Curse

Dragannia · Sep 23, 2006, 12:34 PM // 12:34

Extend Conditions is bugged.

Cast a condition on someone, then Extend it. IT DOESN'T END! XD

At 3 mins and 50 seconds my friend and I stopped timing the Weakness from Enervating Charge.

Hella Good · Sep 23, 2006, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Oh, Spell Thief isnt really one of the most stable things you can play but I am a huge fan of versatility and having fun. And Spell Thief offers both. Surely, it's rather chaotic, but hey, we are Mesmers, we utilize chaos. :-) It probably only works in RA and AB but that's good enough for me. I wish thevery spells had a bit more synergy- that is they know another thief spell has already stolen a skill and they steal another one, rather than being completely random, but it's funny. Moments like killing that Ele with Meteor Shower or stealing the Blood Renewal of a Necro to heal myself are well worth it. Sometimes you dont worry too much about practicality, you just have some fun. Spell Thief is that- don't hope to always win, but be certain to always have a good time.

Themis · Sep 23, 2006, 06:55 PM // 18:55

I've been busy for the past days and when i'm back to gwg forums... wow !

First, i'd like to thank Terra Xin for great work about copying all skills' descriptions.

I did the same thing on another forum, i know it's long and hard work...

Then, here are my impressions about the skills:
- Life bond prots and tainted N are dead and buried. Mirror is just one skill in a team. Boon prots are over, equally.
- There will be a "before" and an "after" Nightfall. I doubt any serious PvP build can be made without any Nightfall skills. They're just too powerfull.
- Ether+DrainDel drain 8 energy every 11secs! And they're not even elite!
- Now it should be easy to make a signet build. A bit too easy, even.

TeeGee · Sep 24, 2006, 02:06 PM // 14:06

Bonds were pretty dead before but Mirror might kick Tainted necroes from meta. Although 25 energy might be too steep for poor messy.

It's obvious that there will be "pre" and "post NF. Even if new skills wouldn't be so powerfull (new monkie skills - ouch.)

Ether + DrainDel is nice but not much better than usual surging (no to mention damage). I guess that Ether will be used more as cover hex - it's awesome at that.

Signet builds will be only gimmicks - same as now. New skills doesn't make them much better anyway.

Still no comments on Tease? I can't believe that noone tried it.

What if... · Sep 24, 2006, 02:06 PM // 14:06

My Observations:

- Something going to have to be done about hypochodria or fragility, for obvious reasons.
- ether phantom + drain delusions is alot of fun
- Wastrel's Demise and Wastrel's Worry work well in tandem with other shut down skills.
- Frustration looks better than migraine

I'm looking forward to using these new skills, they've more obvious uses than the majority of the factions mesmer skillset in my opinion.

Hella Good · Sep 24, 2006, 04:31 PM // 16:31

I don't see myself using any of the new elites tho... that makes me a bit concerned. Sure the non-elites are great but if we pull back the elite rating thread I doubt the NF ones will even get a rating above avg. A lot of stuff that sounds good but is not (Visions of Regret, Hex Eater Vortex, etc.) and a lot of stuff that simply doesn't impress me. Nothing comes any close to PD or Expell Hexes in terms of usablity. Some new chant removers which are ok but to be honest the Necro NF elites that handle enchantments are way better. Even Sig of Illusions which is fun and all isn't really all that usable because of how thevery spells overlap. And Symbols of Inspiration is outright ridiculous. Yea, there is a few regular skills that are amazing but the elites are not worthwhile.

Dragannia · Sep 25, 2006, 12:09 AM // 00:09

Agreed. There are heaps of modifications which CAN make the new elites worthwhile. Making Hex Eater Vortex, for instance, 5 or 10 energy to cast. Simple Thievery should be steal ANY skill, not just non-spells. Visions of Regret...I dunno about that, doesn't seem usable in PvP terms. If it were non-elite it would be okay.

HolyHawk · Sep 25, 2006, 01:17 AM // 01:17

The bright side of Simple Thievery is that it could steal, eviscerates, signets in general, including ress; I'm not sure on elite forms, do they count as skills?

Hella Good · Sep 25, 2006, 05:56 AM // 05:56

I tried several of the elites, they are horrible. Even the ones that actually sound good in theory. Least we get all these wonderful non-elite skills (I can't get over how good some of those are). Here is what I suggest gets changed in these elites to make them worthwhile.

Enchanter's Conundrum:
For 10 seconds, target foe casts Enchantments 100% slower. When this Hex ends, that foe loses all Enchantments.

