Curse

dragonmaster1234 · Mar 22, 2011, 11:05 PM // 23:05

Hi Everyone I have been wondering if the monk skills Healer's Covenant and Selfless Spirit stack to reduce the energy cost of spells? Thanks in advance

~Vicktor

Cuilan · Mar 22, 2011, 11:38 PM // 23:38

Yes it does seem to stack. Curious to what build you'll them in? o.o

dragonmaster1234 · Mar 23, 2011, 12:44 AM // 00:44

Thanks and I was looking into making a new build something like this...

Divine Favor 12+1+1
Healing 12+1

Healer's Covenant
Selfless Spirit
Healing Whisper
Healing Seed
Ethereal Light
Cure Hex
Vigorous Spirit
Renew Life

Lemme know what you think?

turbo234 · Mar 23, 2011, 01:25 AM // 01:25

in all honesty, ethereal and healing whisper have too bad of drawbacks. if the casting time was shorter on ethereal or the heal was greater it mighttt be worth it.
otherwise i wouldn't see why you'd want to use both HC and SS on a build with almost all 5 energy spells. i would only use either or, or switch in a couple of 10 energy spells like jamies gaze/heal other.

Kunder · Mar 23, 2011, 01:42 AM // 01:42

Healer's Covenant is bad. Just bad. It subtracts from your healing AND your base energy available. Essentially, the -regen means that skills effectively cost 33% more (since you take longer to regain the energy) and the -healing means that skills effectively need to be cast 20-33% more (depends on divine favour %, which doesn't go down with HC).

Selfless Spirit doesn't stack with it well, because to actually use the extra effect you need to be using 10e+ spells. 10e spells suck balls in terms of energy efficiency in the first place and they also suffer horribly from the -25% heal rate of HC (which affects them more because a greater % of their heal is from the spell and less from the divine favour bonus). So its a losing proposition either way really. Oh and you can't keep up Selfless spirit 100% of the time without a major amount of help, but I won't even begin to consider this because using it with HC is still bad no matter what.

Essentially, the ONLY skill in the healing prayers line that will actually benefit from this is healing breeze, because it is a high energy cost spell and its effect isn't lost from the -25% heal rate modifer. While it does become insanely energy efficient, you have absolutely NO spike heal whatsoever. It will work if you are running a team with mad prot in which there is no spike damage, but chances are that you aren't if you are considering monk builds with HC. So instead of that, you are much better off taking an elite skill that is an efficient and large heal in and of itself, (WoH/Healer's Boon/Healing Burst), not an elite that makes already crappy monk heals worse in terms of healing and only marginally better in terms of energy management for most else.

To give you an idea through numbers, take Heal Other at 170 heal + 35 DF heal. HC decreases this spell to a 127 heal + 35 DF, and the cost with HC+SS is 4 energy. BUT, since you only have 3 energy regen, 4e spells effectively cost 5.32e because thats how long it would take you to regen the energy with 4 regen instead of 3. So (127 + 32 DF) / 5.32e = 30 HP/e. So with 1 skill slot for a heal + 1 PvE skill slot + 1 elite skill slot, we have 30 HP/e.

What do we get ONLY casting WoH, using only 1 skill slot? (203 heal + 35 DF) / 5e = 48 HP/e.

How about Healing Burst? Assuming you need the party heal (in most situations its never a bad idea to stop pressure) its (150 heal + 35 * 8) / 5e = 86 HP/e.

To be fair, half your team is probably at max health most of the time and won't get the full benefit from the party heal from Healing Burst at all time, but worst case its only slightly worse than WoH and the the obvious advantage of 48>30 is there, not to mention you do it in only 1 skill slot.

WarcryOfTruth · Mar 23, 2011, 01:54 AM // 01:54

Heal Other/Jamei's Gaze could fit well in those bars maybe?

LifeInfusion · Mar 23, 2011, 06:26 PM // 18:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarcryOfTruth

Heal Other/Jamei's Gaze could fit well in those bars maybe?

