Curse

Lucia · Mar 14, 2008, 05:56 AM // 05:56

Greetings,

I'd like to share a PVE build (monk + heroes/henchmen) that has served me greatly.

Let's begin with a definition of the term "good build"; in my opinion a good (PVE) build is one that can cope with as many challenges of the game as possible and with as little tweaking (and hard work...^^) as possible. This definition actually permits us to compare any 2 builds by comparing the number of tweaks neaded for the build to be able to cope with (at least nearly) 100% of the game challenges and its ease of use. I have respect for every build that is good for something, but in my opinion a build that can’t be used in practically every PVE challenge that the game has to offer cannot be considered an exeptional build.

According to this definition, it is my opinion that the following build is exceptional; I have h/hed (hero/henched) probably nearly 100% of the game's challenges with it using, at rare cases, extremely minor tweaks (generally a change of 1 skill on 1 hero). In particular, I have completed Slaver's Exile with it (in hard mode) and Vanquished nearly all areas in all 3 campaigns and EOTN with it.

I'll discuss strengths and weaknesses of this build (every build has some) at the end of this post.

A note before I begin, this build contains no new paradigms, most skill combinations used in it have been used before. What is novel here, in my opinion, is the grouping together of all the skills into a concise 3-hero build.

Down to business;

The player (you) is a 600 Monk/Mesmer:

As usual, 1 hero is smiting:

1 hero is a prot monk:

and finally a ranger:

The henchmen I bring along are 2 monks and 2 rangers.

The setup is as follows:

1. Cast essence bond and blessed aura on yourself

2. Have the prot cast blessed aura on himself and his 3 other maintainable enchantments on you. Similarly, have the smiter cast his 4 maitainable enchantments on you

3. Basically, the heroes will be left behind - 1.5 agro bubbles from the fight is perfect as they won't join the fight but the spirit's effect will reach you and it is close enough to have a hero cast a spell on you rather fast.

4. The weapon sets; I usually use an insightful staff of enchanting on myself and on the 2 hero monks, and a sundering longbow of fortitude on the ranger. I use standard 600 monk 15AL armor.

Some general guidelines

1. The smiter generally just keeps his enchants on you, he doesn't really do much.

2. Micro manage the prot hero's aura of stability - cast it on yourself 24/7 when fighting enemies that knock down (or always if you aren't sure).

3. Micro manage the prot hero's Spell Breaker. Together with your SB (and due to blessed aura and an enchanting mod), there is nearly a 24/7 SB coverage. Use the heroes SB first so that you can time your second SB precisely.

4. It is good (but not necessary) to have Famine and EoE up before each fight. You can let the ranger use Famine on his own, I usually micro manage EoE myself because of the long recharge.

5. Use the ranger's SV and AV (sympathetic visage and ancestral visage) on yourself if you are fighting melee enemies. Start with your own SV, sometimes it's enough to kill a group, if not, have the ranger start casting too.

6. Always have mantra of resolve up when fighting enemies that interrupt (or always if you aren't sure)

7. The basic 600 strategy (using your own skills) has been discussed numerous time, I won't repeat it unless specifically asked.

8. Since many times you are the only one in agro range, you get all the XP for yourself (which also rapidly reduces DP)

The build's strengths

1. The build becomes stronger as the enemies become stronger which is it's main advantage. Generally, the stronger the enemy, the faster it attacks and the harder it hits. Smite damage and Famine damage both increase as the attack speed and brutality increase. In other words, hard mode is easier than normal mode with this build.

2. The (nearly) 24/7 SB coverage completely disables caster enemies. They usually cast several spells until they are drained of energy and/or all their skills are recharging and then turn to wand you which in hard mode induces the maximal smiting damage.

3. Enemy stances are practically useless as they take unblockable damage when they hit you.

4. Knock downs and interrupts are practically useless against you due to matra of resolve and aura of stability. Note that SV and AV deny adrenaline of the enemy and since many knockdowns require adrenaline, this is a second line of defense. Other knock downs are spells and SB is a second line of defense against these knock downs.

