Curse

LifeInfusion · Oct 10, 2010, 04:52 AM // 04:52

I was thinking of uses for Gift of Health now that Zealous Benediction has been ousted in terms of usage in favor of more efficient heals. In most cases I feel pure redbar is better, but against Hex heavy/condition areas, not so much. Also, when in a team with another monk, I see mass overhealing when the other monk will redbar on someone that has patient spirit or heal up when the person is only at 70% or 80% HP.

We can push 11+1+1/11+1/8+1 so 13 prot, 12 DF, 9 Healing or 13DF, 12Prot, 9 Healing.

ZB heals for 150-160 then, which is pretty bad considering Spirit Light does that for 5 energy and a moderate investment. The consolation is that you get divine favor and a 7 energy return if you heal a target <50% HP, which makes it cheaper. Divine Favor is most useful when spamming 5 energy targeted spells, so that presents another problem.

The problem with gift of health is you end up losing cure hex, patient spirit, dwayna's kiss. Reversal of fortune isn't as viable without protective spirit since you gamble on whether incoming damage surpasses 67 or 71, and wanding in general makes it pretty bad since the heal will be smaller than that of Orison, which makes it a supreme waste of energy. In order to do something like a 14 Healing prayers Patient spirit, you need it to prevent at least a 57 damage hit. That's easily doable in Hard mode. At the same time, the highest it will reverse is 134-142 damage, whereas patient spirit heals 170 under Healer's Boon and 180 or so under a high specced UA.

Seed of Life depends on Divine Favor, so in this case it is pretty decent as an alternative to Shielding Hands or Healing Seed (and to add party healing when you don't have access to Heal Party). However, the duration versus recharge is much lower, encouraging chaining.

Pumping up protection doesn't do that much for the usability of Prot Spirit, but helps with Spirit bond's healing amount. The issue being you can't cast Spirit Bond that often on a monk. Shield Guardian is of dubious use, since you need energy to spam it or have allies in nearby range of the target.

So the main prot options are Shield of Absorption (SoA), Shielding Hands (outdone by SoA except for Normal Mode, since after 3 hits SoA is better and is up more often), Guardian (redundant with Aegis and the way mobs change targets but a good skill).

Things like Dismiss Condition, Reversal of Fortune don't do anything particularly special now that we have super powered heals. Reversal of Fortune prevents overheal though. The most profound feature of Protection prayers is bulk hex/condition removal though, as evidenced by Restore Condition and Life Sheath. Life Sheath has to compete with Weapon of Remedy and Mend Body and Soul for condition removal (especially with Wielder's Remedy up). Divert Hexes is really area dependent and 10 energy isn't cheap.

Option 1, UA being used improperly:
1 Unyielding Aura (use headgear swap for 11+1+3 = 15 DF for +60%)
2 Divine Healing/Heaven's Delight (mop up AoE damage , ~80ish heal)
3 Gift of Health = 96 base heal @ 9 Healing --> 153.6 after UA (5 cooldown)
4 Selfless Spirit (energy management for the 5 energy spell spam, to make up for 1 pip)
5 Deny hexes (hex stack removal)
6 Dismiss Condition (63 Heal) / Mend Condition (61 heal) --> ~100 Heal
7 SoA/Guardian/Shielding Hands (5 energy prots)
8 Prot Spirit/Spirit Bond

It's not viable compared to 14 healing, but if you want to run prots I guess this is an option. Also, there's no dedicated self-heal ala Patient spirit and cure hex isn't available with gift disabling stuff on your bar. Patient spirit and cure hex heal 84 when at 9 Healing. Clearly such a bar doesn't pack a healing punch, but the prots can't really hold up either. The strongest prots (Spirit Bond, Shield Guardian, Prot Spirit) are 10 energy while 5 energy prots are on longer cooldown or aren't that viable. The most viable thing here is Shielding Hands due to the heal on ending, but the recharge is really limiting so SoA wins out.

Option 2: BL hybrid
1 RoF (outdated) / Divine Healing in areas with party wide damage
2 Gift of Health
3 Blessed Light (too expensive to use on recharge...use on person with damage, hexed, condition)
4 SoA/Guardian
5 Dismiss
6 Holy Veil/Deny Hexes
7 Selfless Spirit (to fund BL, making it 7 energy)
8 Spirit Bond/Prot Spirit

Blessed Light is generally outclassed by Empathic Removal, but without it there aren't that many healing options outside of healing prayers.

