Curse

XvArchonvX · Nov 27, 2006, 01:30 AM // 01:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hella Good

I begin to think you have never played GoR/SP or used the new skills extensively in PvE. These arguments are getting further and further from what can actually be seen in practice.

I've ran several variations of the SP type builds and my SF ele still outdoes my mesmer hands down. I still enjoy using my mesmer, but he's just not as useful as my other characters of each class nine times out of ten in PvE.

HolyHawk · Nov 27, 2006, 02:57 AM // 02:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by nSin

I have been spending ages trying to make my PvE assasin work, trying out every build out there. They do not work in PvE, they just don't . I've been trying every single assasin build posted, and sure, they can do some nice damage, heck they are even capable of AOE damage, but the numbers are laughable, and the things you need to do to achieve the point of just "moderate" damage is crazy compared to both the dervish and wariror class who by far outclass the assasin in PvE - in just about every area.

In that perspective I'd agree with you that the mesmer is a caster version of the assasin, or the assasin the melee version of the mesmer. I still have my PvE versions of both my Mesmer and Assasin, I guess I'm just hoping that they might get fixed.

I advise you to try out the deadly arts tree, it works wonders for pve. Remember that assassins have 4 pips, and with a staff they can be a caster, which is good for the deadly tree. There are plenty of combinations you can do with secondary as well. Hint, look at the signets, to start with, and figure it out =P

nSin · Nov 27, 2006, 10:19 AM // 10:19

I've used both SP+GoR and SP+MoR, I find the second option to be a lot more viable because it works on your other skills aswell. While GoR and SP together works well, it basically just cuts the cooldown in half for 5 energy (whereas MoR does it for all spells for 5 energy more, but that's not the point now) so a SP every 15 seconds really does not compare to SF, or even a Meteor Shower that is echoed or MoR'd. You can have a skillbar full of things that do AOE damage with Ele's and all of them, while maybe 75% as effective against high armor, still, with a lower cooldown and higher quantity. Granted there are 5 open skillslots for the mesmer, but there's still the problem of energy management.

As for Assasins and Deadly Arts - I've tried some DA builds, but I wasn't impressed at all, it looked more like a gimmick build then anything else, it's mostly single target damage, and for that I would do more damage with my Daggers - and still be outclassed by the warrior and dervish. I can't really argue with "Deathly Arts builds" because there are so many skills in there that it's hard to tell which you are referring to. But from my experience, it's single target damage that is comparable to Ritualist channeling damage and really isn't all that effective when compared to other classes.

Katari · Nov 27, 2006, 04:00 PM // 16:00

[skill]Assassin's Promise[/skill]
Great fun with SP and Mistrust.

It's also e-managment!

Toutatis · Nov 28, 2006, 12:54 PM // 12:54

My mesmer was my first real character, and he's the character I always come back to. And to the people who have said that mesmers are not quite as useful in PvE, I fully disagree. The mesmer isn't PvE unfriendly - it's player unfriendly. At least, it's unfriendly to players who want to understand things quickly. Other classes like elementalists and warriors are blatantly obvious and the basic strategy for using them can be picked up in an hour of playing, if not sooner. *Nothing* about mesmers is obvious, aside from the fact that some of the female armor looks like it was bought from Victoria's Secret.

Mesmers need an entirely different player mindset. When playing in teams, they need to ignore the targets that the rest of the team is picking and use as many of their chaotic hexes on as many different targets as possible in the shortest amount of time, making fast casting an attribute that in my opinion they couldn't possibly function without. While the rest of the team does the "real" damage and/or patches up the wounded, the mesmer is still flicking through targets, mesmerising the enemy into following the team's gameplan, and punishing any enemies who step out of line. So while the mesmer may not look like he's helping with focused fire, in reality he's holding the rest of the enemy group at bay to make life for the rest of the team easier.