5. Conditions other than dazed have no impact on the you.

6. The builds skills are extremely synergetic, SV/AV drain energy from all adjacent foes which induces Famine damage each time any enemy energy reaches zero, this in turn causes enemies to die which triggers EoE damage and all this is not really necessary, but rather a bonus to the highly effective smiting damage dealt.

The builds weaknesses (quite a few, but nearly all are resolve-able)

1. As you can see, the build requires quite a bit of micro management.

2. The build is susceptible to enchantment removal that is not a targeted spell.

3. The build is susceptible to the dazed condition which will cause matra of resolve to drain you of energy and then you will be interrupted.

4. You are the center of this build, if you die, the party can't continue until you are resurrected.

5. If a are up against monks alone or other weak creatuers that can heal, they are hard to kill as they do little damage (and therefore take little damage) and heal themselves.

6. Mantra of resolve can be removed by a stance removal skill like wild strike, if enemies have both stance removal skills and interrupts it may cause a problem.

How to deal with the build's weaknesses

1. The micro management issue can be considered an additional challenge (as I feel) or a drawback and is actually a subjective matter.

2. Enchantment removal; there aren't that many enchantment removal skills that aren't targeted speels. Moreover, the player is covered with so many enchantments that the removal of 1 or 2 isn't that big a problem, they can usually be recast (sprit bond can usually be maintained 24/7 against moderatele-sized groups so removal of shield of absorption doesn't mean certain death). The bigger problems are skills that remove many or all enchantments, such as well of the profane, assault enchantments, dark apostacy and expunge enchantments. Well of the profane is avoidable, simple move away every time a foe is killed when fighting creatures that equip this well. Dark Apostacy, assault enchantments and expunge enchantments are harder to cope with and are probably the biggest threat to this build. I usually send the heroes/hench in first, hoping that the enemies "waste" the enchantment removal skills on them, then I send the heroes back past me and the enemies settle on me. The good thing is that assassin enemies die quite fast with this build due to the speed/brutality of their attacks, hopefully they die before their enchantment removal skills are recharged. A particularly mean monster shout that both removes an enchantment and dazes you is Soulrending Shriek used by Incubus in EOTN. Against it, I usually have all of the hero/hench cast all of their enchants on me before I engage (important enchants first); the Incubi usually end up removing the less important enchants and by constantly recasting Spirit Bond (which they constantly remove) and bringing the hero/hench into the fight I am usually victorious.

3. Dazed can be removed by the smite monk's purge signet. You usually have time to do this - the amount of time is the amount of time remaining on Shield of Absorption affecting you. Even if dazed isn't removed (or removed and re-inflicted), simply stop casting shield of absorption (1 sec cast which becomes a 2 sec cast). A good 600 tank can survive with strictly prot spirit and spirit bond (1/2 a second cast after being dazed) when fighting moderate-sized groups and when matra of resolve is up. Note that your energy management should be superb, you gain 2 points of energy every time you are hit and you have 3 pips of energy regeneration due to Succor so there should be no problem with the occasional energy reduction due to mantra of resolve and interrupts.

4. When you die, either use the smiter's rebirth or wipe your entire team and rez at the nearest shrine (this is sometimes faster). DP is quickly removed off of you by the XP gained from kills (you gain it all) and the hero DP is less important as they usually stay away and only finish off leftovers in some fights. Note that at missions where you don't rez at rez shrines, you must use rebirth; think of this beforehand and pull the enemies back a bit so that if you die, you will have some space (after the enemies return to their original location) to rez. In these places it might be a good idea to take a second and even third rebirth on the other heroes.

5. If you know you are going up against an exceptionally strong boss monk it may be wise to exchange the ranger elite from famine to Broad Head Arrow. The dazed boss monk is usually easy to kill. A better way (but requires skill) calls for grouping a big melee group next to the monk, SV/AV will drain him from energy and induce Famine damage each time you are hit in melee, and EoE will probably kill the monk along with the rest of the group. In other cases, it is usually enough to bring in your heroes/henches to finish off remainders of any group.