Option 3: RC
1 Restore Condition
2 Gift of Health = 96 base heal @ 9 Healing
3 RoF (outdated)
4 Divine Healing/Heaven's Delight
5 SoA/Guardian (5 energy prots)
6 Remove hex
7 Selfless Spirit/Glyph of Lesser Energy
8 Spirit Bond/Prot Spirit

* no self heal

Option 4: Aura of Faith
1 Aura of Faith (93% more heal and -44% damage for 3 seconds , works before DF)
2 Gift of Health = 96 base heal @ 9 Healing
3 RoF (outdated) / Divine Healing in areas with party wide damage
4 Dismiss Condition
5 SoA/Guardian (5 energy prots)
6 Remove hex
7 Selfless Spirit
8 Spirit Bond/Prot Spirit

* Use spirit bond before Aura of Faith if using Spirit Bond is needed
* no self heal

Option 5: Life Sheath
1 Life Sheath
2 Gift of Health = 96 base heal @ 9 Healing
3 Guardian/Aegis
4 Divine Healing/Heaven's Delight
5 SoA
6 Remove hex
7 Selfless Spirit
8 Spirit Bond/Prot Spirit

* no self heal , also Xinrae's Weapon makes this look bad

Option 6: old-school ZB
1 Zealous Benediction (11+1+1 Prot here) = 160 (sad)
2 Gift of Health = 96 base heal @ 9 Healing
3 Selfless Spirit/Glyph of Lesser Energy
4 RoF (outdated) / Heaven's Delight in areas with partywide damage
5 Remove Hex
6 Dismiss Condition (63 Heal) / Mend Condition (61 heal)
7 SoA/Guardian (5 energy prots)
8 Spirit Bond/Prot Spirit

no party heal here, since no heal party or divine healing (50 heal without UA).

Option 7: Boon Sig
1 Boon Signet
2 Gift of Health
3 RoF (outdated) / Heaven's Delight in areas with partywide damage
4 Remove Hex
5 Dismiss Condition
6 SoA/Guardian
7 Divine Boon
8 Prot Spirit (to make damage manageable)...if not carried on other characters

* Selfless Spirit is redundant here, no power heals and Boon Signet is clumsy when you need to spot heal
* no self heal...

Left over elites:
Protection: Divert Hexes, Mark of Protection, Shield of Deflection, Shield of Regeneration (15 energy!), Amity, Air of Enchantment, Life Barrier
Divine Favor: Peace and Harmony, Healer's Boon (uh no, not with gift), Spell breaker, Scribe's Insight (terrible), Withdraw Hexes (use Divert Hexes)
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In short: Can't really think of a good use for it since it denies use of the entire Healing prayers line. Divine Boon doesn't work with Gift. Also other than Prot spirit and Shield of Absorption, the use of Aegis and Prot spirit on necros and ER eles has really reduced the need for a prot monk.

The damage mitigation from SY! (Warrior), TNTF! (Paragon), ER eles, Necros with Prot Spirit + Aegis,Panic mesmers has lessened the need for prot monks.

TalanRoarer · Oct 13, 2010, 11:49 PM // 23:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

ER eles has really reduced the need for a prot monk.

The damage mitigation from SY! (Warrior), TNTF! (Paragon), ER eles, Necros with Prot Spirit + Aegis,Panic mesmers has lessened the need for prot monks.

Agreed.

I can't remember the last time I saw a full Prot monk. I have to go years back (but then my memory is terrible). In all honesty nowadays I only see 1 PP skill at all, PS.

I'm no monk expert so excuse any ignorance on my part, but I've never been a fan of GoL in PvE. I see it as a skill for PvP RA monks.

Xenomortis · Oct 14, 2010, 12:03 AM // 00:03

Restore Condition
RoF
Gift
Aegis
Prot Spirit
SoA
Hex Removal (probably Remove Hex)
GoLE

Fix the spec as you like. Divine Favour isn't as important (the two AoE DF heals have been cut) so 12+1+1 Prot and 10+1 Heal is easy to reach.

