Curse

joshuarodger · Sep 05, 2008, 03:56 AM // 03:56

if the fight is going badly enough that people start dying, you stopping for at least 4 seconds isn't going to help anyone out. monks are supposed to keep people alive, not bring them back to life.

Avarre · Sep 05, 2008, 04:15 AM // 04:15

Put res on the midliners, maybe on the frontliners. Not on the monks. Monks need to be keeping people up, and in a situation where people die, then you should be paying extra attention, not ressing.

If you have one in all of those locations, and then, despite all the advice against it, you have one on the monks as well, that's about seven res skills in one party. There is no reason you should be dying that much, and if you don't die that much, they're wasted slots.

When you compare usual bar compression, monks are usually one of the worst places to stick res skills just because they should already be carrying a wide range of skills which cramps the bar. Midline classes as well as some frontline builds by comparison can afford a slot much easier.

Lykan · Sep 05, 2008, 04:50 AM // 04:50

If someone on your team drops it usually means the monks are under pressure (in pve anyway) and the last thing you need is for them to stop healing and cast a 6 second res, it will most likely result in team wipe.

There's no need for pug monks to take res when its so easy for any one else in the team to go /mo /rt /p and bring hard res. And sigs ppl sigs.
If the monks do have a spare slot for a res then don't be screaming at them to use it while theres still enemies in range. Wait til everything has calmed down.

Turbobusa · Sep 05, 2008, 08:01 AM // 08:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Lotus-

fail.

only terrible monks use HB. period.

Fail yourself, I don't use HB. I just report what I see being ran most of the time.
Be a jerk somewhere else.

JDRyder · Sep 05, 2008, 10:36 AM // 10:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Lotus-

fail.

only terrible monks use HB. period.

i didnt know empathic healer was terrible D:

the_jos · Sep 05, 2008, 04:11 PM // 16:11

Oh no, the 'to res or not to res' question again.

In general, I don't equip a res on my monk.
But in PUG situations I understand why players ask for it.
And as long as it's PUG or the res fits in my build (like an experimental smiter build I want to use in a full-monk team) I can live with taking the res.

I've seen so many PUG situations where I was easily able to rebirth someone from the battlefield while the rest of the party was not dying that I really don't care about efficiency anymore.
Most of the time it's just overextending or rushing, not pressure.
Many PUG groups take way too much defense and only fail because of bad coordination. Only in more aggressive groups or specific areas I would miss my regular builds.

From my perspective as party organizer the res should not be on the monk.
Period. But I never organise PUG and most of the time just tag along with guild, alliance or PUG. And then it's their choice, not mine.

glacialphoenix · Sep 05, 2008, 06:38 PM // 18:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lykan

If someone on your team drops it usually means the monks are under pressure (in pve anyway)

Actually, in PUGs, more frequently it's due to impatience or overextending, like the_jos said. At least, in my experience. And usually, the front/midliners die, and the monks are the last ones standing, which is why it may actually make sense to pack Rebirth if you're monking for a PUG, especially if there's no rezshrine and some nutcase decides to draw too much aggro. If you have people you trust, then you can afford not to bring it.

Dean Harper · Sep 05, 2008, 10:26 PM // 22:26

Lol, i love how this is turning into a debate now... Cool off guys, all i wanted was an answer and i got it.

Age · Sep 05, 2008, 11:10 PM // 23:10

I was wondering if this for carring res for Monk or Mesmer?

DarkGanni · Sep 06, 2008, 12:39 AM // 00:39

Personally in PvE I prefer to always take a ress, In pvp I don't unless its a team build where I'm required to take one.

Michael805 · Sep 06, 2008, 02:57 AM // 02:57

Run healers boon and res chant with a 40/40 set. I've gotton less than a 2 second cast on it a few times. And, as long as you're other monk(s) isn't a complete idiot, they'll be able to handle the situation for a few seconds.

Age · Sep 06, 2008, 10:09 AM // 10:09

^I wouldn't do that even with res chant don't know who you are going to be ressing if it is melee leave the alone.It is best to use rebirth on Monks to be out of harms way.

JDRyder · Sep 06, 2008, 10:59 AM // 10:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael805

Run healers boon and res chant with a 40/40 set. I've gotton less than a 2 second cast on it a few times. And, as long as you're other monk(s) isn't a complete idiot, they'll be able to handle the situation for a few seconds.

or you can take a skill that may have kept that person from dying and let the mid-line rez in combat.

-Lotus- · Sep 06, 2008, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael805

Run healers boon and res chant with a 40/40 set. I've gotton less than a 2 second cast on it a few times. And, as long as you're other monk(s) isn't a complete idiot, they'll be able to handle the situation for a few seconds.

Or you could just run a hybrid so you could have put prot on them and they wouldnt have died in the first place.