Power Flux:
If target foe is casting a spell, that spell is interrupted and for 5...10 seconds, that foe has -1..3 Energy degeneration.

Simple Thievery:
For 10...30 seconds, one random non-Spell is disabled for target foe, and Thievery is replaced by that Skill. The Skill can be used at that foe's attribute level.

Visions of Regret:
For 5..17 seconds, target foe takes 30...102 damage whenever that foe uses an attack skill.

Symbols of Inspiration
cost: 5, recharge 20
For 5..13 seconds, the next time you use a Signet, it recharges instantly and you gain 1...8 energy.

Air of Disenchantment:
cost: 15
For 10 seconds, target foe and all nearby foes cast Enchantments 10...82% slower. When Air of Disenchantment ends, it removes one Enchantment from each affected foe.

Extend Conditions
recharge: 10

Tease:
For 20 seconds, Skills used by target touched foe take 20...84% longer to recharge. This skill ends if you attack.

Sig of Illusions:
cast time: 1

Hex Eater is I think fine.

TeeGee · Sep 25, 2006, 06:54 AM // 06:54

Agreed in almost 100%

New elites are crappy - have fun value for first few runs but that's it.

Generally I don't like what ANert devs are doing to mesmer lately. I guess they want it to be Interrupter/Degener. Now Rangers are almost more "mesmerish" than mesmers itself (no nerf on debil shot O.o). Mesmers see less and less use in all forms of PvP and new elites will certainly not change that.

Too bad... I wonder if mesmers were actually that overpowered to treat them like that.

Dragannia · Sep 25, 2006, 11:01 AM // 11:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by TeeGee

Agreed in almost 100%

New elites are crappy - have fun value for first few runs but that's it.

Generally I don't like what ANert devs are doing to mesmer lately. I guess they want it to be Interrupter/Degener. Now Rangers are almost more "mesmerish" than mesmers itself (no nerf on debil shot O.o). Mesmers see less and less use in all forms of PvP and new elites will certainly not change that.

Too bad... I wonder if mesmers were actually that overpowered to treat them like that.

Uh...Mesmers are even more powerful now with the new skills. The Elites have nothing to do with it, but skills like Hypochondria and its affinity with Fragility (whether this is a bug is debatable), Spiritual Pain, Mirror of Disenchantment and skills like those, are the ones which will make the difference. Mesmers still have a huge place in the metagame; as Hex removers, enchantment removers and supplementary spikers. With the new gank-based metagame, lots of teams are using Mesmers for ganking too, which are, frankly, faster and more efficient at ganking than Rangers are (compare the set up time of Barbed Arrows and Poison arrow, and if you want, Toxicity, with Conjure Phantasm and Images of Remorse).

@ Hella good

I think Hex Eater Vortex is a bit expensive for an Elite. If it cost 10 it would be decent.

TeeGee · Sep 25, 2006, 12:23 PM // 12:23

Quote:

I think Hex Eater Vortex is a bit expensive for an Elite. If it cost 10 it would be decent.

Agreed - still no one would use elite version of shatter hex. Frankly noone uses non-elite in PvP, although it's awesome PvE skill.

Mesmer aren't any more powerful than before - cause they were left behind comparing to new professions. They got some nice skills for existing builds, but nothing great/new/refreshing. FE: ether phantom is good cover hex but mass hex was viable without it. SP can spike nicely but so can EBurn and (especially) Shatter Ench. Actually I wouldn't drop any of theese two cause they are more versatile, and spiking with 3 skills is not really spiking.

What I mean is that mesmers should get some entirely new possibilities with their new elites (once again - compare it to what monk got - there will be many new builds now). New elites are only expansions of already existing skills (like ShatHex -> Hex Eater, A Thievery -> Thievery) which don't get much use anyway. Other elites are just funny, gimmick skills with no real use. With new professions, new builds and possibilities for old classes there could be no place fo messys in teams. Especially that such tendences are seen already. Rangers tend to push mesmers out (NR/tr, debil shot, interrupts, magebane strike, Toxicity). If mesmer will stay spike/hex(ench) managment then it will be replaced by paragons and rangers who can do basically the same thing (and even more) and aren't squishies.

The only new skill that could give mesmer new place in team is Mirror, but it costs steep 25 energy. And bonds are dead anyway so it's only counter to builds with Tainted necroes (which are not that hard anyway).

