadow arts on a monk) and its long recharge. Generally, I run something along the lines of:

WoH, Cure Hex, Dwanya's Kiss, Dismiss condition, Word of Comfort, Healing Whisper, Glyph of lesser energy, {res skill of choice}

Above build is a pure healer, and take a pure prot hero along. If you are gonna bring 2 heroes anyways, dont bring 2 hybrids, bring 1 healer, 1 prot. And in areas where only one monk is needed.. healing usually does the job just fine (except in Hard Mode 4 man areas, but then I wouldnt trust a hero monk to keep me alive there anyways, no matter what the build is). The reason not to bring 2 hybrids is that sometimes, they both use shielding hands/SoA on the same target or something and.. that doesnt exactly double its duration or w/e, so its a total waste of energy.

The build you posted above while the AI will have some flaws using it like you mentioned, is still quite good tho, the only change I would make is making the secondary profession elementalist and bringing GoLE. Oh, and I would disable restore life and manually activate it when needed because heroes or henchies for that matter (especially the monks) tend to try to res in combat at the WORST times possible.

kel77 · Dec 15, 2007, 05:06 PM // 17:06

First of all, the above poster made some excellent points and basically confirmed all of my worries.

Sorry I forgot to put a few things in my first post.
1. This is for a hero.
2. Attributes are
Healing Prayers 12+2
Divine Favor 9+1
Protection Prayers 9+1
Shadow Arts 3 ?
3. As said in above post, yes the hero does seem to like to stack prot on one person.
4. GoLE heroes don't use well so I don't see a point in taking it. I want a secondary that gives some sort of self-defense for the hero, and dark escape lasts for 7 seconds as is, which is not to short I think. Before I always used mesmer for [skill]Power Drain[/skill] and [skill]Leech Signet[/skill]
Perhaps a warrior can provide a decent stance for defense?
5. Ya I'll definitely turn off the rez.

The main reason I'm making this build is that I already had a pure healer and it seems that 5-6 healing spells is just too redundant. So I read a few monk threads and decided to try to make a hybrid build. Is it really better to have one pure healer and one pure protector?
Thanks

kel77 · Dec 15, 2007, 05:08 PM // 17:08

One more thing I forgot

I usually play with only H/H
In most places, would it be better to take a healing hench and protection hero, or vice versa? Because I only have access to one monk hero(Ogden).

Draginvry · Dec 15, 2007, 07:15 PM // 19:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by kel77

Is it really better to have one pure healer and one pure protector?

Yes. And I always prefer taking the healer over the protector, because heros are horrible at protection. They will often stack spells like Reversal of Fortune, Shielding Hands, Guardian, and Shield of Absorption all on the same person. Unless you want to micro, it is risky using more than one of those skills on their bar. You may end up with one character being nigh invincible for eight seconds, while the rest of your party is dying and the monk is out of energy.

kel77 · Dec 17, 2007, 04:48 AM // 04:48

I would still like more peoples opinions and input...

Epic Monkey Battle · Dec 17, 2007, 04:56 AM // 04:56

If you are taking to hero monks, a hybrid WoH monk similar to they one have posted would do, and maybe something like an RC/Divert Hexes on the other monk (depending on the area you are in) but I wouldn't take two WoH monks as that becomes too redundant and you'll get overhealing on targets.

As for e management on a hero I like Mo/Me with power drain because heroes are great at interupting. So the two bars i would run are,

[skill]Protective Spirit[/skill][skill]Word Of Healing[/skill][skill]Reversal Of Fortune[/skill][skill]Signet Of Rejuvenation[/skill][skill]Shielding Hands[/skill][skill]Dismiss Condition[/skill][skill]Cure Hex[/skill][skill]Power Drain[/skill]

[skill]Spirit Bond[/skill][skill]Restore Condition[/skill][skill]Reversal Of Fortune[/skill][skill]Gift Of Health[/skill][skill]Shield Of Absorption[/skill][skill]Remove Hex[/skill][skill]Guardian[/skill][skill]Power Drain[/skill]

nighthawk329 · Dec 17, 2007, 05:15 AM // 05:15

Hey Kelgrael!

I would agree with Epic Monkey Battle. Hybrids are generally better since 5 healing skills on a pure healer of any sort is completely redundant.

The two builds posted by Epic Monkey Battle complement each other very well. But RC is really only useful in certain specific areas with a lot of conditions. Same goes for Divert Hexes. So in areas that don't necessitate either of these, I suggest replacing it with either another WoH (double WoH isn't that bad), or even Glimmer. WoH can take care of spikes, and Glimmer can patch up any other damage. I'd also stick Aegis on at least one of them.