Tyla · Sep 06, 2008, 03:56 PM // 15:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael805

Run healers boon and res chant with a 40/40 set. I've gotton less than a 2 second cast on it a few times. And, as long as you're other monk(s) isn't a complete idiot, they'll be able to handle the situation for a few seconds.

People who really need to powerheal through everything are often those who lack the ability to use prot before the damage takes place.

... Which is why WoH Hybrid > HB because popping up a SoA and using WoH when necesary would save alot more energy than hitting Orison of Healing every 2 seconds.

Michael805 · Sep 06, 2008, 05:55 PM // 17:55

OR you can all stop thinking I'm the worst monk in the game like so many people auto-assume over forums, and figure out that there are circumstances where people will probably die and ressing them can actually prevent a whipe rather than cause one.

Usually when this happens it is a result of someone aggroing too far ahead of everyone, and we can't get to him in time to use something on them, then the other warrior or whatever pushes up, hold the aggro, and once he's seeded I sit there for several seconds doing nothing anyway, so there is no reason not to res as long as you're front isn't stupid and can hold aggro.
Or, if a seed is shattered, an they're taking enough damage for it to be fatal between the time it is shattered and the time we can heal him.
These are two instances where resing a warrior can be fine, or even good to do in case one loses aggro of something.

Like I said though, don't do it if you're other monk is bad, and you also have to pay attention to what you're doing.
Res chant, death pact, and maybe flesh are the only hard reses anyone should have in PvE. Rebirth is shit. If you really need that, then there is a problem anyway.

By the way, for the ones crying "hybrid." I don't PvE much, an when I do it is with people that use cons a lot. So, prot spirit is basically useless with a thousand armor tanks, and if you really need to use prot spirit on a caster, they need to kite better. SoA is about the only prot that I could deem viable in HM PvE with cons, but it does the same basic thing as seed in the end without the nifty area/party heal that the seeds deliver. You must remember that this is PvE, it's not PvP where hybrids are countless times better... Except HA, where people still seem to think that HB > WoH for some reason.

tl;dr, use reses in combat if you're not an idiot, and stop crying for prot.

Tyla · Sep 06, 2008, 07:00 PM // 19:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael805

OR you can all stop thinking I'm the worst monk in the game like so many people auto-assume over forums, and figure out that there are circumstances where people will probably die and ressing them can actually prevent a whipe rather than cause one.

Where did I say this? When did anyone say this?

I think you're the one taking it the wrong way.

Quote:

Usually when this happens it is a result of someone aggroing too far ahead of everyone, and we can't get to him in time to use something on them, then the other warrior or whatever pushes up, hold the aggro, and once he's seeded I sit there for several seconds doing nothing anyway, so there is no reason not to res as long as you're front isn't stupid and can hold aggro.

Anything can hold aggro unless you're not utilising prot. SoA + PSpirit makes the targetted ally invincible to most forms of damage for roughly 7 seconds.

Quote:

Like I said though, don't do it if you're other monk is bad, and you also have to pay attention to what you're doing.
Res chant, death pact, and maybe flesh are the only hard reses anyone should have in PvE. Rebirth is shit. If you really need that, then there is a problem anyway.

If your other Monk is that bad, I'd be out of the group. I'd rather do my part, keeping people alive than ressing mid-battle. The only time I'd spend 2 seconds out of my job as a Monk it'd be when I'm casting Aegis.

Quote:

By the way, for the ones crying "hybrid." I don't PvE much, an when I do it is with people that use cons a lot. So, prot spirit is basically useless with a thousand armor tanks, and if you really need to use prot spirit on a caster, they need to kite better. SoA is about the only prot that I could deem viable in HM PvE with cons, but it does the same basic thing as seed in the end without the nifty area/party heal that the seeds deliver. You must remember that this is PvE, it's not PvP where hybrids are countless times better... Except HA, where people still seem to think that HB > WoH for some reason.

Tanks are bad, when almost all enemies have 8% more speed boost than you the only way they're going to be able to get them away 100% of the time is when they're snared or the Monk has an additional speed boost. Prot Spirit helps anywhere in PvE, especially against those enemies which seem to hit over nine thousand at range. You can't kite some skills at all.

Quote:

tl;dr, use reses in combat if you're not an idiot, and stop crying for prot.

Protting saves more than healing, ressing in combat when you could have protted them to stop them dying in the first place would have stopped you standing there useless for X seconds and also gave you a skill slot that isn't useless outside of the "RES NOW" scenario.

By the way, SoA and the Seeds aren't the same. SoA reduces damage to 0 within a few hits, and the Seeds just heal when the enemy is hit.

Michael805 · Sep 06, 2008, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Where did I say this? When did anyone say this?

I think you're the one taking it the wrong way.

General assumptions seem to be that a monk that uses only healing and no prot = bad monk. Which I can't completely disagree with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Anything can hold aggro unless you're not utilising prot. SoA + PSpirit makes the targetted ally invincible to most forms of damage for roughly 7 seconds.

