Curse

Ccat · Sep 02, 2009, 09:45 PM // 21:45

A few weeks ago I made an Attuned Was Songkai Protter that could constantly spam prots with no reprocussions, and one of the first comments was that the build healed for nothing if requirements weren't met, and Monks had a Divine Favor health bonus to keep them going. So I tried stuff out and here was what I came up with -

Glyph of Renewal

Divine Spirit

Selfless Spirit

Any random, low recharging Prot

So, you see that 10 energy spells now only take 2 energy to cast, and the energy is virtually regenerated by the time the aftercast delay has worn off. I tried adding Divine Boon, with less success but more health. The dirt common protection skills had become Elite skills - RoF now heals for 100, negates a hit and gives life back. Shield Guardian heals for 100 per second whilst providing some blocking and giving a decent AoE heal.

Again like with the last build I am terrible at prioritising things, knowing what to put in and what not to, etc. I could use some advice and opinions on how good the build is. What do you guys think?

Thanks.

zelgadissan · Sep 02, 2009, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Isn't the point of prots so you don't have to spam in the first place....?

Ccat · Sep 02, 2009, 10:16 PM // 22:16

Yes and no. Prots like RoF scream spam me, having short sweet effects and tiny recharges. To be honest the number of skills you're describing outnumber what I'm talking about.

Racthoh · Sep 02, 2009, 10:20 PM // 22:20

Glyph of Renewal with Divine Spirit used to be one of the variations for Boon Prots, however Offering of Blood, Energy Drain, and even Mantra of Recall were superior options since they only consumed a single skill slot among other things. Nowadays I'd consider Assassin's Promise with Divine Spirit to be stronger then Glyph of Renewal.

If you're just mashing 5 energy prots then Selfless Spirit will do a good enough job. If you want to mash 10 energy prots, Ether Renewal eles will do the job much better. If the mashing style doesn't suit you then Glyph of Lesser Energy will power Protective Spirit and Aegis quite well.

Axel Zinfandel · Sep 02, 2009, 11:52 PM // 23:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

Glyph of Renewal with Divine Spirit used to be one of the variations for Boon Prots, however Offering of Blood, Energy Drain, and even Mantra of Recall were superior options since they only consumed a single skill slot among other things. Nowadays I'd consider Assassin's Promise with Divine Spirit to be stronger then Glyph of Renewal.

If you're just mashing 5 energy prots then Selfless Spirit will do a good enough job. If you want to mash 10 energy prots, Ether Renewal eles will do the job much better. If the mashing style doesn't suit you then Glyph of Lesser Energy will power Protective Spirit and Aegis quite well.

Assassin's Promise brings the added job of having to watch an enemy's health bar, which may not appeal to some people who can't multitask well.

Frankly, spamming prots is pretty boring, and not that much more effective them being smart about placing prots.

The two prots people tend to spam is Spirit Bond and Protective Spirit. People spam them as if the more they spam them, the more they will prot or heal, which in reality, it is doing nothing but increasing your chances of a character being protected.

I'd be more interesting in putting Air of Superiority, Divine Spirit, and Selfless Spirit in there along with some other elite. ZB maybe, for the heal. You could even gain energy with both those up :x

maxxfury · Sep 03, 2009, 01:44 AM // 01:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

Frankly, spamming prots is pretty boring, and not that much more effective them being smart about placing prots.

^ that, in general!

Sadly, AoS is too unreliable to recharge Div spirit imo.

and as Rachtoh said, the ER infoozer does THIS job better than a monk can.

Best bar that can keep up with it as a monk imo is :
http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:Mo/A_AP_BoonProt with Divispirit.

hell u can put spirit bond on as well as PS and still abuse the hell out of them with very little drain on your bluebar so long as your awake and can get ap to proc. the almost perma seed of life is crazy good.

Rhamia Darigaz · Sep 03, 2009, 03:06 AM // 03:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by zelgadissan

Isn't the point of prots so you don't have to spam in the first place....?

no. the point of prots is to reduce damage taken. if you can afford to spam them, at least in pve where mobs don't interrupt predictively, there's no reason not to do so.

Burst Cancel · Sep 03, 2009, 03:57 AM // 03:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhamia Darigaz

if you can afford to spam them, at least in pve where mobs don't interrupt predictively, there's no reason not to do so.

Well, the downside here is using three slots and your elite just for emgt. There is absolutely no point in building a bar to spam prots, when Selfless on its own can power a boonprot without issues.

maxxfury · Sep 03, 2009, 04:44 PM // 16:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

Well, the downside here is using three slots and your elite just for emgt.

that pretty much describes an ER infoozer too

Just a sidenote.

tbh the most powerfull prot spells ARENT the elites imo, but prot spirit, spirit bond, aegis and shield of absorb. (for pve at least) so using the elite for eman ect isnt so bad here.

personally tho i much prefere the boon prot style of play over the Er infoozer style of heavy spam.

