Curse

Valkyries · Aug 28, 2006, 09:00 AM // 09:00

Hi everyone,

I really love the Illusion chain in PVE for Mesmers, and Im playing around with some ideas but I haven't REALLY found one I like quite yet. Domination has some good traits as well but I ALWAYS played Dom so I really wanted to try something different.

So I was wondering if you guys had some builds to share for a really great Illusions based PVE build.

This is what Im running at the moment.

Ineptitude (E)
Clumsy
IoR
Conjure Phantasm
Power Drain
Drain Enchantment
X (depends on situation)
Rez

This is working pretty decently so far but I think its lacking something! I find that its good but just not great.

I want my Mesmer to be great. LOL

I also have Crippling Anguish and IW Capped so far for Elites but I can probably get more. Im considering a Migraine Build but I don't have Ring of Fire yet (still at THK) but that is the next step.

Does any of you guys have a build you normally tend to use and would like to share??

Thanks in advance!
Valk

TeeGee · Aug 28, 2006, 05:17 PM // 17:17

If you are playing illusion mesmer in PVE then consider two awesome spells:

Sympathetic/Ancestors Visage - people tend to use it only for farming but this is awesome protection spell. If you place it on someone that is being attacked it means no attack skills from monster AT ALL!

Soothing Images - basicaly same thing but in offenisve hex rather than defensive enchant. Easier to use, easier for monsters to remove, and without energy denial. Still very good pve spell - can stop whole melee mob from being threat.

I strongly recommend not using any degen like Conjure phantasm, CA or Migraine - it just not works in pve where monsters has loads of health and die rather fast anyway.

Avarre · Aug 29, 2006, 08:44 AM // 08:44

There are two polar extremes in taking an illusion path - damage and degen. You can blend them from there, as well.

Pure Degen structure:

16 illu
10 fc
10 insp

Energy Drain/Mantra of Recall
Mantra of Persistance
Conjure Phantasm
Images of Remorse

From there, you can apply constant degen over a wide range of targets, decreasing the time that a selected target requires to drop. The other skills would mainly be energy management skills, interrupts, etc. SV is a good skill as well but only when the tanks are highly effective, as scattered aggro wastes it.

Your objective is to degen every target in sight. The net result of this is when a target is selected by the team, it has already sustained a portion of damage and thus dies faster, decreasing the overall health on the entire enemy group.

The other common style is damage, same stats.

Ineptitude (may include epidemic for blind spread)
Clumsiness
occasionally Phantom pain for the DW.
Images of Remorse (best illu degen skill ever)

This build tends to be stronger against smaller groups, where point-damage is more effective as the battles are shorter. It also has the added benefit of being able to spread blind from epidemic over a melee cohort. Your objectives would be to cause damage on melee attacks primarily, while the group focuses on nuking casters.

Both are viable, both work. You can combine the two in any way you like, as I said those are extremes. They also only have 4 skills (a build core if you wish), which allows you to tweak them heavily.

Valkyries · Aug 29, 2006, 09:24 AM // 09:24

Hey guys,

Thanks for the great comments!!

Honestly never really thought of SV as a big option... not sure why...

Well I really like the second core build that Avarre posted.

So I am thinking something like this

Ineptitude {E}
Clumsiness
Images of Remorse (agreed, best degen skill ever)

Conjure Phantasm (I prefer this to PP but maybe I should rethink that. we shall see)
Power Drain
Leech Signet (Good for interupting TU, Healing Sig, etc)
Epidemic/Mantra of Persistence (Not sure yet, I have to play with them both). Res Signet

Thus far Epidemic gets the nod but I think MoP is also excellent with so many Illusion hexes in the build. I also am not sure how to squeeze SV into the build...?? Its so hard with Mesmers to fit in everything you want. With my Warrior I know EXACTLY the skills that will be used, almost each and every time. Mesmers are so versitle and have so many options. Its awesome!!

How does this look? anything you would change?

Avarre · Aug 29, 2006, 12:08 PM // 12:08

If you can balance your energy well, it can work. Persistance gives you a hugely greater effect (you can choose to shift stats around to something like 9fc 15 illu 12insp to get a higher persistance), and can actually save you energy from removing a need to recast - it also adds a harsh cost of 15e and really needs something to counter it, which I don't find in P-drain alone.

I've never been a large fan of epidemic myself, a good tank doesn't need the blind really and therefore the main time I care about it is for caster survival - where epidemic's low aoe would make the blind have a minor effect (kiting, mobs scattered, etc).