Take Seed of Life on a human and get rid of the least important skill (RoF or the hex removal).

The two problems are horrible energy management and the fact that Reversal of Fortune (as nice as it can be is) is horribly unreliable. A pure Prot Monk just loses to an ER Ele and there's little reason to not just run two WoH Hybrids if you lack the ER.

Zealous Benediction is an iffy elite - it's potentially very good but requires you to front up 10 energy for a spike heal to save someone and only conditionally gives an energy return. The other prot elites are useless.
RC is the only reason why I would ever spec a Monk heavily into prot (that is, beyond 9 or 10).

The desire for prot monks may have decreased, but the need for protection generally increases. I don't consider that as a necessarily bad thing, but the power of the alternative protection sources is too strong (ER Eles are unfair in this area and SY is retarded).

TalanRoarer · Oct 14, 2010, 12:10 AM // 00:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

The other prot elites are useless.

http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Divert_Hexes

Xenomortis · Oct 14, 2010, 12:23 AM // 00:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by TalanRoarer

http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Divert_Hexes

10 energy... eh.
Although more truly I forgot about that one.

Really, I don't have a problem with Gift of Health. At 10 (or 9+1) in Healing Prayers it heals for over 100 (plus Divine Favour (8-9 (+1?))) which is a respectable heal, especially considering your primary function with a prot bar is not to heal. The skill just helps plug a gap in your bar that means your other monk/backliner (a more dedicated heal bar) is less likely to collapse.

The real problem, the one that stops more dedicated prot bars from being really desirable, is that a monk's energy management is non-existent. With PvE being like it is, that's potentially problematic (given how necessary prot is). With everything else that's available, protection is one of the last things that a monk should be looking at to dedicate their bar in (hence why I push for RC as the elite).

TalanRoarer · Oct 14, 2010, 12:30 AM // 00:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

The real problem, the one that stops more dedicated prot bars from being really desirable, is that a monk's energy management is non-existent.

Agreed. Bar maybe 1, Monk primary energy management skills are extremely bad. You almost always see Monks going into /e or /me for their e-management. (and even then...)

RC and DH are the best PP elites by a mile, the rest have been made useless by SY! and TNTF!

Xenomortis · Oct 14, 2010, 12:37 AM // 00:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by TalanRoarer

the rest have been made useless by SY! and TNTF!

Even without those two, the remaining elites aren't useful - limited effect, short duration or high energy cost all prevent their use. Life Sheath is I think the next competitor but it falls short compared to RC.*

*LS is only good if it's consistently removing conditions (otherwise you run RoF for that functionality). If there are enough conditions for this to be the case, then you run RC for the more reliable damage mop-up and for a more powerful cleaning skill.

Chthon · Oct 15, 2010, 04:07 AM // 04:07

1. Those prot elites were always bad.

2. The problem with a dedicated prot build comes back to the fact that most of the prot line sucks. You've got a handful of the most important skills in the game mixed with a bunch of stuff not worth running. (And running a bar comprised of the good stuff takes the kind of energy management that only ER can offer.)

3. I'm not sure on LS vs RC. AT 3 conditions per pop, RC is going to be removing 3 conditions vs 2 and healing for more -- clear winner. At 2 conditions per pop, it's maybe a dead heat; both remove 2 conditions and the healing is probably similar, with a tradeoff between max potential and max reliability. At 1 condition per pop, LS clearly is almost always going to heal for more. This is around the point where Xeno's argument comes into play -- isn't it better to just use RoF? That's one way to look at it. The other way to look at it is bar compression. Compare RoF+Dismiss to LF+free space.

Lanier · Oct 15, 2010, 04:38 AM // 04:38

Gift of health is still good.

Quote:

2. The problem with a dedicated prot build comes back to the fact that most of the prot line sucks. You've got a handful of the most important skills in the game mixed with a bunch of stuff not worth running. (And running a bar comprised of the good stuff takes the kind of energy management that only ER can offer.)

Not true. While there are plenty of crappy prots, not all of the good ones are energy intensive. Aegis/Guardian is not evergy intensive. Shield of Absorbtion is not energy intensive. Combine those two with prot spirit and you have a very solid foundation for a prot hybrid.

