Curse

Xenomortis · Oct 07, 2010, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

I would say nothing can protect like we can and if I want to be biased in the Monk forum I will and I am not misinformed.

Give me a Monk prot bar that's more stable and as powerful (if not more powerful) than an ER Ele bar. Explain carefully and demonstrate why this bar is more powerful and stable and how it can keep an entire team alive even if it's the only backliner in anything other than the elite areas of the game without any defensive midline support.

If you do this, I will admit I was wrong and accept your claims. But you haven't provided anything, ever. This is why I long ago came to the conclusion that you're either a troll or just plain retarded and those two options are far from mutually exclusive.

Age · Oct 08, 2010, 12:09 AM // 00:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Give me a Monk prot bar that's more stable and as powerful (if not more powerful) than an ER Ele bar. Explain carefully and demonstrate why this bar is more powerful and stable and how it can keep an entire team alive even if it's the only backliner in anything other than the elite areas of the game without any defensive midline support.

If you do this, I will admit I was wrong and accept your claims. But you haven't provided anything, ever. This is why I long ago came to the conclusion that you're either a troll or just plain retarded and those two options are far from mutually exclusive.

Don't go starting flame wars and since you don't play Monk and this is the Monk forum have respect for those who do and I have never been a troll and as for your last remark.I would expect the from 10 year old that hasn't been told that is a bad thing to say even on the internet go say that in a mirror.I am not going to lower myself to your standards as I got higher standards.

btw I played Monk way back in beta in The Halls of Heros and did pretty well.

Here is a Monk with ER on it but I can come up with a better build and why use infuse when you can prevent it.

http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/5074/gw065.jpg

Xenomortis · Oct 08, 2010, 12:19 AM // 00:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

Here is a Monk with ER on it but I can come up with a better build and why use infuse when you can prevent it.

http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/5074/gw065.jpg

Eh? Why ER?
Do you expect to be taken seriously? My offer and challenge are serious - I will concede if you can demonstrate and explain how a Monk can beat an Ele at pure protting power in PvE. I can see no way this can be done, a Monk just doesn't have the energy management to sustain it. They may gain Aegis and SoA (two prots an Ele cannot afford to take), but they lose a lot.
Whatever you claim, whatever you state, needs backing up and it needs justification. Failure to do that renders anything you say meaningless.

If you can do better, then please do so.

Lanier · Oct 08, 2010, 12:28 AM // 00:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Eh? Why ER?
Do you expect to be taken seriously? My offer and challenge are serious - I will concede if you can demonstrate and explain how a Monk can beat an Ele at pure protting power in PvE. I can see no way this can be done, a Monk just doesn't have the energy management to sustain it. They may gain Aegis and SoA (two prots an Ele cannot afford to take), but they lose a lot.
Whatever you claim, whatever you state, needs backing up and it needs justification. Failure to do that renders anything you say meaningless.

If you can do better, then please do so.

Technically, a monk does have the e-management to run prot bars. ERs are just a lot easier to run as you can mindlessly spam your prots w/o regard to e-management. However, its is definitely possible to run a monk prot bar without running into energy problems. Im not saying prot monks are better than ER protters because prot monks can't spam infuse, but a prot monk, though he may have to actually think about managing his energy, can still work effectively.

So yea... basically im saying that prot monks are good but ER protters are better.

And why can't you fit Aegis or SoA into an ER bar? The bar I run on zhed always uses these two skills (along with ER, AoR, Life attunement, prot spirit, spirit bond, and infuse health).

Speaking of heroes, an ER is drastically superior to... well pretty much any monk or rit or n/rt healer or protter. Heroes just suck at maintaining their energy and they greatly appreciate the unlimited energy ER gives them.

Xenomortis · Oct 08, 2010, 12:41 AM // 00:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

And why can't you fit Aegis or SoA into an ER bar? The bar I run on zhed always uses these two skills (along with ER, AoR, Life attunement, prot spirit, spirit bond, and infuse health).

A hero can take it, because a hero just won't spam to get energy up.
A human though, needs his skill slots and can't afford a skill with a 2 second cast time and a 20 second recharge, especially when PS+SB will cover anything dangerous. SoA is more a luxury that the Monk can just casually bring, but the recharge is a nail-biter for an ER bar.
A human will be using PS almost on recharge, SB a lot and Infuse whenever it's needed. If he's running Protective Bond then a long cast time on something is dangerous.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

However, its is definitely possible to run a monk prot bar without running into energy problems.

Of course it is, but you lack the raw power the Ele has. With the simplicity of PvE, power goes first, utility second. If you disagree and claim that a Monk has just as much raw power output as the Ele, then I extend my challenge to Age, to you.