Leech signet could possibly be changed to drain enchant, spirit of failure, even inspired hex for a slight increase in energy return. I don't like the giant recharge or the fact there's no return on non-spell skills, which generally aren't pivotal to interrupt.

Valkyries · Aug 29, 2006, 12:24 PM // 12:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

If you can balance your energy well, it can work. Persistance gives you a hugely greater effect (you can choose to shift stats around to something like 9fc 15 illu 12insp to get a higher persistance), and can actually save you energy from removing a need to recast - it also adds a harsh cost of 15e and really needs something to counter it, which I don't find in P-drain alone.

I've never been a large fan of epidemic myself, a good tank doesn't need the blind really and therefore the main time I care about it is for caster survival - where epidemic's low aoe would make the blind have a minor effect (kiting, mobs scattered, etc).

Leech signet could possibly be changed to drain enchant, spirit of failure, even inspired hex for a slight increase in energy return. I don't like the giant recharge or the fact there's no return on non-spell skills, which generally aren't pivotal to interrupt.

Thanks for the awesome Feedback Avarre...

How does something like this look??
9 fast casting
15 illu
12 insp

Ineptitude {E}
Clumsiness
Images of Remorse
Conjure Phantasm
Power Drain
MoP
X - still not sure what should go here.... something with Emgmt... Drain Enchant is looking good but I find its sometimes hard to use it and its just a waste. Ins Hex is decent but not fantastic. SoF is ok but they are usually dead before I get real benefit from it. Ineptitude is almost too good

Res Signet

Is this better?? Just need to find one good EMgmt and Im all set.... lots to choose from, thankfully!

Avarre · Aug 29, 2006, 12:35 PM // 12:35

Should work fine, just remember that there's no way you'll be able to constantly spam conjure + ior (15 energy every 5 seconds, and no elite management), so you'll have to be very selective of targets to degen, while hammering melee/ranger targets with Clumsitudes.

As I said, killing the frontline while nukers kill the healers is one tactic, or degen on the casters to drop them faster... depends on the quality of the rest of the group and the quality of the mob (some are alot better at healing). Generally, playing such a build your targets are the melees because you can drop them easily, with -9 degen-spam and your three damage spells totalling in at just under 300 damage.

Drain enchant and power drain are both very conditional, spirit of failure might be useful in that any area with no spells to drain (power drain), would probably have lots of stuff to put spirit of failure on (melees, noncasters etc). Just make sure you put it on something you aren't killing

Edit : Good targets for SoF are generally ranger mobs, which are targetted later and can spam attacks more constantly, and anything that has +attackspeed (Shadow Warriors, Afflicted Warriors) or multiple target hitting (Shadow Rangers, Jade Knights, etc).

Valkyries · Aug 29, 2006, 01:12 PM // 13:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Should work fine, just remember that there's no way you'll be able to constantly spam conjure + ior (15 energy every 5 seconds, and no elite management), so you'll have to be very selective of targets to degen, while hammering melee/ranger targets with Clumsitudes.

As I said, killing the frontline while nukers kill the healers is one tactic, or degen on the casters to drop them faster... depends on the quality of the rest of the group and the quality of the mob (some are alot better at healing). Generally, playing such a build your targets are the melees because you can drop them easily, with -9 degen-spam and your three damage spells totalling in at just under 300 damage.

Drain enchant and power drain are both very conditional, spirit of failure might be useful in that any area with no spells to drain (power drain), would probably have lots of stuff to put spirit of failure on (melees, noncasters etc). Just make sure you put it on something you aren't killing

Edit : Good targets for SoF are generally ranger mobs, which are targetted later and can spam attacks more constantly, and anything that has +attackspeed (Shadow Warriors, Afflicted Warriors) or multiple target hitting (Shadow Rangers, Jade Knights, etc).

Awesome!!

Ill try to use SoF then for my second choice. Then I should be all set and ready to roll.

I plan to use this in ABS as well. So I can probably just swap out MoF and the res for Drain Enchant + Distortion... and I should be fine I think!