While ZB may be oldschool, I still use it all the time with great success. In fact, it is probably my monk's most used elite. I like hybrid builds over pure heal builds, and ZB is my favorite skill to use due to the spike heal combined with the energy management. It also allows me to use Gift of health as my secondary heal.

This is what I typically run:
Zealous Benediction
Gift of Health
Reversal of Fortune
Shield of Absorbtion
Protective Spirit
Aegis (guardian for less than 8 man areas)
Dismiss Condition
Seed of life/holy veil/remove hex/energy management spell (just w/e the hell you want to use here)

Its got plenty of redbarring power with ZB, GoH, the spot heal that RoF provides (I really like RoF, it usefulness in general PvE is very underrated) and Dismiss Condition. Skills 4-6 provide the protection core that makes hybrid builds worth taking and more useful than pure heal builds.

As for the rest of the prot elites... they don't suck and they never really have. The thing about them is that they have always been area specific. They shine in certain areas and they just arnt worth taking in others. I guess this is pretty obvious for the hex/condition removal elites but it is also true for elites like SoD and SoR. They shine when used in certain situations and simply arnt worth bringing in others. The reason why they typically get overlooked by the healing elites is because
a) healing elites are easier to use. Prot elites, while they can be more powerful, also require more skill to use.
b) healing elites are universally useful while prot elites are extremely useful in certain situations and extremely not in others.

Oh, and I lump ZB in with the healing elites.

Quote:

RC and DH are the best PP elites by a mile, the rest have been made useless by SY! and TNTF!

Really now? And how often do you have SY and TNTF in your group? Im going to assume unless you are a paragon or a warrior (or maybe an assassin), that this is not all that often.

EDIT: I dont understand why pure redbar is always favored nowadays. A couple of years ago, people would ALWAYS say that hybrids are better than pure healers, and monks havent changed much since then. HB hasnt really changed at all and UA is just like HB in terms of redbarring except inferior. Anyone know why people favor redbarring more nowadays? Is it just because its simpler or what?

Xenomortis · Oct 15, 2010, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

At 1 condition per pop, LS clearly is almost always going to heal for more. This is around the point where Xeno's argument comes into play -- isn't it better to just use RoF? That's one way to look at it. The other way to look at it is bar compression. Compare RoF+Dismiss to LF+free space.

If you're reliably hitting a condition (even if it's just one) with every use (and that use is frequent) then it's good. Except for that to be the case, conditions are going to pretty much be everywhere and since RC will mop up damage more reliably (a single use of LS can mop up more damage, but probably won't), RC makes the better case in my view.
In the case of bugger all conditions both are fairly useless but then there's bugger all else (Zealous Benediction?).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Not true. While there are plenty of crappy prots, not all of the good ones are energy intensive. Aegis/Guardian is not evergy intensive. Shield of Absorbtion is not energy intensive. Combine those two with prot spirit and you have a very solid foundation for a prot hybrid.

Protective Spirit is the most important prot in PvE. After that it's Aegis. Both of those are 10 energy skills and a monk cannot be liberal with PS without blowing away their energy.
Spirit Bond and Shield of Absorption are the next good prots - Spirit Bond is 10 energy and has a short duration (and you're not always going to get good mileage out of it) while Shield of Absorption is cheap but generally prevents less than the other prots.
A monk can take Prot Spirit, SoA, Aegis, some energy management and Seed of Life. After that, they're at a loss as to what to take.
There simply isn't anything else that's good for actual protection. Guardian's duration is too limited to be worth the slot, Reversal of Fortune is unreliable and the rest meaningless. Guardian makes a better case in the 4-man and some of the easier going 6-man areas, since mobs are small and physicals easy to keep track of. But here, you're better off running a WoH Hybrid.
So you look at cleaning - hence RC and Divert Hexes (although I might look at Expel Hexes if I was willing to spec into Inspiration for energy management).

Also, unless enchantments are everywhere, I prefer Mend Condition over Dismiss. I would only take either because there's nothing I actually want though.

Lanier · Oct 15, 2010, 06:59 PM // 18:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Protective Spirit is the most important prot in PvE. After that it's Aegis. Both of those are 10 energy skills and a monk cannot be liberal with PS without blowing away their energy.