Age · Oct 08, 2010, 01:19 AM // 01:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Eh? Why ER?
Do you expect to be taken seriously? My offer and challenge are serious - I will concede if you can demonstrate and explain how a Monk can beat an Ele at pure protting power in PvE. I can see no way this can be done, a Monk just doesn't have the energy management to sustain it. They may gain Aegis and SoA (two prots an Ele cannot afford to take), but they lose a lot.
Whatever you claim, whatever you state, needs backing up and it needs justification. Failure to do that renders anything you say meaningless.

If you can do better, then please do so.

I would use something better and we don't need an elite to heal ourselves back up either in fact a Monk can go without elites.We do have e management if you knew anything about the class.I am not going to give you the answers here as you can figure it out yourself.I am justifing myself here.

btw this is being taken way off topic.

The Drunkard · Oct 08, 2010, 01:48 AM // 01:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

We do have e management if you knew anything about the class.I am not going to give you the answers here as you can figure it out yourself.I am justifing myself here.

btw this is being taken way off topic.

I'd love to hear how exactly monks have the e-management needed to outperform eles with ER. The two only viable non-elite monk skills I've used are blessed sig and castigation sig. Blessed sig only works with bonds, which the ER can outshine, and castigation forces the monk to spec into smiting prayers, and as a result forces them to either go dedicated prot, healer, or a shitty version of both.

There are three reasons why monks aren't completly replaced in PvE by an ER or a N/rt; Insta-rezzes, seed of life, and a non-gimmicky skillbar. The insta-res of UA means that a shitty team can stay alive for much longer (since they are constantly rezed with full health and energy). Seed of live is the strongest party heal currently in the game in the hand of a competent player. Monks also do not have to rely on Soul reaping or constantly reapplying bonds when shattered, but their usefullness ends there. They cannot add two dimmensions of gameplay (damage, heal, prot) without seriously gimping their skillbar.

I'd love to see a decent skill bar for a monk that isn't WoH for mallyx, and doesn't rely on UA.

Lanier · Oct 08, 2010, 04:25 AM // 04:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Of course it is, but you lack the raw power the Ele has. With the simplicity of PvE, power goes first, utility second. If you disagree and claim that a Monk has just as much raw power output as the Ele, then I extend my challenge to Age, to you.

There's no need to "challenge" me. I admitted in my previous post that ER's are better:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

So yea... basically im saying that prot monks are good but ER protters are better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

I'd love to see a decent skill bar for a monk that isn't WoH for mallyx, and doesn't rely on UA.

Im not sure whether you are talking about heroes or humans in your post, so i will address your post seperatly.

For heroes, energy management is always the biggest issue. That is the reason why n/rt's are used over rits in the first place. Fortunately enough, heroes also have an advantage in the department of energy management that humans do not have - an ungodly ability to interupt and, thus, abuse the large energy returns from power drain, leech signet, and tease. Now this comes no where near making up for the unlimited amount of energy available to ER's. ER is broken - plain and simple - and no amount of soul reaping or rupting can make up for that. However, n/rts are really not any better at energy management than rits or monks using power drain, leech signet, or waste not want not. I really don't know why n/rts are so popular, because their heals arn't as potent as primary rits (who also have spawning power to extend WoW, SLW, RW, or any other weapon spell you bring) or monks with their divine favor. In response to your wish for a decent monk skill bar:

Word of Healing
Dwayna's Kiss
Patient Spirit
Healing Seed
Cure Hex
Divine healing
Power Drain
Waste not, want not

... for a pure healing bar (12 healing/10 divine/8 inspiration split)

Im not going to bother with a monk prot bar since i never use hero prot monks due to ER protters being superior. I also don't bother with hybrid builds on heroes because this hero is intended to be used with a pure prot hero (either ER or prot henchmen) anyway, and a 4 way attribute split obviously isn't recommended.

On humans, energy management becomes less of a concern. Humans can use Gole well (whereas heroes suck with it) and humans have access to selfless spirit. Plus, humans are, in general, a whole lot better at passive energy management than heroes are. Because I like running prots, and because there is no need to go /me for energy management, I pretty much always run a hybrid build on myself (unless im just playing around with other builds for fun). Since you asked for decent monk builds, here are my favorite monk builds intended for human use:

Word of Healing
Patient Spirit/Dwana's Kiss
Signet of Rejuvenation
Shield of Absorption
Protective Spirit
Aegis
Dismiss Condition
GoLE/Holy Veil

Zealous Benediction
Gift of Health
Reversal of Fortune
Shield of Absorption
Protective Spirit
Aegis
Dismiss Condition
GoLE/Holy Veil

I generally prefer the ZB bar b/c i really like Gift of health and reversal of fortune. There isnt room for either skill in the WoH bar due to the necessity of bringing signet of rejuvenation to make up for not having the extra energy management from ZB. Plus, the ZB bar allows me to spec higher in protection magic to boost the power of my prots. Note that I typically run these builds with an ER hero as the second backliner in my party.

