Curse

Kwan Xi · Jan 16, 2008, 04:35 AM // 04:35

We've all heard this about monk builds, it's either Hybrids only, or full heal/protect = fail. Despite what everyone here says about Hybrids being better I still think 1 Heal and 1 Protect are still just as good in PvE as 2 Hybrids monks. Notice I said they are just as good NOT better! In a 8 man party two monks are the standard as long as the two builds work well together the party should still be alright.

Here are two basic monk builds I use on my Monk and/or with my Heroes, or can be used together with another monk player. Both these builds working together should get you through almost all PvE areas in the game.

Healing Monk
Attributes: Healing Prayers 12 Divine Favor 12 (Runes not Included)
[skill]Ethereal Light[/skill][skill]Dwayna's Kiss[/skill][skill]Words of Comfort[/skill][skill]Orison of healing[/skill][skill]Light of Deliverance[/skill][skill]Holy Haste[/skill][skill]Resurrection Chant[/skill]

Holy Haste halves the casting time of all skills on the bar including Res Chant for quick Resurrection when needed. Having more then one or two heal skills is useful when the group comes under heavy attack, as the monk will always have a heal ready on demand instead of using two heals and having to wait while they recharge. 5 Energy and HCT from HHaste allows LoD to be a pretty spamable party heal.

Variants:

Recently I followed a suggestion here and replaced [skill]Words of Comfort[/skill] with [skill]Dismiss Condition[/skill] . A good substitute even at low levels of protection prayers.
[skill]Light of Deliverance[/skill] can be replaced with [skill]Word of Healing[/skill] If you don't think your going to need a Party Wide heal.
[skill]Holy Haste[/skill]&[skill]Light of Deliverance[/skill] can be replaced with[skill]Healer's Boon[/skill]&[skill]Signet of Rejuvenation[/skill] heals become stronger in addition to the HCT and Signet of Rejuvenation can be used as energy management. Or you can use Heal Party with Healer's Boon but you might want to bring a way to manage your energy if you do.

Protect Monk
Attributes: Protection Prayers 12 Divine Favor 12 (Runes not Included)
[skill]Reversal of Fortune[/skill][skill]Guardian[/skill][skill]Dismiss Condition[/skill][skill]Protective Spirit[/skill][skill]Aegis[/skill][skill]Zealous Benediction[/skill][skill]Remove Hex[/skill][skill]Rebirth[/skill]

This Protect Monk is the complement to the Healer Monk above, remember these two builds are to complement and support each other, they aren't meant to be used alone. This build provides the standard load out of skills which should serve most Protection needs, Aegis is here for a party wide protection against packs of melee mobs, and Guardian is there for use while Aegis is recharging (or if it gets interrupted). Zealous Benediction is there as a good solid elite that works in almost any PvE situation, and a emergency heal when needed.

Variants:

[skill]Spirit Bond[/skill] can be added if you want though Protective Spirit is still preferred over bond.

[skill]Gift of Health[/skill] can replace Guardian or Aegis if you don't like the idea having both in the skill bar. I would recommend having healing prayers at around 8-10 if you want to use it though.

[skill]Zealous Benediction[/skill] can be replaced with [skill]Shield of Regeneration[/skill] [skill]Restore Condition[/skill] [skill]Divert Hexes[/skill] or just about any other elite in Protection Prayers to suit certain situations. (ie: areas with lots of condition or hex stacking)

Replacing [skill]Rebirth[/skill] with [skill]Glyph of Lesser Energy[/skill] because If I'm the monk I generally play the protect and the Hero Monk plays the healer because a human player usually does a better job with protection spells then a Hero or Hench. Since they sometimes blow all their energy on Rebirth rezing consider replacing it with some energy management like GoLE or another Protect Skill.

Well thats is it, I use these two builds for most of my monking in PvE I posted them on here because of all the complaints people have against anyone not running a Hybrid.

I have nothing against Hybrid monks as are very useful and I probably prefer them in PvP Combat, or areas that only allow 4-6 man groups. However in PvE I believe 1 Heal and 1 Protect are just as good as Hybrids and here is my evidence. These builds are a tried and true system that has never failed me.