Aegis's energy cost is deceptive. a 12 second +block rate for the entire party really helps out immensely with a monk's passive energy management. Against pure physical mobs, you pretty much get 12 seconds to recup your energy without having to monk. Against the normal mixed mobs, it seriously reduces the damage taken to your party and thus the damage you have to heal. I typically consider Aegis to be the most energy conservative skill on my bar (with SoA and ZB close behind). Prot spirit is expensive but its not one of the skills like SoA that you want to spam on recharge. I typically only have to use prot spirit 1-2 times per mob. Its simply not necessary to use Prot Spirit repetitively enough that it would be a serious drain on your energy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Spirit Bond and Shield of Absorption are the next good prots - Spirit Bond is 10 energy and has a short duration (and you're not always going to get good mileage out of it) while Shield of Absorption is cheap but generally prevents less than the other prots.

When placed smartly (and this is a large reason why good monking involves looking at the battle rather than at redbars), SoA is a huge, huge, awesome skill. It can prevent a ton of damage when placed on the party member that the monsters are training on most, and can really help out with energy management. I don't think I would ever consider taking it off my bar. It is just so good. While Spirit Bond is also useful, it is largely repetitive with Prot spirit and isn't really necessary to take when you already have Prot spirit in your bar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

A monk can take Prot Spirit, SoA, Aegis, some energy management and Seed of Life. After that, they're at a loss as to what to take.

Thats why you run a hybrid. I can't really think of a reason why I would run a pure prot bar. What you do is slot the three prots (SoA, Guardian/Aegis depending on location, and prot spirit) into a bar, and then fill the rest with healing, removal skills, or energy management. With those prots, I typically don't need too much e-management unless doing a really tough area where i know im going to have to throw off more prot spirits than normal. Otherwise, I fill my bar with 2-3 heals (ZB, gift of health, and reversal of fortune or WoH, patient spirit, and sig of rejuv depending on which hybrid im running) and seed of life/removal skills/GoLe or selfless spirit in the last two spots.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

There simply isn't anything else that's good for actual protection. Guardian's duration is too limited to be worth the slot, Reversal of Fortune is unreliable and the rest meaningless. Guardian makes a better case in the 4-man and some of the easier going 6-man areas, since mobs are small and physicals easy to keep track of. But here, you're better off running a WoH Hybrid.

Definitely true regarding guardian, though why not run it in a WoH (or ZB) hybrid? I pretty much always bring it in 4-6 man areas in place of Aegis. As for RoF, I have found it to be exceedingly useful as a spot heal. It also makes a good "oh shit" skill when you havnt been paying attention to the field and a party member has been spiked. I almost always RoF in these situations before using my spike heal, so that I know i'll get the heal off in time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Also, unless enchantments are everywhere, I prefer Mend Condition over Dismiss. I would only take either because there's nothing I actually want though.

I guess that just comes down to personal opinion. I have always prefered dismiss condition but mend condition is pretty good too. I know people who prefer mend ailment as well... so the choice of condition removal usually ends up coming down to personal preference i guess.

LifeInfusion · Oct 15, 2010, 11:22 PM // 23:22

The thing about Aegis is unless you are playing with heroes, you're very unlikely to find someone that will use it (that isn't a monk).

I like Aegis, but only when it is mostly physical attackers. Otherwise it is a waste of slot. It isn't all that expensive, considering it used to be 15 energy. It is the only monk party wide prot skill, unlike dumb redbarring such as heal party or divine healing, which is reactive (Dwayna's sorrow is ridiculous to use on a monk). Even after UA, Divine healing and Heal party heal about 90-100 so aegis only has to block 2 hits per party member to be comparable in HM since hits usually are 40 to 100 damage.

TNTF!/Save Yourselves! has proven prot has to be partywide or it's more or less not going to be heavily used.

Ensign · Oct 16, 2010, 12:19 AM // 00:19

Gift of Health is good. I don't care about Patient in PvE; Heal Party is for characters dedicated entirely to that skill, and Dwayna's does the same sort of thing though very conditionally.

The bigger problem is getting enough use out of another elite to make you not want to run Word, which is roughly 2x better than Gift.