Neither are better than using your elite for Healing Burst (1 recharge difference unless you run both) or UA + Gift = DH+HD, so no. 170(14 heal) *0.75=127.5 after all. The energy savings is steeper for 5 energy skills, but there's no 5 energy monk powerheals that are non-elite (spirit light is restor), unless you run gift...which makes the whole skill pointless since you will be powering 1 heal. Everything 5 energy runs up to 114 or so (patient/ethereal/whisper) but once you cut the 25% heal off, they heal for orison-like levels (86 or less) and the savings is only 2 energy after you factor in the loss of ` pip of e-regen. Another consideration is that it doesn't reduce Divine favor. However, you need to spam skills more, so the ideal skill would likely be healing whisper (5 energy and 25% reduction results in [email protected] which is the same as orison...).

Other than for party heals (UA+DH in particular), you're better off with anything but UA/Healer's Covenant since anything that takes away energy regen makes skills 33% more expensive.

JDRyder · Mar 30, 2011, 03:21 AM // 03:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Healer's Covenant is bad. Just bad.

Clearly you've never used this build
http://www.gwpvx.com/Special:PvXDeco...ame=&Go=Submit

Kunder · Mar 30, 2011, 04:19 AM // 04:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

Clearly you've never used this build
http://www.gwpvx.com/Special:PvXDeco...ame=&Go=Submit

You are right. I have never used it because I don't use bad builds.

JDRyder · Mar 30, 2011, 08:49 AM // 08:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

You are right. I have never used it because I don't use bad builds.

Bad enough for top 10 Gvg guilds.

Kunder · Mar 30, 2011, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdryder

bad enough for top 10 gvg guilds.

Quote:

guild wars forums - gw guru > the hall of knowledge > the campfire > monk > healer's covenant and selfless spirit

Anyone using PvP builds (and sub par ones at that) in PvE is setting themselves up for failure and/or mediocrity. I hope you don't mind, but I immediately ignore any references to "top 10 gvg" guilds because there are only about 5 gvg guilds anyways.

LifeInfusion · Mar 30, 2011, 09:22 PM // 21:22

Healing Burst works :P

14Heal/8Prot/9DF/8tac (or 13Heal/11DF/7prot/7tac)

Burst
Patient
cure hex
Seed (PVE skill)...instead of infuse
SoA (instead of guardian...because mobs don't swap targets.)
Prot spirit (instead of sig of rejuv)
draw
IaU (instead of balanced stance)

http://www.gwpvx.com/Build:Mo/P_WoH_Jade_Quarry
http://www.gwpvx.com/Build:Mo/any_WoH_Monk
http://www.gwpvx.com/Build:Mo/W_GvG_Healing_Burst

It's just that in GvG you delegate one monk to prot, so you need to slot more prot instead of just Guardian+draw AND you have a dedicated party healer in the form of a Restor rit flagrunner or Healing Burst.

EDIT: Ironically, the reason why you see 2 PVE heal monks with a few choice prots is because we have insane amounts of damage mitigation via Imbagons/ER eles that invalidates most of the prot line on Monk primaries. And it's hard to to RoF right in PvE...plus UA is PVE only. If we had more dedicated roles we'd be better off due to avoidance of overheal on stuff like patient (2 monks running one patient + any number of spot heals is annoying), like in FOWSC you roll with one UA monk only rather than 2 healers. Patient is exponentially better in PVP because you won't see bulk strips in bulk mobs, plus since it's one healer and one prot you don't have overheal due to someone d-kissing/bursting/ethereal/gift/etc. after you just slapped patient on the person at 50-70%...

The Healer's Covenant bar still sucks regardless. D-Kiss is going to be healing for orison-like levels after the heal reduction... unless you're pushing 3+ enchants. Draw conditions is far more reliable than Spotless... The only reliable enchantment is vigorous spirit, because if you use patient-->D-Kiss then you have 2 cast time, whereas vigorous is meant to stay on. Healing Seed is terrible also, I don't see why anyone wouldn't just d-shot the crap out of it, bulk strip it, or switch targets. Patient will be 80ish after reduction; 43+25x on d-kiss. You could just run Healing Burst @14 and do much more, d-kiss needs 4 enchants...