I'd recommend (in places where RC/Divert is useless):
[skill]word of healing[/skill][skill]signet of rejuvenation[/skill][skill]protective spirit[/skill][skill]shielding hands[/skill][skill]aegis[/skill][skill]dismiss condition[/skill][skill]cure hex[/skill][skill]power drain[/skill]
[skill]word of healing[/skill][skill]dwayna's kiss[/skill][skill]spirit bond[/skill][skill]shield of absorption[/skill][skill]guardian[/skill][skill]dismiss condition[/skill][skill]cure hex[/skill][skill]power drain[/skill]

Washi · Dec 17, 2007, 09:52 AM // 09:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by kel77

One more thing I forgot

I usually play with only H/H
In most places, would it be better to take a healing hench and protection hero, or vice versa? Because I only have access to one monk hero(Ogden).

If you play H/H I would strongly suggest to take 2 hench monks and 2 hench ele and then try to give your heroes some offense. Monk henchies are just fine imo and herta is helping with wards too. If you take hero monks you will have to take offensive henchmen and to tell you the truth there are not many worth the spot.

Age · Dec 18, 2007, 12:22 AM // 00:22

Glyph of lessor Energy work really well on hero Monks as well.

Darkside · Dec 18, 2007, 01:36 AM // 01:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by nighthawk329

Hey Kelgrael!

I would agree with Epic Monkey Battle. Hybrids are generally better since 5 healing skills on a pure healer of any sort is completely redundant.

The two builds posted by Epic Monkey Battle complement each other very well. But RC is really only useful in certain specific areas with a lot of conditions. Same goes for Divert Hexes. So in areas that don't necessitate either of these, I suggest replacing it with either another WoH (double WoH isn't that bad), or even Glimmer. WoH can take care of spikes, and Glimmer can patch up any other damage. I'd also stick Aegis on at least one of them.

I'd recommend (in places where RC/Divert is useless):
[skill]word of healing[/skill][skill]signet of rejuvenation[/skill][skill]protective spirit[/skill][skill]shielding hands[/skill][skill]aegis[/skill][skill]dismiss condition[/skill][skill]cure hex[/skill][skill]power drain[/skill]
[skill]word of healing[/skill][skill]dwayna's kiss[/skill][skill]spirit bond[/skill][skill]shield of absorption[/skill][skill]guardian[/skill][skill]dismiss condition[/skill][skill]cure hex[/skill][skill]power drain[/skill]

I personally take the healer henchmen rather then waste one of my hero slots on a healer. If I'm playing with other people I generally run a hybrid with more focus on healing then prot.

[skill]Word of Healing[/skill]
[skill]Dwayna's Kiss[/skill]
[skill]Signet of Rejuvenation[/skill]
[skill]Aegis[/skill]
[skill]Dismiss Condition[/skill]
[skill]Cure Hex[/skill]
[skill]Power Drain[/skill]
optional

You get the benefit of Powerful healing from WoH as well as a couple secondary healing spells in Dwayna's kiss (can be replaced with another healing spell if your party doesn't run many enchantments) Signet of Rejuvenation helps keep energy costs low, Aegis for party wide protection, Dismiss Condition and Cure Hex are always good to have around to remove nasty conditions like blind from warriors or backfire from casters, and finally power drain for an interupt and energy management. Optional slot can be another e-management skill or hard res...if you choose to go hard res be sure to disable it until you want them to use it. Otherwise as soon as someone dies they are going to attempt a res and most likely someone else will die as well.

Marverick · Dec 18, 2007, 01:57 AM // 01:57

Hybrids are better than one pure of each. That way when one Monk gets DP'd out the entire team doesn't automatically go down.

[skill]Aegis[/skill][skill]Signet of Rejuvenation[/skill][skill]Word of Healing[/skill][skill]Guardian[/skill][skill]Shield of Absorption[/skill][skill]Protective Spirit[/skill][skill]Dismiss Condition[/skill][wiki]Cure hex[/wiki]
[skill]Aegis[/skill][skill]Reversal of Fortune[/skill][skill]Guardian[/skill][skill]Shield of Absorption[/skill][skill]Protective Spirit[/skill][skill]Blessed Light[/skill][skill]Power Drain[/skill][wiki]Waste Not, Want Not[/wiki]

nighthawk329 · Dec 18, 2007, 02:37 AM // 02:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkside

I personally take the healer henchmen rather then waste one of my hero slots on a healer. If I'm playing with other people I generally run a hybrid with more focus on healing then prot.

That's what I would do personally too, if I weren't playing a monk. Both henchmen together are usually enough to take on NM, and a lot of HM. It always makes more sense to fill your hero slots with things that henchmen can't do (MM, SF, SS, etc.)

But the OP still is looking for good monk hero builds. Your build is mostly good, but if you're going into any area with hard hitting mobs (i.e. HM, some later parts of the campaigns in NM), you are going to need at least a big prot like PS or SB. Even if the hero uses it on the wrong person, it's better than nothing.