With this and lately tendence to nerf domination line spells other than interupts, mesmers are seen less and less. I'm not complaining - I'm observing a fact (which doesn't mean I'm happy with what I see).

Don't get me wrong - I don't think it's some mesmergeddon -people will still play mesmers on smaller scale. Even if only reason for that is cause someone in their team likes to play mesmer more than something else. Also we will still see them in hex overload teams (which is simple and somewhat primitive). Still I fear the moment when I will have to kick messy from my team's build cause it's not as effective as X. Actually I had such proposals from my guild before NF skills came out. Now I fear I will have to agree with them.

Hella Good · Sep 25, 2006, 04:00 PM // 16:00

Lets just compare Mesmer elites usefulness to say Necro elites usefulness (NF-wise). Necro elites are incredible, wonderful skills that complement good non-elite skills. A few need a tag of tweaking and 1 or 2 are situational but on the whole Necros got it yum yum with NF- Ravenous Gaze (needs a lil bit of tweaking but is otherwise massive health stealing damage), Corrupt Enchantment (this skill outperforms any degen in the current metagame in terms of overall cost/damage efficiency), Sig of Suffering (simply incredible finishing move on a hex heavy build), Tattered Bonds (altho not versatile this skill has it's place and usefulness to counter chant spammers), Contagion (great elite for farming), Jagged Bones (hands down one of the best new elites), Order of Undeath (just think about the dps... enough said), Reaper's Mark (this skill is a Conjure Phantasm that last 30s!!!, but costs 5nrg, and gives you as much nrg as a Offering of Blood if the foe dies, waaaay to go). Depravity and Toxic Chill are the only 2 elites that are so so but STILL good.

We have nothing like that... not ONE of the new elites is rly worth a rating above avg, and most barely even make it that far. If the new metagame is going to involve a lot of enchantments then at least the 2 enchantment-related elites should be powerful. Enchanter's Conundrum should not only slow the casting of chants but it should remove all when it ends, and maybe do damage instead if there is no chants on target. Air of Disenchantment needs a bigger area, adjecent foes in an extremely unefficient area for PvP, and I doubt that this skill would matter anyhow in PvE. These 2 skills should at least measure up to the effectiveness of Expell Hexes in handling hexes.

Visions of Regret has a great potential, too, now all they need to do is remove the stupid adrenal requirement and switch it to attack skill requirement. If they do that, this skill will be one of the best Physicals Hate skills in the game.

And yes, it is all about the elites. Surely we have all these skills but what do we base our builds on? These elites dont even command enough respect to be the centerpiece of a build. And if they are telling us that we should just keep on using things we used before, with a little bit of twitch for NF, I'm not impressed, really.

BaconSoda · Sep 26, 2006, 01:38 AM // 01:38

Immune Deficiency could be a way of unorganized groups with a mesmer to collect conditions and then send them to everyone with epidemic.

just bringin that up, sincew we seem to need a use for it.

Dragannia · Sep 26, 2006, 12:23 PM // 12:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hella Good

Lets just compare Mesmer elites usefulness to say Necro elites usefulness (NF-wise). Necro elites are incredible, wonderful skills that complement good non-elite skills. A few need a tag of tweaking and 1 or 2 are situational but on the whole Necros got it yum yum with NF- Ravenous Gaze (needs a lil bit of tweaking but is otherwise massive health stealing damage), Corrupt Enchantment (this skill outperforms any degen in the current metagame in terms of overall cost/damage efficiency), Sig of Suffering (simply incredible finishing move on a hex heavy build), Tattered Bonds (altho not versatile this skill has it's place and usefulness to counter chant spammers), Contagion (great elite for farming), Jagged Bones (hands down one of the best new elites), Order of Undeath (just think about the dps... enough said), Reaper's Mark (this skill is a Conjure Phantasm that last 30s!!!, but costs 5nrg, and gives you as much nrg as a Offering of Blood if the foe dies, waaaay to go). Depravity and Toxic Chill are the only 2 elites that are so so but STILL good.

We have nothing like that... not ONE of the new elites is rly worth a rating above avg, and most barely even make it that far. If the new metagame is going to involve a lot of enchantments then at least the 2 enchantment-related elites should be powerful. Enchanter's Conundrum should not only slow the casting of chants but it should remove all when it ends, and maybe do damage instead if there is no chants on target. Air of Disenchantment needs a bigger area, adjecent foes in an extremely unefficient area for PvP, and I doubt that this skill would matter anyhow in PvE. These 2 skills should at least measure up to the effectiveness of Expell Hexes in handling hexes.