Cons + seeds makes for the same basic situation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

If your other Monk is that bad, I'd be out of the group. I'd rather do my part, keeping people alive than ressing mid-battle. The only time I'd spend 2 seconds out of my job as a Monk it'd be when I'm casting Aegis.

I usually get paired up with bad monks by groups I'm invited to by friends who usually have their alliance in the group. It would just be bad manners to do such a thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Tanks are bad, when almost all enemies have 8% more speed boost than you the only way they're going to be able to get them away 100% of the time is when they're snared or the Monk has an additional speed boost. Prot Spirit helps anywhere in PvE, especially against those enemies which seem to hit over nine thousand at range. You can't kite some skills at all.

Bad PvEers use tanks, I usually have friends asking me to join bad groups with them, so I get to monk for tanks.
Also: pre-kite with cons, and you'll get hit maybe once or twice before other things are dead, and you can proceed to kill that. As for rangers, strafe and win, or use walls.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Protting saves more than healing, ressing in combat when you could have protted them to stop them dying in the first place would have stopped you standing there useless for X seconds and also gave you a skill slot that isn't useless outside of the "RES NOW" scenario.

If you know how to use seeds, this point is moot. The only time something like prot spirit or SoA would save them is the same scenario that it would get them killed. For example: being shattered.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

By the way, SoA and the Seeds aren't the same. SoA reduces damage to 0 within a few hits, and the Seeds just heal when the enemy is hit.

They do the same thing in theory that once someone takes damage, something happens. With seed, it heals, with SoA, it reduces.

Rhamia Darigaz · Sep 06, 2008, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by gremlin

Should a Monk bring a res ? well in gw and in pve yes.
Also for general pugging where mistakes are likely other players should have some backup res skills.
Do a 2 hour mission or dungeon and screw up once or even twice you have a chance of recovery if the surviving players have res skills.

Not for any logical reason but for reasons of history and the fact that most similar games put labels on characters, and the monk label is to heal and resurrect the fallen.

Just as all rangers interrupt and all warriors are paladin style wammos etc etc.
There is little or no room for diversion from the norm in the minds of many players.
This is often because gw has become fine tuned build wise and its a fact that some classes are perfect for their role and trying anything different or dare I say it Fun is seen as an abberation.

Want to play a non ressing Monk then play an Ele/Monk take a few aoe fire spells to keep the pug happy then all your fave monk skills.
You have loads of energy spare and no one blames you when it all hits the fan.

pretty bad advice overall.
only point i'll agree with you on is that rangers interrupt.
monks should bring res? no
all warriors are wammos? no
non-resing monks should go e/mo and run fire aoe spells with monk heals? no

Tyla · Sep 06, 2008, 07:52 PM // 19:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael805

Cons + seeds makes for the same basic situation.

Except PSpirit & SoA will be able to hold the aggro of almost everything.

Quote:

I usually get paired up with bad monks by groups I'm invited to by friends who usually have their alliance in the group. It would just be bad manners to do such a thing.

I usually don't play with PuGs, and alot of my friends are the same.

Quote:

Bad PvEers use tanks, I usually have friends asking me to join bad groups with them, so I get to monk for tanks.
Also: pre-kite with cons, and you'll get hit maybe once or twice before other things are dead, and you can proceed to kill that. As for rangers, strafe and win, or use walls.

This includes pre-kiting. And when I said "damage from range", I ment that nasty overbuffed Ele damage.

Quote:

If you know how to use seeds, this point is moot. The only time something like prot spirit or SoA would save them is the same scenario that it would get them killed. For example: being shattered.

Okay.

SoA has a reacharge of 10 and PSpirit has a recharge of 5. The cast time is minimal at best and it will prevent almost all damage target party member will take. It can also be maintained by chance or 70% of the time.

Both the seeds have a recharge of 25 with one having a cast time of 2, which is quite large. Now, comparing the two you'll see SoA and PSpirit being the winner.

Why? PSpirit negates most of the damage anyway, as a large prot should do. When you've got enemies autoattacking for 100's at the start, PSpirit will turn 100's into 60's. The seeds will only turn it to an 80, and they aren't nearly as long as PSpirit. PSpirit will reduce all damage except life stealing to 60, but the seed will only heal a bit of the damage.

Taking SoA into account, you'll only be taking a damage of 0 after roughly 12 hits which basically means you won't need to spend any energy at all for the time it is active.

Quote:

They do the same thing in theory that once someone takes damage, something happens. With seed, it heals, with SoA, it reduces.

With SoA at 0 damage per hit, compare 7 seconds to 5-6 seconds, and 10 recharge to 25 recharge. I think we have a winner.

Infact, comparing the two skils is quite stupid because they don't even have the same function. Healing =/= reducing.