Burst Cancel · Sep 03, 2009, 07:41 PM // 19:41

Except that spamming prots is not anywhere close to the strength of an ER Infuser; the two are not even remotely comparable. Furthermore, of the prots you listed, Aegis and SoA can't be spammed, and PS/SB don't benefit significantly from spamming.

I don't really see how this topic is even worth serious discussion. There is negligible increased utility in spamming prots when compared to targetted prots; the main difference is that the latter requires the player to not suck.

paranon · Sep 03, 2009, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ccat

Glyph of Renewal

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

Of the prots you listed, Aegis and SoA can't be spammed.

I beg to differ, however i agree with the general post, having a slot dedicated to spamming prots is unnecessary. there is only so much prots can do before you need a healer.

of course the real test is:
with sensible pulling and defense, 2 woh hybrids have no problems keeping an 8man team alive in most hard mode areas.

if you had one monk running your suggested build, would a dedicated UA or HB* healer be able to keep the team alive with no other heal/prot support?

*Yes, i know HB is bad, but 9 times out of 10 when you join a pug the other monk is HB, and that automatically makes it a factor in any build discussion.

Burst Cancel · Sep 03, 2009, 09:20 PM // 21:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by paranon

I beg to differ

He's using Glyph of Renewal on Divine Spirit, which only lasts 12+2 @13. Furthermore, one cast every 10s isn't my idea of "spammable".

maxxfury · Sep 03, 2009, 10:30 PM // 22:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

Except that spamming prots is not anywhere close to the strength of an ER Infuser; the two are not even remotely comparable. Furthermore, of the prots you listed, Aegis and SoA can't be spammed, and PS/SB don't benefit significantly from spamming.

I don't really see how this topic is even worth serious discussion. There is negligible increased utility in spamming prots when compared to targetted prots; the main difference is that the latter requires the player to not suck.

Aegis and soa are pretty frequently recharged unless you fail hard with Ap an the ap boon bar. A reasonable target would be every other kill? maybe 1 in 3 to get ap to proc on. so depending how fast you can kill, the better these bars work.

But no...not on the level of the ERinfoozer!

for pure broken skill less spam ability!! i was just comparing the style of the OP's bar with the Infoozer ^

and honestly? no i dont think its worth the time to run dual spirits to power 10e prots.. over what you can do with a divine spirit + ap bar, or a standard bar with selfless.

Burst Cancel · Sep 03, 2009, 10:47 PM // 22:47

AP is not the topic of discussion. OP's build revolves around the idea of reducing spell costs enough so that prots can be spammed; my argument is that it's not worthwhile to do so.

maxxfury · Sep 03, 2009, 11:09 PM // 23:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

AP is not the topic of discussion. OP's build revolves around the idea of reducing spell costs enough so that prots can be spammed; my argument is that it's not worthwhile to do so.

is only 2 ways to do that as a monk....GoR or Ap to power div spirit and keep selfless up on its own.

and Ap gives a lot more benefits to do that...that was my point.

But i feel the same, not worthwhile (with the effort and time needed) bringing the costs down THAT far on a monk.

/agrees ^

Ccat · Sep 03, 2009, 11:15 PM // 23:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

AP is not the topic of discussion. OP's build revolves around the idea of reducing spell costs enough so that prots can be spammed; my argument is that it's not worthwhile to do so.

Sure, it can be about that too. I originally wanted advice and now I see that GoR is not worthwhile. Concerning Assassin's Promise, I thought I could never handle something that requires the hero-esque ability to go through foes and allies back and forth, but it's easier than I imagined.

You say that prots aren't worth spamming and that it's better to use them with accuracy and efficiency, but the two do conflict at times. Say there's a powerful ele nuker, or multiple nukers. The balled 4 or so physicals in my party constantly being healed by Shield Guardian every second has a huge effect on the fight. A theory it may be, but my moral is that using things effectively can too mean spamming, though the term is clearly frowned on.

Thus I want a build that can effectively spam a prot like this that doesn't fall dead at the sight of 4 monks or so. I'm going to try using using "Victory is Mine!" next at 6 Tactics with 8 or so conditions equipped on the heroes. It probably can't keep up with the raw bulk of Energy that Shield Guardian demands, but meh.

Quote:

Originally Posted by paranon

I beg to differ, however i agree with the general post, having a slot dedicated to spamming prots is unnecessary. there is only so much prots can do before you need a healer.

I don't think so. A booned RoF is probably not much worse than Word of Healing. Decreased recharge and activation times, doesn't take up an elite slot, Healing Prayers has no PS....and honestly do you need the extra 100 points of healing when RoF negates a hit and gives life back from it? To me, Healing Prayers is a totally useless line. Lots of sloppy activation times whilst being totally outmatched by Restoration Magic. What can be done with Healing Prayers can be done by Protection prayers without specing into other attributes. Sure Healing Prayers has Heal Party but is equally rivalled by Divine Healing and Heaven's Delight with a 40/40 set.