I just thought I put my builds out there to support what I've been saying all this time. Feel free to ask questions, comments, and flame me all you want. I mainly want to see if these builds work as well for you guys as it has for me.

Keekles · Jan 16, 2008, 04:47 AM // 04:47

While I agree that 1 prot 1 heal works in pve, I personally prefer to run a hybrid. Especially if I end up joining a PUG. Generally, what I've discovered is many monks I run into in PUGs have bars that are so bad that I end up having to take on most of the burden. If I had not been hybrid, then we probably would have wiped.

Personal experience has pushed me to prefering hybrid over specific, but I don't think that there's anything wrong with running one of each over running 2 hybrids. But if you're running with humans, you'll have to hope that the other person can run their bar intelligently, otherwise your group will either be without proper prot or without proper healing.

Just my opinion. :]

Stormlord Alex · Jan 16, 2008, 05:13 AM // 05:13

As cute as it all is, the fact is two hybrid monks that know what they're doing will outperform a prot and a heal. Pure heal is wasteful - look at your own bar, you could drop Orison and Light/Words and never know the difference.

If the prot is worth his salt, the healer will do little more than push LoD on recharge with the occaisional Cure Hex. Likewise, if the shit hits the fan and bars go down, the prot has no decent way of making them go up. Also, if things really go awry and one of the monks drops, a hybrid is flexible enough to keep up a team by himself, whereas pure heal/prot isn't (excepting ZB, which is healing and kinda lame outside of 4-man).

Indeed, dual hybrids sync better than anything else, IMO. They both get to keep the non-trash heals (... umm... ok, Kiss and Word and maybe Sig of Rejuv), and get to cover all of the prots without redundancy - they can both take Aegis, chain it with a 3rd party member even, they both get RoF which is awesomesauce, and they can cover all of the power prots (SB and PS) and little prots (AoA, SH, Guardian) between them.

[skill]word of healing[/skill][skill]dwayna's kiss[/skill][skill]reversal of fortune[/skill][skill]protective spirit[/skill][skill]aegis[/skill][skill]glyph of lesser energy[/skill][skill]dismiss condition[/skill]

[skill]word of healing[/skill][skill]dwayna's kiss[/skill][skill]reversal of fortune[/skill][skill]spirit bond[/skill][skill]aegis[/skill][skill]glyph of lesser energy[/skill][skill]dismiss condition[/skill][skill]holy veil[/skill] or another copy of Cure Hex if you don't have enough red-bars-go-up.

The beauty of this, of course, is that the second guy could happily run a different elite to deal with specific situations... And still go hybrid without losing much. You don't need 13 DF, a 10 spec Gift is ftw.

[skill]restore condition[/skill][skill]gift of health[/skill][skill]reversal of fortune[/skill][skill]shield of absorption[/skill][skill]spirit bond[/skill][skill]aegis[/skill][skill]glyph of lesser energy[/skill][skill]holy veil[/skill]
... for instance.

edit: just touching a few bits up, 9-skill monks ftw

Mr Pink57 · Jan 16, 2008, 05:31 AM // 05:31

^^Even on the WoH bar I have found no reason even for a second heal, I have gotten thru most of it with just WoH. The only time I take kiss is when I do those tank and spank groups as it acts as a infuse on a obi tank.

EDIT: I usually split 9 into divine and 11 into healing when I take GoH.

pink

Kwan Xi · Jan 16, 2008, 10:45 AM // 10:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keekles

I run into in PUGs have bars that are so bad that I end up having to take on most of the burden. If I had not been hybrid, then we probably would have wiped.

Its why the ping skill bar was invented, when I join a PuG I ping my skill bar and if I don't 90% of the time I will be asked to ping my bar. In my experience monks with bad builds are usually kicked from the group. It's also a good way to see what other monks in the group are running and then adapt your skills to suit the group's needs. (like switching to a Hybrid)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

As cute as it all is, the fact is two hybrid monks that know what they're doing will outperform a prot and a heal.

Key note: monks have to know what they are doing. This might not be a problem in GvG and HA, but in PvE with a PuG or Hero/Hench AI it can become a problem if the other monk isn't as "good" as you are. Also I want to say once again I'm not dissing Hybrids! Never on this forum have I said Hybrids are bad.

