Curse

Lanier · Oct 17, 2010, 01:36 AM // 01:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Re-read your post in which you quoted Chthon's comment.

oops, looked at my wrong post.

Quote:

People DO run prot hybrids, you're right. They just run them on ER ele heroes.

This is true, ER's are so damn powerful.

Chthon · Oct 17, 2010, 01:55 AM // 01:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae

Monks, especially Prot monks, are superfluous. It's not their fault. ER, SR and SY, at least, would have to be HAMMERED just to put the Prot monk on par with the alternatives.

If monks had adequate e-management to spam 10e skills and a way to recharge goodies like Aegis, I'd consider them a viable alternative.

(proposed example: "Holy Haste: 5e, 1/4cast, 15recharge, All your other monk skills are recharged and you gain 0...4 energy for each skill recharged in this way. 50% chance of failure with DF 5 or less." + revert Selfless Spirit to -5e)

Quote:

Hey, it could be worse.......you could be a Ranger.

True that...

maxxfury · Oct 17, 2010, 02:10 AM // 02:10

Almost sounds like your calling for a monk's version of AP without the 'hex' stipulation

Xenomortis · Oct 17, 2010, 11:15 AM // 11:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

If monks had adequate e-management to spam 10e skills and a way to recharge goodies like Aegis, I'd consider them a viable alternative.

Selfless Spirit sort of works, but the recharge is too long for it to be viable on its own.
For Selfless I would either weaken the effect (1 or 2 less energy per cast) and increase the duration, or strengthen the effect and decrease duration (and recharge slightly).
With Selfless at -5e I would say hit the duration to about 10-12 seconds and take the recharge to 30.

Chthon · Oct 17, 2010, 09:45 PM // 21:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

Almost sounds like your calling for a monk's version of AP without the 'hex' stipulation

That's precisely what I'm driving at. It would approach ER in terms of being broken, but do so in a complicated enough way that it wouldn't turn into another Ursan.

The intended purpose would be to put Selfless Spirit, Seed of Life, and Aegis on recharge, then pop this to recharge them and gain ~7e net. That should leave you with enough energy to drive PS spam and leave the elite open for WoH. It would not quite equal the raw power of ER, but perma-aegis and surgical use of SoL might make it a viable alternative.

To the extent that people still haven't learned to use those skills, it would not benefit them terribly much.

Calista Blackblood · Oct 17, 2010, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

(proposed example: "Holy Haste: 5e, 1/4cast, 15recharge, All your other monk skills are recharged and you gain 0...4 energy for each skill recharged in this way. 50% chance of failure with DF 5 or less." + revert Selfless Spirit to -5e)

I like that idea,haven't used (or seen being used) HH since pre LoD nerf/WoH buff an update would do it no harm..

If only *sigh*

Cuilan · Oct 17, 2010, 11:43 PM // 23:43

So what would a general party heal and clean bar look like for monking with an ER look like?

Xenomortis · Oct 17, 2010, 11:56 PM // 23:56

Straight up healing with an ER is easy.

UA
DKiss
Divine Healing
Heaven's Delight
Heal Party
GoLE/Auspicious (Insp spec... eugh)
Seed of Life
Hex Removal/Condition Removal/whatever

Or just run the standard Healer's Boon bar.

Heavy conditions means RC or Draw (plus stuff like Extinguish maybe). If you want healing with condition cleaning then either run the bar I gave above (or any AoE heal bar) with draw or a hybrid bar with RC.

Cleaning vs hexes is harder. There really isn't anything viable for cleaning against mass hexes - Divert is 10 energy and is one of the better options, but for strict cleaning a Mes with Expel can do better. The recharge on stuff like PnH and Withdraw are just too long to really be workable.
In the end you're forced to identify the most dangerous hexes to remove on the most important characters or fill half your bar with removal. Actual hex spam is fairly rare though.

Lanier · Oct 18, 2010, 03:16 PM // 15:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

If monks had adequate e-management to spam 10e skills and a way to recharge goodies like Aegis, I'd consider them a viable alternative.

Technically, constantly spamming prot spirit/spirit bond on recharge is not necessary to keep a party alive even at the hardest level. It is far easier for obvious reasons, but a good monk could still keep a party alive, and since the height of monking is keeping a party alive, prot monk (hybrids) could still always be considered a viable alternative (on humans).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Straight up healing with an ER is easy.