Now once again, I do not believe any of the above builds to be superior to an ER, but I do believe them to be superior to n/rts... and I definitely seem them all as "decent" monk builds, which is what you asked for.

maxxfury · Oct 08, 2010, 01:49 PM // 13:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

- I will concede if you can demonstrate and explain how a Monk can beat an Ele at pure protting power in PvE. I can see no way this can be done, a Monk just doesn't have the energy management to sustain it. They may gain Aegis and SoA (two prots an Ele cannot afford to take), but they lose a lot.
Whatever you claim, whatever you state, needs backing up and it needs justification. Failure to do that renders anything you say meaningless.

If you can do better, then please do so.

Ill have a quick stab at this

even tho i wasnt challenged :P and im pretty sure you WONT beat an ER directly at its "own strengths" and you have to take a slightly different path, so imo this has a LOT of power by its self (happily vanq/mission ect as sole backline) and works almost flawlessly with an ER partner. obviously has its OWN weakness's and strengths but meh :P

AP
Selfless spirit*
Seed of life
Divine boon
Prot spirit/spirit bond
Spirit bond/Soa
reversal of fortune
Aegis

12+1+1 prot
10+1 divine (+3 hat swap if you like)
8 deadly

Gives you a perma aegis, cheap PS, an always ready Seed and Soa and a good power reversal of fortune! this covers a lot of the pressure that an ER cant handle easily via small prots + seeds /w boon, and aegis...and also has the ability to spam spirit bond OVER the partner ER's prot bond (yes the er does this too

) and cover stripped bonds with PS..and has pretty mental energy managment from multiple easy procs of AP and selfless spirits cost reductions... and providing the area isnt riddled with hex busters and you dont play bad, this goes longer and harder than jesus :P been using a variant of this since i first capped AP in first few days of factions, cos boon prot was sexy then too :P

*can take divine spirit over selfless, and respec more divine > prot.

X CDH X · Oct 08, 2010, 03:20 PM // 15:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

There's no need to "challenge" me. I admitted in my previous post that ER's are better:

Im not sure whether you are talking about heroes or humans in your post, so i will address your post seperatly.

For heroes, energy management is always the biggest issue. That is the reason why n/rt's are used over rits in the first place. Fortunately enough, heroes also have an advantage in the department of energy management that humans do not have - an ungodly ability to interupt and, thus, abuse the large energy returns from power drain, leech signet, and tease. Now this comes no where near making up for the unlimited amount of energy available to ER's. ER is broken - plain and simple - and no amount of soul reaping or rupting can make up for that. However, n/rts are really not any better at energy management than rits or monks using power drain, leech signet, or waste not want not. I really don't know why n/rts are so popular, because their heals arn't as potent as primary rits (who also have spawning power to extend WoW, SLW, RW, or any other weapon spell you bring) or monks with their divine favor. In response to your wish for a decent monk skill bar:

Word of Healing
Dwayna's Kiss
Patient Spirit
Healing Seed
Cure Hex
Divine healing
Power Drain
Waste not, want not

... for a pure healing bar (12 healing/10 divine/8 inspiration split)

Im not going to bother with a monk prot bar since i never use hero prot monks due to ER protters being superior. I also don't bother with hybrid builds on heroes because this hero is intended to be used with a pure prot hero (either ER or prot henchmen) anyway, and a 4 way attribute split obviously isn't recommended.

On humans, energy management becomes less of a concern. Humans can use Gole well (whereas heroes suck with it) and humans have access to selfless spirit. Plus, humans are, in general, a whole lot better at passive energy management than heroes are. Because I like running prots, and because there is no need to go /me for energy management, I pretty much always run a hybrid build on myself (unless im just playing around with other builds for fun). Since you asked for decent monk builds, here are my favorite monk builds intended for human use:

Word of Healing
Patient Spirit/Dwana's Kiss
Signet of Rejuvenation
Shield of Absorption
Protective Spirit
Aegis
Dismiss Condition
GoLE/Holy Veil

Zealous Benediction
Gift of Health
Reversal of Fortune
Shield of Absorption
Protective Spirit
Aegis
Dismiss Condition
GoLE/Holy Veil

I generally prefer the ZB bar b/c i really like Gift of health and reversal of fortune. There isnt room for either skill in the WoH bar due to the necessity of bringing signet of rejuvenation to make up for not having the extra energy management from ZB. Plus, the ZB bar allows me to spec higher in protection magic to boost the power of my prots. Note that I typically run these builds with an ER hero as the second backliner in my party.