Prot isn't any worse now, it's just that in organized builds there are a bunch of PvE skills you can take advantage of (Ether Renewal, SY, TNTF) that do such a phenomenal job that, when paired with those characters, Monks don't need to do a whole lot with their prot. In particular, with an ER Ele around, all you really need from a Monk is party healing and cleaning. If you don't have a power prot character on your team, you of course find a way to fit all the good Prot on your bar.

Auron of Neon · Oct 16, 2010, 02:17 AM // 02:17

If TNTF/SY ever get hit, prot might be worth taking again.

Strong party-wide prot that can't be removed is pretty nice, just a pity it's such a mindless mechanic. I'd prefer prots came back, they took at least a modicum of skill.

Lanier · Oct 16, 2010, 02:17 AM // 02:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

In particular, with an ER Ele around, all you really need from a Monk is party healing and cleaning. If you don't have a power prot character on your team, you of course find a way to fit all the good Prot on your bar.

This is true. I was operating under the assumption that the player is a monk and not an ele, and therefore, can't roll as an ER. If you can get an ER in your party, then they are vastly superior... to... well anything really a monk can do.

Chthon · Oct 16, 2010, 03:25 AM // 03:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by me

2. The problem with a dedicated prot build...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Not true.... a very solid foundation for a prot hybrid.

Reading comp failure.

Quote:

This is what I typically run:
Zealous Benediction
Gift of Health
Reversal of Fortune
Shield of Absorbtion
Protective Spirit
Aegis (guardian for less than 8 man areas)
Dismiss Condition
Seed of life/holy veil/remove hex/energy management spell (just w/e the hell you want to use here)

Its got plenty of redbarring power with ZB, GoH, the spot heal that RoF provides

It has too much redbar even. Those three skills are essentially redundant, and recharge quickly enough that you don't need all 3 to chain cast.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Protective Spirit is the most important prot in PvE. After that it's Aegis. Both of those are 10 energy skills and a monk cannot be liberal with PS without blowing away their energy.
Spirit Bond and Shield of Absorption are the next good prots - Spirit Bond is 10 energy and has a short duration (and you're not always going to get good mileage out of it) while Shield of Absorption is cheap but generally prevents less than the other prots.

I generally agree with this analysis. I'd like to expand on it a bit too:

(I'd been saving this for when I could really dedicate the time to writing it out clearly, but the way things are going, GW1 will be dead before that happens...)

Damage prevention generally has three basic sub-mechanics. I'm going to name them "Cap," "Percentage (Pct)," and "integer (Int)."

Cap caps damage at some value based off your max hp. As monster damage grows arbitrarily large, the amount of damage prevented by Cap grows faster than the other mechanics. If things hit hard enough, it overtakes everything on efficiency. Perhaps more importantly, it's the only guaranteed way to stop the "wtfpwn." If, for instance, HM Molotov Rocktail is about to drop 2k damage on your head, this is the only way to not die.
There's only 5 skills in the game that use this mechanic. DwX is largely useless because it's self-only; XW is unreliable because it only lasts one hit; ProtBond had an impossible energy requirement until ER got buffed, and remains useless outside the ER context; Shelter was useless until Soul Twisting got buffed (and, if ER didn't exist, it would probably be the top of the heap); and that leaves PS the most important damage prevention skill in the game by default. (At least it did up until the ST buff.)

Pct simply takes a percentage of the incoming damage off. The purest incarnation of this would be something like TntF or Life Barrier. However, there's a huge pool of skills that have the Pct effect in practice -- Aegis, BSurge, Enfeebling Blood, Reckless Haste, Ward Against Whatever, etc. It's probably the mechanic with the most incarnations second to damage dealing. The damage prevented through this mechanic increases in lockstep with monster damage as it grows.
As with any situation where there's a deep pool of skills that all do basically the same thing, a few stand out and the rest are just inferior. Unfortunately for monks, most of the standouts except Aegis belong to other classes (SY!, TntF, Enfeebling Blood, Panic (vs large mobs), Fevered Dreams(+blind), etc.).