Thanks a bunch again!
Valk

Avarre · Aug 29, 2006, 02:10 PM // 14:10

Just since you mentioned ABs, my degen build for AB was;

16 illu
10 insp
10 fc
rest to shadow arts, Me/A

Energy Drain {E}
Conjure Phantasm
Images of Remorse
Drain Enchant
Imagined Burden
Mantra of Persistance
Return
Ether Feast

Stupidly indestructable, with snare, good energy management, degen (which actually works well in AB where not that many seem to have selfheals or reliable monks under pressure), a 100+ hp selfheal of your own, return (if you have a known teammate, you can teleport to him constantly, which dominates most AB melee'ers).

Doesn't have the direct damage capabilities but the amount of chaos you can spread, combined with snares to halt warriors, assassins, touchies, and whatever else comes your way, as well as selfheal and kiting skills make it a pretty solid setup. Your main threat is casters, which can be degened and healed against, and there's always teammates to lay into them

Hollerith · Aug 29, 2006, 03:10 PM // 15:10

I use

Ineptitude
Clumsiness
Spirit of Failure
Images of Remorse
Accumulated Pain
Epidemic
Power Drain
Rez

PvE is too fast for degen, so I just spike mobs and spread conditions.

Robin_Anadri · Aug 29, 2006, 04:49 PM // 16:49

I like Mantra of Persistence + Illusion of Pain. Laying -10 degen on with one cast is nifty. Sure, they get health back if they survive the duration... so make sure they don't survive the duration.

XvArchonvX · Aug 29, 2006, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Here's what I use with my mes in PvE:

Images of Remorse
Conjure Phantasm
Clumsiness
Defensive skill of choice (Ether Feast, Distortion, Illusion of Weakness)
Inspired Hex
Energy Tap
Energy Drain {E}
Rez

Full attributes in Illusion, then spread the rest in Fast Cast and Inspiration

Valkyries · Aug 29, 2006, 07:51 PM // 19:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robin_Anadri

I like Mantra of Persistence + Illusion of Pain. Laying -10 degen on with one cast is nifty. Sure, they get health back if they survive the duration... so make sure they don't survive the duration.

Holy hell thats an awesome idea!

Why didn't I think of that.

So, if I understand that right... that is a full 18 seconds with Insp. set to 12 and a full -10 degen on one target. Thats just mean... even in PVP, its almost like the Monk absolutely HAS to remove it(also I assume they won't get the health back if its stripped??) Can someone please confirm if this is how it works?

Also another question. It says when Illusions of Pain ends... if you recast it does that count as ending and reapplying or is it continued so as long as you can cast it every 5-6 seconds they never get the health back. I assume they get the health back for each time you cast it, because if not I think it would be too broken!

If someone knows the answers to these that would be great. I wanted to check on Guildwiki but it is down atm

Edit:

Just found the answer. I guess I had it backwards

The healing effect matches the health lost after 10 seconds. As such, it is imperative to use a Cover hex to ensure that Illusion of Pain is not too easily removed before its time, otherwise your target will 'effectively' be healed.

So this means that if they strip the hex, they WILL gain the health back... which is a shame but there are plenty of nice cover hex's for Illusions.

Recasting the hex on your target will remove the older hex and not trigger the healing.

This is just madness... with MoP You can basically ALWAYS have this up and going.... they should be dead in no time.

Great idea Robin. Ill surely try this out. A big fan of little combos such as this one. Excited to see how it will work!

Hella Good · Aug 29, 2006, 08:25 PM // 20:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robin_Anadri

I like Mantra of Persistence + Illusion of Pain. Laying -10 degen on with one cast is nifty. Sure, they get health back if they survive the duration... so make sure they don't survive the duration.

Illusion of Pain does not give health back if the hex is renewed. If you use MoPersistence + IoPain, IoP will recharge just in time for you to renew the hex, resulting in no healing on the target (granted you have suffiecient points in both Inspiration and FC). Another thing that you can do is you can use Glyph of Renewal, so that you can spread IoP around. Having several targets at max degen is quite some pressure. Good nrg management will be needed.

LPGamble · Aug 29, 2006, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Note this is for the early game!

Cronic reroller here, but I have taken 6 builds up to level 9 , and so far Mes/Ele was the easiest to PVE level.