Visions of Regret has a great potential, too, now all they need to do is remove the stupid adrenal requirement and switch it to attack skill requirement. If they do that, this skill will be one of the best Physicals Hate skills in the game.

And yes, it is all about the elites. Surely we have all these skills but what do we base our builds on? These elites dont even command enough respect to be the centerpiece of a build. And if they are telling us that we should just keep on using things we used before, with a little bit of twitch for NF, I'm not impressed, really.

I agree, but honestly, nothing will replace Mesmers until they dredge up another FC class. Mesmer non-elites are great, however, nothing really game-changing, but complementing existing Mesmer skills well. Except Spiritual Pain, which is rather good.

Siddious · Sep 26, 2006, 04:23 PM // 16:23

Too me Visions Of Regret seems like a very useful spell in PVE, but I do agree that in PVP it does not have as much use.
I do agree that necro's got a way better selection of elites though. Thankfully mesmers aren't about the elites but are mostly about the non-elites and we have some awesome ones in NF.
All in all I don't think we got bad elites and they are better than the factions elites (apart from Expel Hexes and possibly Phychic Distraction).

Hella Good · Sep 26, 2006, 04:28 PM // 16:28

It's not a matter of being replaced, altho already other prof are taking on traditionally Me roles (R started doing ED with Deb Shot and have always been better at interrupts, Necros and Sins chant management, etc.). I am simply saying that I expect reasonable buffs to these elites. I can see some of them as very useful if only they are tweaked a bit. Namely Enchanter's Conundrum (lose all enchantments if enchanted, or take damage if not), Air of Disenchantment (nearby instead of adjacent foes), and Visions of Regret (attack skill instead of adrenal skill). If at least those 3 skills are made into wonderful elites (which- mind you- does not requre major changes) I'll be happy with what we get in NF, otherwise, I don't see any of these elite skills ending up on my skill bar, not one of them.

Master Fuhon · Sep 27, 2006, 01:33 AM // 01:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terra Xin

Playing a SoI build will be entirely possible, but you're playstyle is going to be the most difficult to master compared to most mesmer builds, it's not a simple matter of predicting interrupts or casting diversion at the right time, you're gonna have to have a third eye to keep track of what goes on around you, so that what you steal is what you expect to steal.

Arcane Mimicry on your Ritualist with Attuned Was Songkai. You will have an unweidly casting time for Arcane Mimicry --> Signet of Illusion --> Attuned Was Songkai (2+2+2+aftercasts) as well as a 25 energy cost (assuming you didn't glyph of lesser energy Arcane Mimicry

), but you could have 45 seconds of energy management (item holding issues included). So much downtime, however, makes it seem like a PvE build. This is probably the skill combination that is limiting the true use of the skill, with regular skill stealing.

SoI looks like a gimmick, unfortunately.

Edit: Fast Casting helps...

Gedrand · Sep 27, 2006, 12:31 PM // 12:31

While I'm not the most experienced mezzer out there, I'm very excited about Signet of Illusions. I can already tell that it will be my new favorite skill!

It's not only going to power the current mimicry lineup, but it's also adding the ability to bring along a big helper spell and play some interesting 'chameleon' builds. Having that level of versatility is definitely going to be worth using the sig as my Elite, and I think the idea really goes along with the image of the Mesmer.

I'm looking forward to doing something like I used to do with my Elementalist when I used Water. I'd like to play a 'utility' sort of role using Signet of Illusions followed by Blurred Vision for a 21 second period of 50% miss, and follow it up with Spirit of Failure to gain back a large amount of that energy while you go on to other things. It may not end up being as awesome as I'm thinking, but it's an interesting idea I plan to pursue.

Some of the big Elementalist spells could prove very handy to bring along. Heck, many primary attribute spells from other caster professions could be very interesting: Aura of Restoration for a nice bit of healing, for example, and if you're already playing a thief/mimic/Illusion-heavy setup, you're not going too far out of your way.

I might be wrong on that, but I think it will be a fun skill to play with. Also, I'm not PvP oriented, so I unfortunately can't comment on that aspect of it.

Terra Xin · Sep 27, 2006, 10:20 PM // 22:20

Visions of Regret:
For 5..17 seconds, target foe takes 30...102 damage whenever that foe uses an attack skill.

No, you would most definately have to reduce the damage on this to make it around about twice as powerful as Empathy, but equally so, the damage would occur half as often. At least this way, "weakness" may play a slightly more important role.