Now once again, I do not believe any of the above builds to be superior to an ER, but I do believe them to be superior to n/rts... and I definitely seem them all as "decent" monk builds, which is what you asked for.

I'm going to agree with you that WoH hybrid is an extremely good bar but unfortunately most people dont seem to realise that now and just use UA..

I remember loads of people using the ZB prot heavy bar and it working well too but not seen it for a while.

The version of the WoH Hybrid bar I run is...

Patient Spirit
Word of Healing
Seed of Life
Shield of Absorption/Shielding Hands
Protective Spirit
Glyph of Lesser Essense
Aegis
Resurrection Chant

IMO conditions/hexes are rarely a problem so I dont usually take skills to cover these - Though if there was an area that was heavy with these I would replace Resurrection Chant/Seed of Life/Shield of Absorption/Shielding Hands.

Res scrolls can cover the Resurrection Chant and monks 'shouldn't really' have a res

Age · Oct 08, 2010, 10:10 PM // 22:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

I'd love to hear how exactly monks have the e-management needed to outperform eles with ER. The two only viable non-elite monk skills I've used are blessed sig and castigation sig. Blessed sig only works with bonds, which the ER can outshine, and castigation forces the monk to spec into smiting prayers, and as a result forces them to either go dedicated prot, healer, or a shitty version of both.

There are three reasons why monks aren't completly replaced in PvE by an ER or a N/rt; Insta-rezzes, seed of life, and a non-gimmicky skillbar. The insta-res of UA means that a shitty team can stay alive for much longer (since they are constantly rezed with full health and energy). Seed of live is the strongest party heal currently in the game in the hand of a competent player. Monks also do not have to rely on Soul reaping or constantly reapplying bonds when shattered, but their usefullness ends there. They cannot add two dimmensions of gameplay (damage, heal, prot) without seriously gimping their skillbar.

I'd love to see a decent skill bar for a monk that isn't WoH for mallyx, and doesn't rely on UA.

It can't be said in words about our e management as it is something learned. I know of few who can keep a team alive in Mallyx without those skills,Monk only need 2 skills to keep a party alive.No other class shines in PvP like the Monk does.

Lanier · Oct 09, 2010, 02:43 AM // 02:43

I forgot to mention seed of life in my bars

Typically, Dismiss Condition is the skill I replace with SoL, but occasionally I'll replace unnecessary prots in areas where they are less useful (ex: replacing prot spirit in areas with pressure rather than power-hitters).

Klance · Oct 10, 2010, 06:34 AM // 06:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

It can't be said in words about our e management as it is something learned. I know of few who can keep a team alive in Mallyx without those skills,Monk only need 2 skills to keep a party alive.No other class shines in PvP like the Monk does.

Energy management is hard-coded, in the absence of e-management skills, you are limited to 4 energy per 3 second gain.

If you are using monk/s to push red-bar, then they are most likely to run dry quite quickly (especially if you want them to also run hex/condition removal).

Of course if you have a strong midline (SY spam/wards/communing spirits - which naturally exist when fighting Mallyx which is a unique case since you CAN'T run prots, and you are solely reliant on midline defence) then monks solely pushing red-bar will not have energy problems.

But if you wish to run mitigation in your backline via monk prots (the good ones costing 10e) then a ER elementalist is unquestionably superior.

But this is besides the point. Speaking to UA alone strictly, it is mechanically worse than WoH/HB both for hybrid and red-bar purposes.

But the value of UA in a TEAM increases as the overall skill level of the team decreases. As mentioned before bad teams will invariably overextend/overagro/have midline failures, and UA serves the invaluable function of getting people back up instantly on full HP and energy and stops the snowballing effect of one death leading to a team wipe.

Coast · Oct 10, 2010, 06:53 AM // 06:53

i like ua, its a better version of bip

Xenomortis · Oct 10, 2010, 12:14 PM // 12:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klance

Speaking to UA alone strictly, it is mechanically worse than WoH/HB both for hybrid and red-bar purposes.

When HB boosts Heaven's Delight and Divine Healing, I'll care about it.
Since those two skills along with Heal Party and Seed of Life are all I really want my monk for now (anything else and I roll a different profession) I'll go with the option that boosts more of them (although I was wrong earlier, UA doesn't boost SoL).
If my Monk could actually fuel Heal Party frequently, then I might care that HB reduces it to a 1 second cast time, but I can't so I don't. And a 1/2 second cast time on DKiss isn't really going to change the outcome of anything.
The res function is more like a bit of icing that helps justify the reduced energy gain.