Sink points in Illusion then split fast cast and Domin and 3 or so in fire

1) Aura of Restoration - Keep this up all the time -Heals everytime you cast
2) Conjure Phantasm - Health degen uses your Illusion
3) Empathy - Health hit every time they attack
4) Firestorm - If to many get to close
5) Ether Feast - Emergency heal
6) Energy Tap - vs casters or if energy low
7) Revive
8) Backfire - vs casters

Basically keep Aura up for healing yourself
Noncasters stick 2 and 3 on them and let them kill themselves
Casters - start with 8 then 6 then 2
If they zerg you lay a firestorm on them
If the fight is prolonged use some taps

Valkyries · Aug 29, 2006, 09:59 PM // 21:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hella Good

Illusion of Pain does not give health back if the hex is renewed. If you use MoPersistence + IoPain, IoP will recharge just in time for you to renew the hex, resulting in no healing on the target (granted you have suffiecient points in both Inspiration and FC). Another thing that you can do is you can use Glyph of Renewal, so that you can spread IoP around. Having several targets at max degen is quite some pressure. Good nrg management will be needed.

I noticed this as well... but there is a slight problem.

You REALLY will need to have timing almost perfect.

With MoP + IoP at 12 Insp. thats about 18 seconds for the Hex. The cooldown is 15 seconds on IoP and its a 3 second cast. So with max Insp. it really doesn't leave you barely any time what so ever. Even with the rest of the points into FC, you still have to be almost perfect in counting how long that hex is going to last. Doing it on multiple targets would be even harder.

A few good things to note.

The IoP Hex is only counted towards the 10 seconds at -10. So the additional 8 seconds of degen is still there. So this is good.

Second, you need a good cover hex for IoP so they can still take the damage. Im thinking of Phanton Pain/Accumulated Pain. Then, when the hex runs out, they get a deep wound, AND they are still taking the -10. You can basically time it so that they finish at the same time and I think that can virtually kill almost any target.

Something like this.

Cast PP
Cast MoP
Right before MoP wears off, cast IoP. This will last for 18 seconds. Health degen will still be at -10 (max).
PP wears off, Deep Wound applied (basically 100 dmg in one shot). At -10 degen for that long I dont know anything that can take that sort of punishment.

Its like facing against a Mursaat without being Infused. I know how long I last in that situation and its about a 5 second fight, let alone the 18 seconds that I would have to last.

The only issue I see here is removal. You would really need something VERY fast as a cover hex to keep on top of this. Its even fairly Energy safe. 15E + 10+ 10+ which is 35 E + 5E cover hex. 40 Energy is a nice bit but with 4 pips and good energy mgmt I dont think it would be too tough to run. You would almost need to change the Elite to something like Energy Drain, so you can do the combo, then drain on the next target and start all over again. Or if not you'd really need 2-3 Energy Mgmt skills so you can repeat the process.

I think the timing would be tough but I think its an interesting idea. Just needs to be toyed with. Also note that casting MoP you have a few seconds regen before you really need to go ahead and cast IoP. I think the key is making sure that PP ends slightly before IoP to inflict the deep wound and them have 3-5 seconds of pure Degen. On top of that mixing in a 20% recharge wand/focus/staff you may even get lucky and have it really recharge fast. This is just icing on the cake.

So just an idea... Anyone have any thoughts??

Also note: With full Enchanters, a +5 Energy Sword/Axe, and a Illusions 20% offhand (with +12E) Gives you a grand total of 74 energy (hopefully I added that correctly. Im assuming Mesmers start out with 40 Energy as a base).

This will give you loads to work with and I think you would find that your energy pool is sticking around much much more!!

Hella Good · Aug 29, 2006, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valkyries

you need a good cover hex for IoP

That's precisely why I have issues with the skill. A cover hex is by definition something cheap, with low recharge, no more than 1 cast and preferably (but not necessarily) something that gives you a benefit when it ends. The classic cover hexes I use are Mind Wrack and Parasitic Bond. However, neither really makes much sense in an MoP/IoP build.

I attempted using IoP/PB/Cume Pain, which was alright but I felt that after max degen and deep wound on this one target, I was completely useless (3 hexes + MoP, + Res = 3 skills left on your skill bar and those have to cover survivability and nrg management somehow, so not much room for any other damage hexes). I would've tried GoRenewal but Eles dont have a single hex that I can use as cover and that would mean you have to use Mind Wrack, and that would mean it would be wise to do a degen/e-denial kinda thing (I hate using a cover hex, just to have something to cover).

I rly feel awkward with this skill. Least when you max degen them with combo hexes the recharge is low and you can spam the hexes around. With IoP you gotta focus on a single target and thats kinda boring. Plus someone always brings like Bleeding or Poison or something and it becomes counter productive with IoP. I think the only thing IoP is good for is a finishing move on a running target or something. Least all attempts I've had so far of making it worthwhile as an all around degen hex have failed.