And if you take the time to add up the indirect damage done through empathies, backfires, interrupts (the ones that do damage, at least) and degen, you'll find that the mesmer easily keeps pace with and can even surpass the direct damage of the elementalist.

And as a side note: I haven't bought Nightfall yet, and I haven't researched the new mesmer skills available in that campaign yet (I'm only running off Prophecies and Factions so far). I'm hoping that the new Nightfall skills won't disappoint me like a few of the Factions ones did.

Hella Good · Nov 28, 2006, 05:22 PM // 17:22

Don't set your hopes high, the new elites are pathetic to say the very least.

And MoR/SP does nothing but cut down the recharge in half, and that's not the point... the point is to dish out the damage AT ONCE. That is why GoR/SP is better, because in about 2seconds you have dished out about 200 armor ignoring to a single target and 150 to all nearby foes.

Meteor Shower is pathetic compared. No, it's not 25% reduction, high armor reduces Ele damage by a lot more. Everyone who plays Ele should know that. The only good thing about MS and the reason why MS has SP beat is the constant KD. That's really ALL. Damage wise vs a high-armor target GoR SP beats GoR MS on more than one dimension. And- again- you fight high-armor targets about 60% of the game.

I know this is for PvE, but if you take the time to actually watch some GvG, you will notice the now emerging Me spike that has Ele spike beat by being 1) armor ignoring, 2) having a lot more versatility than pure damage dealing. Me have it good spike-wise, because *doh* Me don't even have to build for spiking. You don't need GoLE, you don't need Fire Attunement, you don't need Glowing Gaze, all of which just to support your spike skill. All you need is SP and a way to fast recharge it. The rest of your skill bar can be devoted to whatever nastiness you wanna bring upon the mobs.

Shadwu · Nov 28, 2006, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hella Good

@Shadwu

E-surge is pathetic in PvE. You need the versatility of elites such as GoR and MoR. The damage Surge does is ignorable for taking up your elite slot. SP and Mistrust can easily outperform Surge.

Arcane Echo Energy Surge, then Auspicious Incantation and again Energy Surge.
Add energy burn and SP. ofc you can put mistrust into build, since its dom magic. There you got some dmg.

Hella Good · Nov 29, 2006, 05:10 AM // 05:10

And you just used up 3 slots and a lot of skill complexity to do double Surge damage?

Redfeather1975 · Nov 29, 2006, 06:07 AM // 06:07

Why get hung up on who does more damage.

Mesmers aren't really intended to be damage dealers.
They are somtimes damage negaters/dealers. You have so many ways to damage your enemy while denying them the ability to damage anyone else.
It's sadistic.

Katari · Nov 29, 2006, 06:22 AM // 06:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redfeather1975

Why get hung up on who does more damage.

Mesmers aren't really intended to be damage dealers.
They are somtimes damage negaters/dealers. You have so many ways to damage your enemy while denying them the ability to damage anyone else.
It's sadistic.

Yeah, but that realy dosn't mater as much in PvE. The only thing that really maters in PvE is damage.

XvArchonvX · Nov 29, 2006, 07:01 AM // 07:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katari

Yeah, but that realy dosn't mater as much in PvE. The only thing that really maters in PvE is damage.

qft. Mesmers may be awesome at shutting down opponents, but in PvE you are generally faced with waves of weak enemies. Even though shutdown can mess things up, it tends not to make a difference when it is single target shutdown in a surrounding of many enemies. Of course as I said before, there are definately exceptions where mesmers can make or break a team, but in general a mesmer just doesn't shine in PvE like they do in PvP.

Toutatis · Nov 29, 2006, 07:52 AM // 07:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

it tends not to make a difference when it is single target shutdown in a surrounding of many enemies

That's precisely why mesmers need to ignore any called targets and flick through enemy targets quickly. The faster you flick, the more enemies you hex and the more indirect damage piles up. Shutting down one or two targets at a time is useful, but so is spreading chaos through large groups. A mesmer can adapt to dismantle anything and everything that the game throws at them, if they get their skill bars right.