UA
DKiss
Divine Healing
Heaven's Delight
Heal Party
GoLE/Auspicious (Insp spec... eugh)
Seed of Life
Hex Removal/Condition Removal/whatever

Or just run the standard Healer's Boon bar.

I would definitely recommend HB over UA for the reasons I stated in the other thread. Replace divine healing/heavens delight with patient spirit/ethereal light + healing seed or another removal spell in this situation.

An ER healer can also work effectively. Just throw in the standard ER skills on your hero (ER, Aura of restoration, and I always choose life attunement for maintaining on the ER himself). Then throw in a second copy of Aegis, Heal other, jamei's gaze, and I like to include heal area for a self heal + some limited party healing. A removal skill (like divert hexes or cure hex) can round out the build.

Xenomortis · Oct 18, 2010, 06:26 PM // 18:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

I would definitely recommend HB over UA for the reasons I stated in the other thread. Replace divine healing/heavens delight with patient spirit/ethereal light + healing seed or another removal spell in this situation.

The thing with Patient and Etheral is that they're single target. Patient is also fairly unspectacular in PvE. Healing seed is also very unimpressive.
Your ER has the best spike heal in the game so most of the time yours redundant. One spot heal (DKiss) is enough.
You either capitalise on the AoE heals or you suffer greatly from redundancy.

Ensign · Oct 18, 2010, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

The unfortunate bit for the monk is that other classes often do a better job at these roles too. For instance, while I haven't run the numbers, I strongly suspect that the heal/sec on a RitLord passive resto build greatly surpasses anything a monk can do.

Perhaps, but I don't really care about per second numbers, and even less so when it comes to party healing. The problem is that the team just got blown up and is low, and you want to fix this. Heal Party -> GLE -> Heal Party under Healer's Boon fixes this. Sandbagged Nignog -> recast Nignog -> Drop Nignog works as well but is harder to set up / not available as often. Maybe there's something you can do with UA and DH/HD that also solves this problem.

Pretty much everything else is essentially party Orisons or Healing Breeze that doesn't solve problems and I don't really care about.

Seed of Life is impossibly frustrating; if you set it up right to be amazing it isn't needed, but in the situations where it's needed things have broken down and it doesn't work reliably. There's a certain amount of 'LOL your bad' in there, but a lot of it is on whoever is holding aggro, not the Monk.

In general Monks are just fundamentally fair, and against dumb mobs you want fragile broken combos. That, and in all fairness party healing is in really, really bad shape and nothing does it terribly well without being horribly one dimensional. I don't know if there's a quick hack to fix it.

Lanier · Oct 18, 2010, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

The thing with Patient and Etheral is that they're single target. Patient is also fairly unspectacular in PvE. Healing seed is also very unimpressive.
Your ER has the best spike heal in the game so most of the time yours redundant. One spot heal (DKiss) is enough.
You either capitalise on the AoE heals or you suffer greatly from redundancy.

I was operating under the assumption that the ER was a hero. While they use infuse fairly well, they don't spam it enough to make up for not having a healing-oriented monk in the party. I suppose you can always hotkey it... but still...

Healing seed's main weakness is its casting time. Reduce that (with HB) and its a pretty good skill. Not nearly as good as seed of life but with the long recharges each one has, having both has worked out real well for my HB build.

Xenomortis · Oct 18, 2010, 08:34 PM // 20:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

I was operating under the assumption that the ER was a hero. While they use infuse fairly well, they don't spam it enough to make up for not having a healing-oriented monk in the party. I suppose you can always hotkey it... but still...

If you bring a human monk heal bar when your prots are being provided by an ER hero, you're doing something wrong.
If your backline is purely heroes, then you were being deceptive (certainly misleading).

Lanier · Oct 19, 2010, 02:22 AM // 02:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

If you bring a human monk heal bar when your prots are being provided by an ER hero, you're doing something wrong.
If your backline is purely heroes, then you were being deceptive (certainly misleading).

Uh, the first one. human ER's typically arn't available off the street. When someone asks about a good backline partner for an ER, I automatically assume they are talking about a hero ER. If a human ER is being used, then your build would be sufficient. However, with a hero ER, there isn't enough healing power. In that situation, it would be better to bring more single target heals than just Dkiss.

why would a human healer be "doing it wrong" with an ER hero? When Im on my monk, I would rather my fellow backliner be an ER.