Wonder if you can use some Ranger skills to get this to work better.

Themis · Aug 30, 2006, 12:31 PM // 12:31

My favorite Illusion PVE build is :

Base skills:
Ineptitude
Conjure Phantasm
Images of remorse
Accumulated pain
Rez (usually Resurrection Chant)

Optionnal skills (choose 3):
Epidemic (very often)
Complicate (no points in Dom needed)
Clumsiness
Ether feast
Ward against melee
Drain enchantment

I find that Spirit of failure is a bit useless in PvE, due to its high casting time and the fact that enemies don't last long enough. So it rarely provides you more energy than what it costs, anyway. Except for blinded targets.
IoP is too dangerous in PvE, CP+IoR costs 5 more than IoP but they deal more damage and their damage is there and can't be removed. I don't see any advantage of MantraofP+IoP versus CP+IoR. Really, not a single one. Do you ?
Moreover, in Pve, teams often have a break (Monks/Eles need breaks), so energy is not a problem : inspiration is not really needed, imo.

SnipiousMax · Aug 30, 2006, 01:44 PM // 13:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

Here's what I use with my mes in PvE:

Images of Remorse
Conjure Phantasm
Clumsiness
Defensive skill of choice (Ether Feast, Distortion, Illusion of Weakness)
Inspired Hex
Energy Tap
Energy Drain {E}
Rez

Full attributes in Illusion, then spread the rest in Fast Cast and Inspiration

This is alot like a build I like to run. Instead of E Tap, I run Drain Enchant. And instead of either clumsiness or a defensive skill I run Mantra of Persistance.

Valkyries · Aug 30, 2006, 03:59 PM // 15:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Themis

My favorite Illusion PVE build is :

Base skills:
Ineptitude
Conjure Phantasm
Images of remorse
Accumulated pain
Rez (usually Resurrection Chant)

Optionnal skills (choose 3):
Epidemic (very often)
Complicate (no points in Dom needed)
Clumsiness
Ether feast
Ward against melee
Drain enchantment

I find that Spirit of failure is a bit useless in PvE, due to its high casting time and the fact that enemies don't last long enough. So it rarely provides you more energy than what it costs, anyway. Except for blinded targets.
IoP is too dangerous in PvE, CP+IoR costs 5 more than IoP but they deal more damage and their damage is there and can't be removed. I don't see any advantage of MantraofP+IoP versus CP+IoR. Really, not a single one. Do you ?
Moreover, in Pve, teams often have a break (Monks/Eles need breaks), so energy is not a problem : inspiration is not really needed, imo.

well.. you do have a point, the only thing is IoP lasts much longer (20 seconds) compared to the other two. And you have to cast the other two right after each other to get the same degen. In addition you only get -9 instead of -10 but that isn't a huge issue... So no, there isn't a big issue, and I agree the CP+IoR Combo is much safer... Still the other combo has a neatness factor to it. I think the big problem with it is the cover hex. Thats the issue.

Anyways, aside of that...

Ward against Melee is a nice option I didn't really think about... I think Ill try to work that into my build. I just find its hard to fit in things as it is.

A lot of people have recommended Epidemic.. I have yet to try it... but my question is, is Epidemic really worthwhile with only having one condition to spread? Its almost like you must use Ineptitude + Epidemic right away to make it worthwhile. I can see this more in PVP where u may have other characters spreading conditions. Poision is a pretty big one. Then everyone in the area will get hit with it and hit hard. But just for blind?? I just don't know if this is worthwhile enough for me to use it. :|

Why complicate? Why not leech Signet if you are looking to interupt any skills?? Apart from the obvious recharge time I don't see any benefit.

Thus far this is what Im liking with my Mesmer

As the core

Ineptitude {E}
Conjure Phantasm
Images of remorse

Energy Mgmt
Leech Signet/Drain Enchantment
Power Drain

The rest
MoP
Clumsy

And a Res

So looks like:
Ineptitude {E}
Conjure Phantasm
Images of remorse
Clumsiness
Leech Signet/Drain Enchantment
Power Drain
MoP/Ward against Melee is a nice choice here as well.
Res Signet

this seems to be pretty good. Although I dislike the high casting of MoP but I think Ill fix that by going with full Enchanter armor and a +5 E Weapon + Offhand. That'll give me 70 + Energy and still have 4 pips... should be plenty.