Kook~NBK~ · Nov 29, 2006, 08:52 AM // 08:52

A person can play a PvE Mesmer extremely well in so many ways it's not even funny. Turning an enemy's strength against him is a Mesmer's strong suit. Wanna make life miserable for a Melee class AI that's coming after you?

Empathy (baddie hurts himself)
+ Spirit of Failure (baddie hurts himself, but doesn't hurt you 25% of the time and gives you energy every time he misses!)
+ Sympathetic Visage (while baddie is hurting himself, and giving you energy, he's losing energy and adrenalin - along with any of his adjacent buddies - making his skill bar useless. Which means less damage that he can deliver to you!)

Now, whatever can be done with the other 5 skill slots? One option for one of those slots is Inspired hex, a wonderfully sadistic toy - that necro put suffering on you? Give him a taste of his own medicine. (Catching SS is a treat, especially if you're a Me/N with some [or a lot] of points in curses)

nSin · Nov 29, 2006, 09:42 AM // 09:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toutatis

That's precisely why mesmers need to ignore any called targets and flick through enemy targets quickly. The faster you flick, the more enemies you hex and the more indirect damage piles up. Shutting down one or two targets at a time is useful, but so is spreading chaos through large groups. A mesmer can adapt to dismantle anything and everything that the game throws at them, if they get their skill bars right.

Sure, if they have near unlimited energy aswell. It's hard to argue with "get their skill bars right" because there is no way to know what "right" is and what exactly you are referring too. I assume this is a skillbar that both solves cooldown issues and energy management issues that the Mesmer class has as I described in my first post? Perhaps you should actualy post a "skill bars right" build so I could test it out and argue on its usefulness.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kook~NBK~

A person can play a PvE Mesmer extremely well in so many ways it's not even funny. Turning an enemy's strength against him is a Mesmer's strong suit. Wanna make life miserable for a Melee class AI that's coming after you?

Empathy (baddie hurts himself)
+ Spirit of Failure (baddie hurts himself, but doesn't hurt you 25% of the time and gives you energy every time he misses!)
+ Sympathetic Visage (while baddie is hurting himself, and giving you energy, he's losing energy and adrenalin - along with any of his adjacent buddies - making his skill bar useless. Which means less damage that he can deliver to you!)

Now, whatever can be done with the other 5 skill slots? One option for one of those slots is Inspired hex, a wonderfully sadistic toy - that necro put suffering on you? Give him a taste of his own medicine. (Catching SS is a treat, especially if you're a Me/N with some [or a lot] of points in curses)

I hate to burst your bubble but a necro primary will do more damage and protection with just Spiteful Spirit and Sympathic Visage, in addition to that SS is AOE compared to single target Empathy, it's also useful on casters and necros have WAY better energy management then Mesmers do.

I don't think anyone would argue that the skills in the mesmer have its uses on their own. There are some awesome nifty skills that I would love to have on my team. But if people still think this topic is about that they need to reread the first post. It's the obvious flaws in the mesmer design that doesn't make them capable of using these skills as much or as effective as I would want them to, and because of that they aren't being as effective when compared to other classes.

*Darcy* · Nov 29, 2006, 04:25 PM // 16:25

OK, I don't PvP so I have no experience or opinion on mesmer use for team battles. But I've been playing a PvE mesmer for 9 months and most of this discussion has left me at a loss.

I've been under the impression that a mesmer's purpose was harrassment and punishment. A mesmer is designed to be a versatile profession, that with a slight change in skills can take on any foe. When was the profession ever meant to be a major damage dealer in PvE? We soften up enemies with our damage/degen spells, so that when the damage-dealers get to them, it takes less time to wipe them out. We interrupt/prevent/remove spells/hexes/skills that heal foes or damage our group.