If we look at your builds they are solid builds you have 2 basic healing spells on each one, 2x2=4 Spells total put them on one skill bar and it's basically one healing monk bar same with the protect skills put them all together and you can have a full protect monk bar.

In many ways this simplifies things for monks in PvE one concentrates on casting protection while the other monk keeps all the red bars up. It also helps limit a phenomenon I've seen in some PuGs where two monks attempt to heal the same target resulting in one monk wasting energy over healing. Ask yourself this, is it easier to one task, or two at the same time? Also if you try out the heal/protect setup I don't think you will see the dramatic drop in performance you're complaining about if any at all.

Remember this setup is PvE NOT PvP, lets face it enemies in PvE aren't that bright, they can be annoying but mostly their behavior is predictable. The only time my monks go down in PvE and the party wipes is due to human error (for me it's usually over aggroing too many enemies). Even if one monk does goes down its not the end of the freakin world, if you have other Heroes or Henches they usually drop everything and immediately start using their res skills whether you like it or not.

The only problem for this setup would be if your in an area with enemies running this [skill]Power Block[/skill] and its not like that is being widely used either, only certain areas like the Charr Homelands.

Edit: BTW to anyone wanting to try these builds out I'm going to assume will run through an area with some intelligence. As in not run around like an idiot aggroing every single red dot you see on the freakin map.

Tab · Jan 16, 2008, 10:53 AM // 10:53

More than two skills on one bar is useless due to cast times, aftercast and recharge. Even spamming on recharge, you'll never get enough use out of them all.
Similarly, there's not enough good prot skills that aren't similar to warrant a pure prot bar, and if both monks have some prot, you're more likely to catch stuff.
Hybrid monks are just more effective. The only time I even run 'pure prot' is in RA/TA with a ZB bar, but seeing as it's got a heal, it's practically a hybrid.

JoeKnowMo · Jan 16, 2008, 06:04 PM // 18:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kwan Xi

Its why the ping skill bar was invented, when I join a PuG I ping my skill bar and if I don't 90% of the time I will be asked to ping my bar. In my experience monks with bad builds are usually kicked from the group.

Monks with really, really terribad builds are kicked. Monks with bad builds (like a pure heal bar) end up staying. Monks with high energy spells and no e-mgmt end up staying.

Quote:

It's also a good way to see what other monks in the group are running and then adapt your skills to suit the group's needs. (like switching to a Hybrid)

99% of the time the other monk will be running pure heal with WoH or HBoon. And if the monk is pure prot, that's even worse because they likely won't pre-prot and won't contribute to making red bars go up. So you may as well spec for hybrid by default anyway.

Quote:

Key note: monks have to know what they are doing. This might not be a problem in GvG and HA, but in PvE with a PuG or Hero/Hench AI it can become a problem if the other monk isn't as "good" as you are.

A bad monk would still be more useful if they went hybrid rather than pure heal or prot.

Stormlord Alex · Jan 16, 2008, 06:32 PM // 18:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeKnowMo

A bad monk would still be more useful if they went hybrid rather than pure heal or prot.

This is pure truth.
At the very least, giving a shit monk a hybrid bar removes all the useless trash heals he'd usually bring (Breeze, Orison, you know... crap). Even if he never touches his prot, just having him hit Kiss and Word only has made him a much stronger player, he's no longer wasting his energy on useless shit.

Hey, and if you're lucky he might just use Prot Spirit sort-of ok.
... stranger things have happened

Zamochit · Jan 16, 2008, 07:21 PM // 19:21

The main problem I find with running a hero "pure prot" is that they will stack prots on the same target. You will find one member of your party almost entirely invulnerable and your prot hero struggling with energy management, this is especially true if you utilise more than one 10e cost spell on your hero ~ ie aegis and PS/SB.

Because of this in the unlikely event that I take a monk hero, I would agree that you need to either give them a healing role or a hybrid role, preferably hybrid ofc ~ the AI just doesn't prot as intellegently as it heals...Try giving Ogden Sheild of deflection for a laugh and watch his energy bar.

Grammar · Jan 16, 2008, 10:53 PM // 22:53

Problem #1: There aren't enough good healing skills to fill an entire bar (not even close).