Errant Venture · Oct 19, 2010, 03:43 AM // 03:43

Gift of health is pointless when patient heals for more and has a lower recharge at all reasonable specs.

FoxBat · Oct 19, 2010, 05:06 AM // 05:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Errant Venture

Gift of health is pointless when patient heals for more and has a lower recharge at all reasonable specs.

There are NO specs at which a single patient outheals gift, but indeed patient does give you nearly the same healing with far fewer restrictions.

Ensign · Oct 19, 2010, 08:44 AM // 08:44

I've been playing around with a lot of different elites, trying to cram more utility into a bar (aka party healing). If you're not using Word, or HBoon / Heal Party, then Gift is better than everything else in Healing Prayers.

The main knock on it now is that it doesn't play nicely alongside another Monk with Word and Patient, as single target heals in general step on those.

Divine Healing and Heaven's Delight are really underwhelming. I think a lot of the reason is time. In situations where they should shine, there are usually more pressing concerns than a party Orison. You need something that stabilizes the situation and DH/HD don't get it done; only Booned Party is really a solution.

The best I could do was UA, HD, DH, Gift, and Divert. It doesn't feel that bad, but it chews up your utility slots and none of your skills are super strong.

Every Monk bar except Word feels either weak, or narrow and specialized to fill in the holes in the rest of the build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Errant Venture

Gift of health is pointless when patient heals for more and has a lower recharge at all reasonable specs.

Except that the two skills do very different things in practice...

(You almost never want to Patient a person at 20%; similarly you almost never want to Gift someone at 70%. There's a bit of blurry ground in the middle when you're under heavy degen, but in a whole lot of cases they play rather differently.)

Word/DKiss/Gift are single target heals that I'm perfectly ok with having as the only heal on my bar. Patient is never your only heal, it's a second, supplemental one.

Xenomortis · Oct 22, 2010, 07:02 PM // 19:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

why would a human healer be "doing it wrong" with an ER hero? When Im on my monk, I would rather my fellow backliner be an ER.

I don't know about you, but I'm pretty sure I can prot better than Vekk whilst using my Monk. The redbar capability of an ER hero is lackluster. A N/Rt does a better job.

Lanier · Oct 22, 2010, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

I don't know about you, but I'm pretty sure I can prot better than Vekk whilst using my Monk.

Im pretty sure that I can too but i don't always run a prot bar on myself. Sometimes I want to run a HB build instead.

Xenomortis · Oct 24, 2010, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Divine Healing and Heaven's Delight are really underwhelming. I think a lot of the reason is time. In situations where they should shine, there are usually more pressing concerns than a party Orison. You need something that stabilizes the situation and DH/HD don't get it done; only Booned Party is really a solution.

With 16 in Healing Prayers, HB+Heal Party heals for 117: 78*1.5
With 16 Divine Favor, DF and HD under UA heal for 102: 63*1.63 (rounded down).
15 less health isn't a big deal. 5 energy heals are.
Even with only 12 in Healing, HP is going to heal for 107 (rounded down). The difference here is that it takes two seconds to get out, rather than one. But you know* when things are about to go bad and you need a fast recharging Party Heal, allowing you to precast GoLE/AI and start HP as soon as they do. Or don't bother with the Glyph and just eat the 15e for HP - your energy shouldn't be suffering too bad since you're spending most of the time riding on two 5e skills that heal your team for over a hundred.

*I want to clarify. There is one situation in which I would ever consider using Healer's Boon or Unyielding Aura. When I have an ER Ele with Protective Bond (or even just PS and SY somewhere in the team) or perhaps an ST Rit, or any other time when my prots would be largely wasted and there is already a very good spike heal, then I start pushing for AoE heals and extra utility.
It is this situation I assume when I discuss UA vs HB. When enchantments drop, the ER dies, or whatever, you have some prior warning to when you're really going to need to start pushing out heals.
If this scenario isn't assumed, then you fall back to Word of Healing (or whatever Gift of Health bar you like).

Yes that UA bar doesn't leave much room for cleaning but you usually don't need it. When you do need it, it's usually because the dirt is being spammed and that necessitates a more dedicated cleaner anyway.