6. Stances are removed by physical attacks, and physicall enemies are the ones that die the fastest vs. this build. In this case simply make sure all skills are up before engaging, the enemies usually die before you need to recast enchantments, and if not, use matra of resolve prior to casting Shield of Absorption since it is your longest cast spell which makes it the easiest to interrupt. If SoA is interrupted nonetheless, use spirit bond constantly, you can maintain it indefinitely against moderate-sized groups and it's short cast time makes it hard to interrupt.

jonnieboi05 · Mar 14, 2008, 06:14 AM // 06:14

interesting. these builds remind me of a simple farming build with minor alterations, imo.

Jestar · Mar 14, 2008, 08:37 AM // 08:37

A 600 Monk build isn't a build that requires "little work" imo.

Antithesis · Mar 14, 2008, 11:42 PM // 23:42

Looks like fun. 2 x Monk bonders / 1 Ranger is not uncommon for farming, but i wouldn't use it for general PvE. Not saying it's a bad build by any stretch - i would play it as i like experimenting with bonding teams, but only when i want to be mentally engaged.

There's a lot of micro / setup and you need to know where any popups / patrols will appear, therefore agro control is very important. This would slow down Vanquishing too much for me to be worthwhile, but would be hell fun for farming and dungeons.

When i use a setup like this, i've always kept my Heroes out of my agro bubble, which defeats the purpose of 2 or 3 skills on all bars. I've found if i lose agro i might as well resign - they're very fragile builds, heroes are as good as dead if they're targetted, so they should stay well out of combat.

A few things need to be kept in mind when running a team like this -

How do the heroes handle themselves when something comes into agro range?
How does the AI respond?
Do you flag behind your bubble, then move them forward to the back edge once you've established agro?
If not, are you having to micro every Visage / Interrupt / Signet / Enchant (non-bonds) / Weapon Spell on their bars?

That's a lot to keep track of and would probably put you at risk of missing a Spirit Bond or Spellbreaker cast - i'd probably just take Symbiosis, micro Spellbreaker / Visages and let the smite bonds do the work. Symbiosis is a double-edge sword - it'll make this build extremely easy to run, as long as the nature ritual is well out of combat. If it gets taken down or you forget to recast, you're dead if you've already taken a lot of damage. I like Symbiosis, others don't. Your build works fine without it.

Your bars make sense, but there's a few questionable skill selections.

Not sure why Essence Bond is on you and the Prot Hero (they don't stack), Mending / Watchful Spirit is an option for the slot. Relying on a hero to run in to cast Aura of Stability could be problematic mid-battle, making room for both.

Signet of Judgment, Bane Signet, Distracting Shot and Savage Shot are all a bit pointless if they're out of agro. Dump Marksmanship points, you're not using them.

Stick Dwayna's Kiss on a Hero bar for a mega-heal if you can find the atts to spare. I'd drop Vital Weapon, it's of little use.

Drop SoA for the other Visage or Dwarven Stability on your bar. Not much point using SoA when you have 800+ HP, PS and SB.

Drop Essence Bond if your Prot hero's taking it, making room for both the Visage and Dwarven Stability on your bar.

Drakken Breathes Fire · Mar 14, 2008, 11:56 PM // 23:56

I'd change your first bar slightly. You can easily get 12 prot 10 divine favour 6 inspiration and 6 illusion with no wasted attribute points and at no cost to your build. (base attributes before runes.)

Personal preference on my part. I don't like having extra points. It really changes nothing in the mechanics of the build, just a redistribution of points.

MercenaryKnight · Mar 15, 2008, 01:13 AM // 01:13

I have been wondering about this except. Not for heroes, it seems like if the mo/mes 600 tank used a sympathetic visage that famine would definitely speed up all killing just about anywhere people use the 600 to farm.

Lucia · Mar 15, 2008, 08:05 AM // 08:05

Guys,

I think you are a bit fast to judge.

I wouldn't post a build here that I wasn't quite sure of. I've had hundreds (if not thousands) of hours of experience with it. I humbly claim that every skill in this build has been thought about and I would be surprised if anyone would be able to come up with a better choice for any skill without trying the build out first.