Problem #2: There aren't enough good prot spells (that aren't redundant anyway) to fill an entire bar.

Solution: Hybrid monks.

Think of the Law of Diminishing Returns in economics, only applied to your skill bar in GW.
-As a healing monk, what's more valuable to you: yet another healing spell when more than half your bar is already filled with healing spells, or a couple prot spells that give you versatility and allow you to do something you couldn't do before?
-As a prot monk, what's more valuable to you: yet another prot spell when more than half your bar is already filled with prot spells, or a heal spell or two that give you versatility and allow you to do something you couldn't do before?

I find it impossible to run pure healing or prot bars because I simply can't fill all the slots in the damn bar.
On a pure heal bar I can only fill 5/8 max, and on a prot bar I can only fill 7/8 max. So, at the very least, why not add a condition remover and 2 prot spells (like Prot Spirit and Aegis) to the heal bar, and at least 1 heal spell (like Gift of Health or Word of Healing) to the prot bar.
The difference this makes in efficiency is HUGE.

EDIT: The only possible exception to this is hero monks, where I will occasionally set up a hero monk to run a pure heal HH+LoD build to run opposite my prot heavy WoH monk. But this is only because heroes suck at prot, not because it's a good idea. I would absolutely never recommend it with two human monks, because human monks should be better at prot than heroes and therefore can run hybrids.

Age · Jan 17, 2008, 12:59 AM // 00:59

What about [skill]Shield of Deflection[/skill] or is that bad now.When it comes down to pugging most just want to go and get the darn mission over with.I don't think entire group wants to discuss who is running what most pugs would be just as happy with two healing Monks it doesn't really matter as long as the jop gets done.

When I am hero/henching I smite now instead and let the hero or hench monk do the heal and protecting.They won't complain about it and does that matter no.Don't forget this is game where real medicine isn't practiced and aren't medics on a battle field or Mash hospital.

Tab · Jan 17, 2008, 08:02 AM // 08:02

SoD isn't really needed in most PvE areas. It's more suited to spike stopping in PvP.

Valeria · Jan 17, 2008, 08:51 AM // 08:51

[skill]glimmer of light[/skill][skill]healing ribbon[/skill][skill]heal party[/skill][skill]cure hex[/skill][skill]extinguish[/skill][skill]seed of life[/skill][skill]resurrection chant[/skill][skill]signet of capture[/skill]

more or less what i used often when i was still in need of some elite skills. glimmer of light is so fast you don't fail to heal before someone dies (unlike other 1 sec spells)

Tab · Jan 17, 2008, 08:55 AM // 08:55

Have fun managing that energy.

Tamuril elansar · Jan 17, 2008, 09:12 AM // 09:12

SoD is really helpfull in desert areas in proph, against the forgotten.

zwei2stein · Jan 17, 2008, 09:26 AM // 09:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kwan Xi

Healing Monk
Attributes: Healing Prayers 12 Divine Favor 12 (Runes not Included)
[skill]Ethereal Light[/skill][skill]Dwayna's Kiss[/skill][skill]Words of Comfort[/skill][skill]Orison of healing[/skill][skill]Light of Deliverance[/skill][skill]Holy Haste[/skill][skill]Resurrection Chant[/skill]

Holy Haste halves the casting time of all skills on the bar including Res Chant for quick Resurrection when needed. Having more then one or two heal skills is useful when the group comes under heavy attack, as the monk will always have a heal ready on demand instead of using two heals and having to wait while they recharge. 5 Energy and HCT from HHaste allows LoD to be a pretty spamable party heal.

Holy Haste prevents you from casting other usefull enchants while enabling you to do combat rez on monk which we all can agree is smart tactic. When your group takes a lot of damage you really want to burn through your energy asap by cycling redundant and ineficient skills.

This is exact reason why you should run at least some prot (and frickin energy management) on monks.

Dalinia Rhayn · Jan 17, 2008, 02:05 PM // 14:05

I prefer to run a hybrid heal/prot on my monk. I've tried a lot of different builds and its the one I keep coming back to for general purposes. It just feels the most effective to me. When playing with other people, it doesn't matter as much to me what the 2nd monk has, aside from a little coordination on prot skills brought.