I digress, I'm absolutely terrible at keeping on topic.

Burst Cancel · Sep 04, 2009, 04:12 AM // 04:12

The problem in your hypothetical scenario is the fact that there are people balling up against nukers; the solution to that isn't spamming prots, it's to spread the **** out. In pretty much any situation where keeping prots on everyone is a good idea, you're better off playing a bonder.

RoF is not a replacement for WoH. And a boonprot is a healer; don't be fooled by the fact that it runs no skills from the Healing line.

Axel Zinfandel · Sep 04, 2009, 05:32 AM // 05:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

The problem in your hypothetical scenario is the fact that there are people balling up against nukers; the solution to that isn't spamming prots, it's to spread the **** out. In pretty much any situation where keeping prots on everyone is a good idea, you're better off playing a bonder.

RoF is not a replacement for WoH. And a boonprot is a healer; don't be fooled by the fact that it runs no skills from the Healing line.

Getting the hell out of AoE is much easier then protting the damage.

paranon · Sep 04, 2009, 09:40 AM // 09:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ccat

To me, Healing Prayers is a totally useless line. Lots of sloppy activation times whilst being totally outmatched by Restoration Magic.

Sorry, i think i missed that memo, since when has healing been totally outmatched by restoration?

And the thing about rof is that it has the potential to do much the same amount of healing/mitigation/whatever you wanna call it, as something like patient spirit, but patient spirit is just so much easier, you cast it on someone who is a bit low on health, they get a little DF boost, then in 2 seconds, you know that they will get a big heal that will take their health back up. with rof, at the very best you have to know that they are going to get hit in the next 8 seconds, so you have to be watching the enemy physical mobs all the time to make sure that someone is attacking the target you are protting, imo, thats just too much work for a spell that will at best do what patient spirit already does very well.

i'm sorry, but imo, aegis + patient spirit > rof.

Ccat · Sep 04, 2009, 11:39 AM // 11:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

The problem in your hypothetical scenario is the fact that there are people balling up against nukers; the solution to that isn't spamming prots, it's to spread the **** out. In pretty much any situation where keeping prots on everyone is a good idea, you're better off playing a bonder.

RoF is not a replacement for WoH. And a boonprot is a healer; don't be fooled by the fact that it runs no skills from the Healing line.

Good points. And while boonprot and every single prot in existence basically is a form of healing in someway it is still damage reduction too. But yeah, never really considered it healing.

But, why is RoF no replacement for WoH? Please elaborate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by paranon

Sorry, i think i missed that memo, since when has healing been totally outmatched by restoration?

Since Spirit Light rivalled WoH's healing power whilst forcing you to use a useful healing spirit/ meatshield. Since Dwayna's Kiss, Word of Healing, Heal Party and a few others are the only skills that have ever even been remotely good and used in metas, and since Healing Prayers has one condition removal in it since EoTN when Restoration has Mend Body and Soul, which has the power to remove every condition ever.[/QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by paranon

And the thing about rof is that it has the potential to do much the same amount of healing/mitigation/whatever you wanna call it, as something like patient spirit, but patient spirit is just so much easier, you cast it on someone who is a bit low on health, they get a little DF boost, then in 2 seconds, you know that they will get a big heal that will take their health back up. with rof, at the very best you have to know that they are going to get hit in the next 8 seconds, so you have to be watching the enemy physical mobs all the time to make sure that someone is attacking the target you are protting, imo, thats just too much work for a spell that will at best do what patient spirit already does very well.

When someone's really getting hammered with damage, Patient Spirit just won't do. It takes 2 seconds to activate and you know if someone was about to die you would want to slap Spirit Bond on them rather than a skill that takes 2.25 seconds to heal well.

Getting hit in the next 8 seconds? Please, that is not a hard circumstance to meet. If you're against 2 enemies then maybe it won't trigger but in that circumstance you won't even need the healing. If someone's health bar went down in the first place, chances are that whatever hit them are about to hit them again, even more likely with AoE enemies. The thing is, you can use this arguement against me, but I know that RoF triggers all the time, and if it didn't then the ally I casted it on wasn't being hit, thus he didn't need healing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by paranon

i'm sorry, but imo, aegis + patient spirit > rof.

imo Aegis + Patient Spirit < Aegis + RoF which doesn't split attributes. What you put there was kinda one sided.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

Getting the hell out of AoE is much easier then protting the damage.

You know how heroes are. If I'm running a Warrior team and call out my target they are going to ball. Rather than taking them out of the AoE (which involves drawing out the battle longer) I just endure the damage, especially since, against something like Temple Guardians, taking heroes out of an AoE will result in them casting another at the new location, resulting in them running about like Headless chickens which I'd rather not do. Also, saying 'just get out of the AoE' is very irresponsible of a Monk in a PuG.