I'll try to address your questions specifically:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

There's a lot of micro / setup and you need to know where any popups / patrols will appear, therefore agro control is very important. This would slow down Vanquishing too much for me to be worthwhile, but would be hell fun for farming and dungeons.

Actually, from my experience (which includes vanquishing 95% of the areas out there with this build) it's faster than most full human teams and definitely faster than any 1-man team I know of. You don't need to know where pop ups are as you are always 1.5 agro bubbles ahead of the heroes and it's easy to prot spirit and spirit bond yourself when something pops up which gives you time thereafter to use other skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

When i use a setup like this, i've always kept my Heroes out of my agro bubble, which defeats the purpose of 2 or 3 skills on all bars. I've found if i lose agro i might as well resign - they're very fragile builds, heroes are as good as dead if they're targetted, so they should stay well out of combat. How do the heroes handle themselves when something comes into agro range?

remember that you have 15AL, this generally causes all aggro to settle on you and stay on you.If the heroes agro, simply flag the heroes back, the mob then re-settles on you. Bear in mind, that along with the 3 heroes I take 2 monks and 2 rangers which is definitely enough to kill and heal leftovers or at least survive if stuff pops up on top of them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

How does the AI respond?
Do you flag behind your bubble, then move them forward to the back edge once you've established agro?
If not, are you having to micro every Visage / Interrupt / Signet / Enchant (non-bonds) / Weapon Spell on their bars?

Note that the heroes are always 1.5 agro bubbles behind me so nearly never does something pop up on the heroes.
I sometimes micro SV/AV but leave the interrupts/signets to the ranger, and I generally micro only what I have written in my post, all the rest is up to the heroes which do a good job.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

Not sure why Essence Bond is on you and the Prot Hero (they don't stack), Mending / Watchful Spirit is an option for the slot.

Essence bond most certainly does stack; my bond gives me energy when I am hit, and the prot's bond gives him energy when I get hit. It is true that you can only see 1 bond on yourself but it still affects both casters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

Relying on a hero to run in to cast Aura of Stability could be problematic mid-battle, making room for both.

I wrote in my post that I micro Aura of Stability

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

Signet of Judgment, Bane Signet, Distracting Shot and Savage Shot are all a bit pointless if they're out of agro. Dump Marksmanship points, you're not using them.

The h/h are not always out of agro, I bring them in to finish stuff off or to kill monks who deal less damage (and therefore take less damage) and heal. For this, the hero skills work quite well, especially the interrupts which prevent a monk enemy from healing himself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

Stick Dwayna's Kiss on a Hero bar for a mega-heal if you can find the atts to spare.

Healing from heroes is futile, if you aren't covered by prot spirit and spirit bond or Shield of Absorption, you will die in about 1 second which isn't enough time for a hero heal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

I'd drop Vital Weapon, it's of little use.

Vital weapon is of great use here, it raises your health which induces higher smiting damage! remember that you need about 800 health for smiting damage to be maxed since 53 damage (max holy wrath damage) is about 66% of 80 (which is 10% of 800, which is the damage you'll take due to prot spirit)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

Drop SoA for the other Visage or Dwarven Stability on your bar. Not much point using SoA when you have 800+ HP, PS and SB.

SoA is critical, it allows you to deal with large mobs. Recall that Spirit Bond ends when you are hit 10 times, which happens after about a second when fighting large mobs. The main reason Spirit Bond is there is to give me time to cast Shield of Absorption. Maybe this is why you think the build is slow, it would indeed be slower to take out 3-4 enemies at a time (which is about what you can do without SoA), with SoA you can take out 10+ at a time, which also boosts the effect of Famine and EoE.

Antithesis · Mar 15, 2008, 10:03 AM // 10:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucia

Guys, I think you are a bit fast to judge.