Almost everyone in this thread is comparing mesmers to eles for damage dealing. I also haven't played an ele, but when grouped with one, have not been impressed. Great damage, if anyone was left to damage. Most PvE battles don't seem to last long enough for them to be overly effective. But that is not the point anyway. The point is an ele is designed to be a damage-dealer, with huge amounts of energy to fuel the damage spells. Their supposed lack of energy management seems to be caused by players overloading the skillbar with high cost spells.

You keep talking about secondaries. I seldom use my secondary skills in general PvE. I'm sure that more experienced mesmers know more about secondaries and when to use them than I do. But, except for IW, or one-off occasions, I find all I need in my primary skills.

Start looking at the damage prevention to your group and the weakening of foes your mesmer provides. Find a way to add that into your equations. But overall, if you want to play a damage-dealer character, then pick another profession. Don't take a class designed for one thing and try to make it something else.

Hella Good · Nov 29, 2006, 05:18 PM // 17:18

I was making a point that now Me have high AoE damage potential. This helps a ton in PvE, which is mobfest. Yes, a Me is not a damage dealer in the way an Ele is, but having the AoE spike skills does help a lot. And I was also making the point that not only can a Me dish out high AoE damage with the new skills, a Me can also build to counter casters, physicals, whathaveyou, all of this on one skillbar and w/o any unreasonable stretching of att points. The agrument about Ele damage came because I made a note that a Me can easily be as effective (if not more than a SF Ele). The point was just that- Me can dish out a lot of AoE damage AND at the same time provide utility to the group, an SF Ele can only dish out damage. And- as always- people got caught up on the damage comparison.

Me lacked the damage output that most other professions have in PvE. Things simply don't last long enough to be using utility skills on them, for the most part. And that gave Me a disadvantage, much like Sins, lack of powerful AoEs. Now things are changing with the AoE damage that fits perfectly well in a regular Domination build.

*Darcy* · Nov 30, 2006, 01:44 AM // 01:44

I'm back to apologize.

There I am always telling people how versatile a mesmer can be; how she can play any role required to fill out a group in PvE. Yet when you are arguing that same thing, that your mesmer can do as much direct damage as an ele and thus replace one in the group, I jump on you for changing the mesmer's basic role.

Keep it coming; I'll take notes.

Toutatis · Nov 30, 2006, 01:50 AM // 01:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by nSin

Perhaps you should actualy post a "skill bars right" build so I could test it out and argue on its usefulness.

Depends on what you want the particular build to do, and who else is in your party. Punishment? Shutdown? Interrupt? Degen? Anti-tank? Anti-caster? Hex manipulation? Enchantment manipulation? Energy/adrenaline denial? My experience of the game may be more limited but even I recognise that 8 skill slots is not enough to efficiently fill more than one combat role and provide for sufficient energy management at the same time.

When I say "getting the skill bar right" it means looking at your party, assessing their strengths and weaknesses, then looking at the enemies you plan to face and then assessing their strengths and weaknesses as well. Load up on at least 3 energy management skills that conform to the role you need to fill to be of any benefit to the team, the standard rez skill and self-healing skill, and then decide on what other skills you might need to better fill your role and alter your attribute levels to get your "build of the moment" operating as well as you realistically can.

It wouldn't matter what build I gave as an example. It would be a build customised to a unique team setup and combat zone, and testing it under a different set of conditions would likely end up in the build failing miserably.

pingu666 · Nov 30, 2006, 04:09 AM // 04:09

yeah getting the build right or wrong is critical, there is no safe build thats also effective whatever like for most other proffesions. eg my MM necro had the same skills and points setup after capping flesh golem till today (and beyond) (apart from cap sigs).

Hella Good · Nov 30, 2006, 05:21 AM // 05:21

I've run the same build since I took my Me to Elona. If you choose a versatile elite like MoR, GoR, or Echo, you can actually pretty much run an all around build that works vs just about anything.