Int shaves a fixed integer off the bottom of incoming hits. The original version of Shielding Hands (before it got the extraneous heal) was emblematic of this mechanic. This mechanic does not scale at all with the size of incoming damage, so the other two mechanics outpace it where monsters hit harder.
The skills worth using in this mechanic tend to be those that break the rules by allowing the size of the reduction to equal or exceed the size of the damage -- RoF, Spirit Bond, SoA.
Aside from that, Int can be useful for closing the "last mile" if you've already got Cap or Pct reduction taking damage down close enough to zero. The best examples are farm builds -- 55 builds (Cap from PS gets damage to 5, then SoA/SH brings it to zero) and Stoneflesh builds (Pct from armor skills takes damage under 33ish, then Stoneflesh takes it to zero) -- but the same principal can be applied in general play.

Taking a look at the best skills available to the monk in each mechanic pretty much brings us back to Xeno's list again, though I hope with a little more understanding of why he's right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Prot isn't any worse now, it's just that in organized builds there are a bunch of PvE skills you can take advantage of (Ether Renewal, SY, TNTF) that do such a phenomenal job that, when paired with those characters, Monks don't need to do a whole lot with their prot. In particular, with an ER Ele around, all you really need from a Monk is party healing and cleaning.

Good to see you're still kicking around the forums sometimes.

The unfortunate bit for the monk is that other classes often do a better job at these roles too. For instance, while I haven't run the numbers, I strongly suspect that the heal/sec on a RitLord passive resto build greatly surpasses anything a monk can do.

Xenomortis · Oct 16, 2010, 12:08 PM // 12:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

The unfortunate bit for the monk is that other classes often do a better job at these roles too. For instance, while I haven't run the numbers, I strongly suspect that the heal/sec on a RitLord passive resto build greatly surpasses anything a monk can do.

Eh, Monks are good at cleaning. Typically, in areas where you actually care about it, cleaning requires your elite and/or a large amount of your bar though (Draw will do for conditions in a pinch though): RC, Divert, SoR (eh), Expel Hexes (Mesmer wins with Fast Casting).
A Rit can do fairly passive party healing - Recuperation, Rejuvenation and some spike healing (Transfer, Spirit Light, MBAS) but apart from MBAS their cleaning power is limited and they have no way to deal with hexes. They also lack the more "on demand" party heal a Monk has with Heal Party. Over the long run though, I imagine they'll be more efficient and churn out more raw healing than a Monk.*
Getting good removal and good party healing on the same Monk bar is hard though, one of them inevitable ends up being gimped (although Draw always works).

*Edit:
Until you add Seed of Life, at which point the Monk rockets ahead.

Lanier · Oct 16, 2010, 06:00 PM // 18:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Reading comp failure.

That was not in response to you. That was in response to Xenomortis who said that after the three powerful prots (SoA, Aegis, and Prot spirit/Spirit Bond), there arent any more prots worth taking. That is why I suggested a prot hybrid. What I said had nothing to do with what you mentioned about pure prot bars not being worth it.

Xenomortis · Oct 16, 2010, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

That was not in response to you. That was in response to Xenomortis who said that after the three powerful prots (SoA, Aegis, and Prot spirit/Spirit Bond), there arent any more prots worth taking. That is why I suggested a prot hybrid. What I said had nothing to do with what you mentioned about pure prot bars not being worth it.

Re-read your post in which you quoted Chthon's comment.

Carinae · Oct 16, 2010, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

That was not in response to you. That was in response to Xenomortis who said that after the three powerful prots (SoA, Aegis, and Prot spirit/Spirit Bond), there arent any more prots worth taking. That is why I suggested a prot hybrid. What I said had nothing to do with what you mentioned about pure prot bars not being worth it.

People DO run prot hybrids, you're right. They just run them on ER ele heroes. ER heroes are specced around 10/10 heals/prot. Fill the bar with the four "cornerstone" prot skills, and 1-2 Red Bar Up skills from Healing, Win.

Hybrid, check.
Strongest Prot skills, check.
Strong RedBars, check.
Unlimited energy, check.

Monks, especially Prot monks, are superfluous. It's not their fault. ER, SR and SY, at least, would have to be HAMMERED just to put the Prot monk on par with the alternatives.

And that analysis is just for HERO healers. Player ER-PB bars put that to shame. In the presence of ER-PB, SY, TNTF, and even spirit/minion walls (all of which can be combined) there is NO place for a monk to run Prot AT ALL, period. Either run a HBHP party-healer variant to support the ER healer, or run Smiting to support the melees.

Hey, it could be worse.......you could be a Ranger.