I'm not saying it's a bad build at all, it's very good, but there's some stuff in there that's of questionable value for PvE Vanquishing. All i'm doing is suggesting a few other options, not tearing the build to pieces.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucia

Note that the heroes are always 1.5 agro bubbles behind me so nearly never does something pop up on the heroes.
--snip--
The h/h are not always out of agro, I bring them in to finish stuff off or to kill monks who deal less damage (and therefore take less damage) and heal.

Herein lies the problem...which one is it? Are they or are they not in agro? How do you control it, are you always having to flag your heroes behind while you scrape for popups or monitor patrols? What happens when H/H do attract agro? Do you run them and hope for the best against speed-boosted foes? Should you dedicate 5 skills and take 4 Henchies just to knock over stragglers?

I've done a lot of this stuff myself so I know how the 600 and heroes work. The fundamental difference is I ran Symbiosis, didn't run a full party and was always the only one in agro. The suggestions / questions i've put forth are based on using Symbiosis, always keeping the H/H at a safe distance (except while running between mobs in which case you need to know the popups) and reducing the amount of micro in this build. Sorry for making that clear as mud, but they are viable alternatives and can free up a few skill slots.

I didn't run the Visages / Famine and Spellbreaker, so your build is definitely more damaging and safer than my own if micro'd correctly. Mine had far less micro and a greater buffer for error, but was more susceptible if Symbiosis wasn't managed, so your's is an overall improvement. But as you pointed out you're not reinventing the wheel, Smites + Visages / Famine + Spellbreaker has been done before with far fewer skills. You've fleshed it out by adding another hero + more skills to this basic framework, so there is less tweaking required. But the way they've been fleshed out is up for debate, which is why you've posted the build isn't it?

If you take a full party of 8 then i still don't see how this is better than running Sabway because it's PvE on autopilot for the masses. This build is fragile and a lot of work in comparison - you're dazed, you're dead...heroes get agro, you're dead...enchants removed, you're dead...miscast, you're dead...miss a micro, you're dead...stance removal, you're dead...you die, they're dead weight. You need to learn what threat you're going to face in each mob, where you'll face them, where the popups are and where to safely park your heroes, so it is definitely slower for Vanquishing than alternative builds with these factors in mind. You can happily plough your way through all of Vanquishing with Sabway and not have to worry about this stuff.

My bad re: Essence Bond, I didn't read the purpose of having EB on the Hero. I still don't see that it's needed with Blessed Signet on the bar.
I get that Aura of Stability is micro'd, I don't like the recharge nor the time it takes for them to run in and cast - it leaves a gap of a few seconds where you can be KD but it is a good choice.
I can see why you're using SoA - i ran Symbiosis and tanked 15+ at a time, so SoA was not needed. I'd take SoA if not using Symbiosis.
Vital Weapon is meh...you're already hitting 800 with Survivor insignia.
Dwayna's Kiss is useful as a 100% heal during or after battle with Symbiosis. You should always be covered by PS+SB or SoA, that was never in question.
Taking 5 skills + 4 Henchies just to take down the odd healer here and there seems overkill when Backfire or Diversion will do the same job.

Your build is really solid, but it's just a tweaked version of Witte's with an extra Hero to slot in his variations, plus some added fluff. I do like it a lot because bonder builds are fun and challenging both to run and to create, but i don't think i'd run it in it's current format. I don't 100% agree on the hero setups - if they're meant to be out of agro there are better skill selections than Distracting / Savage etc and i won't take 5 skills for stragglers when there are better options like Frozen Soil, Quickening Zephry and Symbiosis on offer. I will try it but not with Henchies - they shouldn't be needed so i'd rather the increase in drops / gold.

I can't see this in wide use except for those who like to micro, I'll personally love it in dungeons

If you're right it can be used for Vanquishing most if not all areas with some trial and error. But based on the simple facts that this build does require a lot of effort to run, is fragile, is primary class dependent, carries 4 unnecessary Henchies and is not PvE autopilot, i don't think it's an exceptional build (blow some more smoke up your own arse) - it's good in the right hands, but too risky, too intimidating and too much work for most people to bother when they could spec as Smite or LoD and run Sabway. Then again, you could argue if you take Monk as your primary then you're up for the challenge

That's my $.02 - don't like it, ignore it, I would. Just trying to contribute to the debate.
Great build. Worth trying. Thanks for posting

Lucia · Mar 15, 2008, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

Herein lies the problem...which one is it? Are they or are they not in agro? How do you control it, are you always having to flag your heroes behind while you scrape for popups or monitor patrols? What happens when H/H do attract agro? Do you run them and hope for the best against speed-boosted foes? Should you dedicate 5 skills and take 4 Henchies just to knock over stragglers?