When I play with heroes/hench or 1 other person and heroes, I never have a 2nd monk. I take a N/Rt restoration healer (also with some utility/damage) instead and find for most situations it works well. They can handle party heals much better than a monk, leaving me free to spend more time reducing the incoming damage and less time healing.

If I ever do take a hero monk - which is rare, mainly only on missions that require Dunkoro or Tahlkora - its usually full heal, as they don't prot all that well. Usually if I'm playing a non monk character, I'll grab hench healers and load up on damage, interupts and other utility (such as wards) on my heroes.

Pyro maniac · Jan 17, 2008, 02:11 PM // 14:11

to OP:
actually your prot bar is hybrid
hybrid doesn't mean both protection prayers and healing prayers, but both heal and protection: ZB, dismiss (and probably RoF) are heal skills in protection line. Your second bar is just pretty much the standard.
People prefer WoH on that bar just because heroes (and bad monks) are smarter with it, but that doesn't make a difference.

Your heal is bar (as said earlier) is just bad. LoD + dwayna + cure hex can do the same thing as your whole bar. dropping divine to 8 and a 10 spec in protection prayers can make it alot easier if you take prot spirit/spirit bond + aegis with it.

Kwan Xi · Jan 19, 2008, 02:19 AM // 02:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

[skill]word of healing[/skill][skill]dwayna's kiss[/skill][skill]reversal of fortune[/skill][skill]protective spirit[/skill][skill]aegis[/skill][skill]glyph of lesser energy[/skill][skill]dismiss condition[/skill]

I tested this skill bar out its a good build solid, reliable, and versatile and it works... I still don't see much of a difference

. It's a nice Hybrid to use in PvE missions or quests where the group has to split up and hold two areas. Yeah in regular PvE I still think 1 heal 1 protect works just as well, its just my opinion you might get mad but seriously I think your build is good, I just don't think Hybrids matter so much in most PvE areas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeKnowMo

A bad monk would still be more useful if they went hybrid rather than pure heal or prot.

I don't believe that for one second

!Just having the right skills doesn't make you a good monk, you have to be able to use them well too. I've seen monks with very questionable skill sets in PuGs do surprisingly well, on the flip side I've seen monks with a good skill set do really bad in a PuG.

The monk's primary job is to help keep the party alive by healing and/or protecting them from damage. If a monk brings a set of skills you feel is really bad but he manages to get them to work does that really make him a bad monk? Personally I don't care what a monk's skill choices are as long as they can do their job its fine by me

.

JoeKnowMo · Jan 19, 2008, 03:24 AM // 03:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kwan Xi

I don't believe that for one second

!Just having the right skills doesn't make you a good monk, you have to be able to use them well too. I've seen monks with very questionable skill sets in PuGs do surprisingly well, on the flip side I've seen monks with a good skill set do really bad in a PuG.

I didn't say that having the right skills makes you a good monk. I said having the right skills makes you a better monk. If you suck as a monk, a better bar won't make you good, but there's a strong chance it will make you suck less.

For example, a pure healer can take Aegis. Even a bad monk can click on Aegis at the beginning of a battle. And Aegis takes the room of some bad and redundant skill like healing breeze or orison which slightly lowers their ability to overheal and waste energy.

Voila! Bad monk made better.

Same goes for pure prot. Put a few points into healing prayers and take Gift of Health. That way, instead of using RoF on a target not being attacked they can make a red bar go up every now and then.

Quote:

The monk's primary job is to help keep the party alive by healing and/or protecting them from damage. If a monk brings a set of skills you feel is really bad but he manages to get them to work does that really make him a bad monk? Personally I don't care what a monk's skill choices are as long as they can do their job its fine by me

.

How do you define getting a set of bad skills to work?

Teams can get by in PvE with a warrior who spams Flare. Does that make him a bad warrior?

In the same way, teams can get by with a monk using a bad build because the other monk and maybe a paragon or ritualist pick up the slack.

I don't just advocate a hybrid build for bad monks. If you're a decent monk, it's imperative that you go hybrid. A pure healer often likes to top off bars and ends up with struggling for energy if the battle drags long. A pure protter will often prot the wrong targets and will fail to pre-prot.