Kunder · Mar 30, 2011, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

Healing Burst works :P

14Heal/8Prot/9DF/8tac (or 13Heal/11DF/7prot/7tac)

Burst
Patient
cure hex
Seed (PVE skill)...instead of infuse
SoA (instead of guardian...because mobs don't swap targets.)
Prot spirit (instead of sig of rejuv)
draw
IaU (instead of balanced stance)

http://www.gwpvx.com/Build:Mo/P_WoH_Jade_Quarry
http://www.gwpvx.com/Build:Mo/any_WoH_Monk
http://www.gwpvx.com/Build:Mo/W_GvG_Healing_Burst

It's just that in GvG you delegate one monk to prot, so you need to slot more prot instead of just Guardian+draw AND you have a dedicated party healer in the form of a Restor rit flagrunner or Healing Burst.

True, I should have been a bit more concise. PvP is a different environment from PvE. There is absolutely no assurance that PvP builds are at all suited for PvE (e.g. flag runners), and even when they are they are most likely unoptimal by some order of magnitude.

JDRyder · Mar 31, 2011, 03:13 AM // 03:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Anyone using PvP builds (and sub par ones at that) in PvE is setting themselves up for failure and/or mediocrity. I hope you don't mind, but I immediately ignore any references to "top 10 gvg" guilds because there are only about 5 gvg guilds anyways.

Generally speaking A WoH Pvp build and WoH Pve build only have like one skill difference, the PVP version of this build uses COP instead of Healing seed. You should try it if you get in a group running orders or something, it actually doesn't do half bad.

Outerworld · Mar 31, 2011, 08:49 AM // 08:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

Generally speaking A WoH Pvp build and WoH Pve build only have like one skill difference, the PVP version of this build uses COP instead of Healing seed. You should try it if you get in a group running orders or something, it actually doesn't do half bad.

Actually a woh PvE build ideally should have PS/Aegis in it.

cataphract · Mar 31, 2011, 09:45 AM // 09:45

Or both.

12 chars

JDRyder · Mar 31, 2011, 10:54 AM // 10:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outerworld

Actually a woh PvE build ideally should have PS/Aegis in it.

PS as in Pat or prot spirit? If pat I'd disagree, I prefer RoF or Dkiss. If Prot its been a while since I've even watched a GVG due to lack of interest in the boring meta, monks don't use Prot spirit anymore? Regardless its still only 2 skill difference between a Pve and PvP WoH monk.

Outerworld · Mar 31, 2011, 03:23 PM // 15:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

PS as in Pat or prot spirit?

I meant prot spirit.

Xenomortis · Mar 31, 2011, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

PS as in Pat or prot spirit? If pat I'd disagree, I prefer RoF or Dkiss. If Prot its been a while since I've even watched a GVG due to lack of interest in the boring meta, monks don't use Prot spirit anymore? Regardless its still only 2 skill difference between a Pve and PvP WoH monk.

GvG WoH monks typically only have Guardian (or Pensive with all the derv trains) as a real prot. They tend to carry a self prot (Return, stances or whatever) and Draw Conditions.
The prot monk packs the rest (stronger Guardian, Shielding Hands, Aura of Stability, Aegis, sometimes Spirit Bond)

I don't see Prot Spirit anymore and there is quite a difference in skill selection for a GvG WoH monk and a PvE WoH hybrid monk; about 6 skills.

LifeInfusion · Mar 31, 2011, 06:31 PM // 18:31

Prot spirit is less useful in PVP on a prot monk, since @12+ prot Spirit bond will negate more damage unless the damage is over 140 (the highest will be 140 orb on 60 armor, or 170-180ish on a hammer warrior taking a high spec e-surge/shatter delusions/etc on Frenzy). The duration increase doesn't mean much.

Even a 12 spec Spirit bond from an ER ele mitigates 60-130 damage better than Prot spirit will. If you're only speccing a few points in prot like 6 or 8, Prot Spirit lasts longer @3+ prot and will mitigate more from high damage > 100.

green = net gain of health
yellow = less HP loss than Prot spirit , if max HP = 480
orange = less HP loss than Prot spirit, if max HP = 570