I leave the heroes behind me before fights, always. Since they are always 1.5 agro bubbles behind me, I always pop things up. During the fights, I either kill the whole mob or not, if I do, I continue, if not, I bring in the heroes to help me finish off leftovers, this is important, as with some leftovers, such as monks I could be at a stalemate without heroes.

If for some reason the heroes are overwhelmed, I flag them back, the agro usually settles on me due to the low armor. Rarely do the heroes die, (I'd estimate once or twice in a vanquish) then I sac myself and we all rez in a shrine, no big deal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

I've done a lot of this stuff myself so I know how the 600 and heroes work. The fundamental difference is I ran Symbiosis

I'm sure you are mistaken, maybe you mean Quickening Zephyr? Symbiosis will raise your health way too much to say 1500 or more health, this means that even with protective spirit on you you are still taking 150 damage each hit, which is more than spirit bond can heal you for.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

If you take a full party of 8 then i still don't see how this is better than Sabway or Racthoh's Paragons, because they're both PvE on autopilot. This build is fragile and a lot of work in comparison - you're dazed, you're dead...heroes get agro, you're dead...enchants removed, you're dead...miscast, you're dead...miss a micro, you're dead...stance removal, you're dead...you die, they're dead weight. You need to learn what threat you're going to face in each mob, where you'll face them, where the popups are and where to safely park your heroes, so it is definitely slower for Vanquishing than alternative builds with these factors in mind. You can happily plough your way through all of Vanquishing with Sabway and not have to worry about this stuff.

I think we agree that my build is certainly not auto pilot. I'm interested in checking whether it is faster than the auto pilot builds you mention. I believe it is, and if it isn't then indeed there is no need for all the micro management when there are auto pilot builds that can do a better job.

So there, I've dropped the gauntlet, anyone care to pick it up and compare the efficiency of one of the above builds vs. mine?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

That's my $.02 - don't like it, ignore it, I would. Just trying to contribute to the debate.
Great build. Worth trying. Thanks for posting

I appreciate and thank you for your posts.

Antithesis · Mar 15, 2008, 03:51 PM // 15:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucia

I'm sure you are mistaken, maybe you mean Quickening Zephyr?

No I mean Symbiosis. I should expand by saying i ran Life Barrier and not Spellbreaker on a Prot hero, making the damage vs heal very manageable with just Spirit Bond and 2500+HP. Toss in Aura of Faith and you're on a cakewalk. I still did max Smite damage in both cases. Protective Spirit i kept in case i agro'd outside Symbiosis. I reckon Spellbreaker + Visages + QZ + Symbiosis + Life Barrier + Famine + Aura of Faith would own and cut a fair few skills from the build. I've been meaning to get my Monk to GW:EN to try this out in the HM dungeons, this may be the kick up the bum i need to drag him out of storage.

I scrubbed the Racthoh reference because to run it most effectively, you need a W primary or secondary, a P/W is the standout performer. That makes it more class dependent than Sabway, so less accessible. And that's really the crux - this build takes skill and zone / mob knowledge to run. If run properly it's great and it's quick (I love Smite / Famine carnage), if run poorly (read 95% of the player base) it'll bomb bigtime and take awhile to do the job. I still think it can be improved or at the very least challenged rather than accepted verbatim. Sabway's great, Racthoh's is great, but i don't use all of their skills either.

PS Just being cheeky re: smoke comment, i'm a bit funny about the word 'exceptional'

There are very few exceptional builders around here, i could name 5 maybe 10 at the most. I'm definitely NOT one of them but i do pay attention to those who are.