Maverick's build is also a good choice. It's usually ok to repeat prots on heroes because heroes never cast an enchantment on an ally who already has that enchantment on them. The only thing I'd switch is Blessed Light. It's not worth it. Heroes usually spam it when the ally doesn't gain full benefit, so a WoH or Glimmer + cure hex or dismiss will heal for more health for the same energy. Switch it for something else, and replace Waste not, want not with a cond removal if needed.

distilledwill · Dec 18, 2007, 08:05 AM // 08:05

Ive been running a WoH hybrid with WoH as my only heal spell and the rest in prot, its been working perfectly. However, this may be down to the fact that this is on my paragon with TNTF!

TNTF>PvE

Antithesis · Dec 18, 2007, 08:14 AM // 08:14

Basic WoH builds do the job more often than not. There's no way Hero monks are running Aegis, Protective Spirit and Blessed Light on the same bar without running out of energy, they can't even handle a single 10 energy spammable spell without getting themselves into trouble. Divert Hexes & RC monks are of limited use in PvE and both run out of energy pretty easily in hex/condition heavy areas. You're often better off just powering through with something like [skill=text]Light of Deliverance[/skill] or [skill=text]Word of Healing[/skill].

Mo/Me Healer

[skill]Word of Healing[/skill][skill]Dwayna's Kiss[/skill][skill]Signet of Rejuvenation[/skill][skill]Aegis[/skill][skill]Dismiss Condition[/skill][skill]Power Drain[/skill][skill]Resurrection Chant[/skill]

Mo/Me Protection

[skill]Word of Healing[/skill][skill]Reversal of Fortune[/skill][skill]Guardian[/skill][skill]Aegis[/skill][skill]Dismiss Condition[/skill][skill]Power Drain[/skill][skill]Resurrection Chant[/skill]

There's a lot of common skills in the thread. I'd toss in [skill=text]Protective Spirit[/skill] and [skill=text]Spirit Bond[/skill] if Hero monks didn't run out of energy spamming them. [skill=text]Shield of Absorption[/skill] and [skill=text]Shielding Hands[/skill] are worthwhile taking, but i'd rather fast recharge skills on the bar.

The monks are still likely to run themselves low on energy, so out of curiosity and boredom I've been mucking around with Hero builds for the past couple of weeks to see if there are other viable bars to run. The following skillbars have worked out pretty well for me -

Protection E/Mo

[skill]Master of Magic[/skill][skill]Reversal of Fortune[/skill][skill]Guardian[/skill][skill]Aegis[/skill][skill]Smite Hex[/skill][skill]Zealot's Fire[/skill][skill]Resurrection Chant[/skill]

Notes: I got the idea from the GvG E/Mo Master of Magic Smiter on PvXwiki. I wanted a mix of damage and protection with good energy management and Vekk runs this like a trooper. He doesn't spam RoF or Guardian (triggering ZF) unless you're under pressure, but when he gets going the additional Smite damage helps when you need it most and he rarely runs low on energy. The RoF and Guardian spam + smite damage + excellent energy management contributes to the team both offensively & defensively and can go a long way to preventing a wipe.

Aegis or Guardian may be subbed out for [skill=text]Judge's Insight[/skill], [skill=text]Protective Spirit[/skill] or [skill=text]Extinguish[/skill] in condition heavy areas like Sacnoth Valley so there is some flexibility in skill selection. Castigation Signet could be included if energy management is a problem, but it shouldn't be.

Protection N/Mo

[skill]Shield of Deflection[/skill][skill]Reversal of Fortune[/skill][skill]Guardian[/skill][skill]Shield of Absorption[/skill][skill]Shielding Hands[/skill][skill]Dismiss Condition[/skill][skill]Resurrection Chant[/skill]

Notes: Works fine. Holds up to skill spam pressure much better than a monk but needs corpses to power energy. It can handle Aegis, Protective Spirit or Spirit Bond on the bar. [skill=text]Zealous Benediction[/skill] and [skill=text]Shield of Regeneration[/skill] also work as the elite but are weaker options. I guess it wouldn't have too many problems handling [skill=text]Divert Hexes[/skill] or [skill=text]Restore Condition[/skill] given there's so much energy splashing around from Soul Reaping.

Healing N/Mo

[skill]Word of Healing[/skill][skill]Dwayna's Kiss[/skill][skill]Words of Comfort[/skill][skill]Ethereal Light[/skill][skill]Dismiss Condition[/skill][skill]Resurrection Chant[/skill]

Notes: Runs fine. Energy management is much better than a monk as long as you're killing enemies. Five heals might seem like overkill but when multiple targets are taking damage or one is being spiked or interrupts are flying around, it's not a bad idea to have a heal spell available to mop up the damage. I don't like Signet of Rejuvenation - heroes tend to wait until it recharges instead of using a spell that's ready to go.