LifeInfusion · Oct 10, 2010, 09:03 PM // 21:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

When HB boosts Heaven's Delight and Divine Healing, I'll care about it.
Since those two skills along with Heal Party and Seed of Life are all I really want my monk for now (anything else and I roll a different profession) I'll go with the option that boosts more of them (although I was wrong earlier, UA doesn't boost SoL).
If my Monk could actually fuel Heal Party frequently, then I might care that HB reduces it to a 1 second cast time, but I can't so I don't. And a 1/2 second cast time on DKiss isn't really going to change the outcome of anything.
The res function is more like a bit of icing that helps justify the reduced energy gain.

I was thinking about this more with all the UA vs HB discussion.

I used UA with Divine Healing and I'm not generally a fan of it even though the energy management is better. It's hard to get people to stay in the earshot range if people are kiting, so positioning becomes paramount. With Heal Party, Protective was Kaolai, and Light of Deliverance it's radar range.

With Healer's Boon + Heal Party it is also a pain in the neck, since you need to Glyph of Lesser Energy to make it not blow up your energy for 12 seconds ...15energy/(4/3)=11.25seconds to regain the 15 energy. Heal Party after Glyph is still 5 energy (glyph itself is another 5 energy so the savings is only 5 energy unless you cast 2x which means a savings of 15 energy), but heals more than UA + Divine Healing will at 14 DF (90). So UA pushes ahead and if you have 16 DF, the heal output of Divine Healing (1.6*60=96 at 15, 1.63*63=102.69 at 16DF) is more efficient than Heal Party even after Glyph. (5 energy for Divine Healing = 5 seconds under UA due to 3 pips)

With Auspicious Incantation, Heal Party gets disabled 8-10 seconds, which isn't that terrible. But it's an enchantment and it requires 20 energy unlike 10 for Glyph (you can swap to energy set to have the 15 energy handy if needed) for casting Heal Party.

The thing is, Heal party is still 2 seconds (glyph = 1 , heal party under healer's boon is another 1 second). DKiss is nice under HB since you can catch a spike faster but most times you will be casting Patient Spirit anyway, unless the HP is that low.

That's why I love WoH hybrids. They don't need all the "precasting" and preparation of glyphs and watching to see if your enchant is down. Instead, you watch the enemies to pre-prot and spike heal. Selfless spirit works wonders if your entire bar is 5 energy except for maybe Aegis and Prot Spirit. The only thing about WoH hybrids is you don't have a fast res unless you use Vengeance or a touchhrange Restore Life.

Lanier · Oct 10, 2010, 09:59 PM // 21:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

The only thing about WoH hybrids is you don't have a fast res unless you use Vengeance or a touchhrange Restore Life.

Thats not really a big deal though, since it shouldn't be the monk's job to rez anyway.

Cuilan · Oct 12, 2010, 04:52 PM // 16:52

Not fond of UA myself for it being used as a lazy monk skill, as I'd rather be kept alive.

Infuse recharges so well, Prot Bond reduces so much, and GDW can prevent skills with knock down and even increase damage. ER is spammy, but it's also very mechanical and can be very tiresome for some players. Anyway, in before...

SPIRIT OF TRANQUILITY!!!

Ghull Ka · Nov 29, 2010, 04:10 PM // 16:10

I was honestly, and seriously floored.

I mean, I've done a good bit of DoA lately... 4x armbraces worth. I understand the value and the reason to bring a UA monk on that team. Death happens IMMEDIATELY sometimes when those glaive-spammers rush into a giant pack of demons. UA in an elite mission = sensible.

But when we saw a monk LFG'ing for Gyala Hatchery last night (we were doing the hard mode for my guardian track) and picked him up, and he asked us if we wanted him to be "UA or HB?" -- I really didn't know what to say.

People actually use UA builds OUTSIDE of elite areas? Just for missions? You would want a UA monk for Zen Daijun or Gyala Hatchery or Sunjang District?

What the heck, people? Why would you need to recruit a monk designed for instant rezzing to do an easy peasy small potatoes storyline mission?

We told him to run whatever bar he wanted to run. It was only Gyala Hatchery for Grenth's sake.

o.O

Xenomortis · Nov 29, 2010, 04:12 PM // 16:12

http://www.gwpvx.com/Build:Team_-_UA/HB_Mimicry

Yeah, PvX has a lot to answer for.