Personally, i'd run with an N/Mo protector and healer any day of the week, they just keep going and going and going...they gain energy whether you're winning or losing the battle and it takes a fair amount of AoE damage to cause a total party wipe.

How well your monks perform is ultimately up to your overall team build. For example, if you toss in a [skill=text]Jagged Bones[/skill] MM, a [skill=text]Searing Flames[/skill] Ele and a Para with [skill=text]Defensive Anthem[/skill], [skill=text]"They're on Fire!"[/skill], [skill=text]Aria of Restoration[/skill] and [skill=text]Ballad of Restoration[/skill] on the bar, the monks are going to have an easier time.

In the end you rarely take monk Heroes - the henchies do just fine and offensive Heroes are a much better option. You can easily substitute Monks with E/Mo's or N/Mo's - ele's and necros have better energy management but you do sacrifice divine favour and rune bonuses.

Cathode_Reborn · Dec 18, 2007, 09:40 AM // 09:40

I noticed many people use Dismiss Condition on their heroes. I was testing a random build on the Isle of the nameless and decided to try it out since I always use Mend condition....the monk never casted Dismiss on itself. One thing I like about Mend is the healing req is always met.

It's been a long time since I used a prot monk - they run out of energy fast often. There's that, the recently buffed elites, and the update that made heroes use weapon spells properly. I do wanna test an N/Mo prot though.... Divine favor usually should be set very high since prot spells don't heal directly but still function very well even at r12. N/Mo would have the advantage of being able to use expensive elites you could never trust a hero monk with (Shield of regeneration/Deflection, and maybe ZB). Spirit Bond is also very effective in HM.

Also tried this for e-management on a monk:
[skill]Defender's Zeal[/skill]

They seemed to be decent with it, but didn't test enough. In HM though, it can get the monk back alota energy sometimes.

Antithesis · Dec 18, 2007, 10:58 AM // 10:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn

I do wanna test an N/Mo prot though....
--snip--
Also tried this for e-management on a monk:
[skill]Defender's Zeal[/skill]

I agree with the potential of an N/Mo prot, been meaning to test that myself.
I tried Defender's Zeal when searching for a viable defensive smite build, i found that most enemies die before it becomes a useful source of energy.
[edit] I tried out a number of N/Mo healers and protectors and have posted a working build in the previous post.

Cathode_Reborn · Dec 18, 2007, 09:01 PM // 21:01

[skill]Signet of Lost Souls[/skill][skill]Shield of Deflection[/skill][skill]Protective Spirit[/skill][skill]Aegis[/skill][skill]Shield of Absorption[/skill][skill]Reversal of Fortune[/skill][skill]Spirit Bond[/skill][skill]Mend Condition[/skill]

[skill]Signet of Lost Souls[/skill][skill]Shield of Regeneration[/skill][skill]Protective Spirit[/skill][skill]Aegis[/skill][skill]Guardian[/skill][skill]Reversal of Fortune[/skill][skill]Spirit Bond[/skill][skill]Mend Condition[/skill]

Tried these out in g.o.l.e.m. HM (didn't use both at the same time)....went pretty easy. I don't think I'll ever switch back to a primary prot monk - as long as there's a steady amount of deaths the nec should have enough energy to spam. It relies abit heavy on deaths though, since when a target takes a high bit of damage they're quick to slap on Prot Spirit/Spirit Bond/SoR/SoD. Assuming there's plenty of deaths happening, that could be a good thing (bringing an MM can help). Used a major rune to get it's SR upto 15. Both builds have pretty much no direct healing but combines well with any other type of healer.

Been using this for a bit on a monk:

[skill]Signet of Rejuvenation[/skill][skill]Healer's Boon[/skill][skill]Dwayna's kiss[/skill][skill]Ethereal Light[/skill][skill]Orison of Healing[/skill][skill]Mend Condition[/skill][skill]Resurrection Chant[/skill] Cure Hex

EDIT: Replaced Healing whisper with Ethereal light. Odgen got spam happy with it and was killing his energy a tad abit. Usually didn't have this problem before but don't wanna risk his energy goin dead at a bad time.

Sethellington · Dec 18, 2007, 09:12 PM // 21:12

Basically just fixed your build:

[skill]Word of Healing[/skill][skill]Cure Hex[/skill][skill]Dwayna's Kiss[/skill][skill]Dismiss Condition[/skill][skill]Reversal of Fortune[/skill][skill]Shield of Absorption[/skill][skill]guardian[/skill]+a utility slot.

GoLE is not needed as all is 5 energy, I'd recommend an inspiration interrupt. Good luck.

kel77 · Dec 19, 2007, 06:37 PM // 18:37

Lol you replaced some good skills with two skills I don't have access to. I stated earlier I don't have NF.