Curse

XvArchonvX · Nov 26, 2006, 12:23 AM // 00:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by nSin

I actually do feel like I contribute to my team, however, since I have played all characters and all classes, when I compare the mesmers to a few other (core) classes, I do believe them to be outclassed when it comes to PvE.

I think you hit the nail on the head here. I've seen plenty of people posting their PvE mesmer builds here and arguing about how much success they've had with them, but as someone that has played a significant time with almost all other professions (I'm still a dervish/paragon newb

) I can say that much of what these builds do is done better by many other classes. Spiritual pain is nice, but a Searing Flames/Glowing Gaze build can outdamage any SP/Mistrust build easily, even with Assasin's Promise.

Don't get me wrong, a mesmer can really make a difference in a battle against a strong boss and is a REALLY strong member in some missions, but in general, they really don't contribute as much as other classes most of the time.

Just as the OP, I'm not saying that mesmers suck and I'm not whining about them, but I do think it is a fair move to give mesmers some sort of change to make the class a bit more PvE friendly.

Hella Good · Nov 26, 2006, 03:07 AM // 03:07

If this topic had been brought up before NF was released, then most certainly I would've agreed that Me are lacking in PvE. But NF did change a lot. It used to be that Backfire, Empathy, Cry, and Shatter Hex were the 4 staple PvE skills. Factions didn't add anything to this. But NF added 2 new PvE staples- Spiritual Pain and Mistrust. These skills are so incredibly powerful that I have dropped Backfire and Cry off my build, and replaced them with these new players. The result is a new kind of Mesmer that doesn't necessarily specialize in caster hate or physicals hate, and definitely doesn't build to simply shut down bosses (that as I already said can be achieved by using just one skill). This new PvE Mesmer is a much like a nuker but better, because the damage is armor ignoring, cheaper, and can easily be supported by disabling utility skills. And if you guys don't see how dramatically things have changed for the Me profession with this new and previously unavailable ability to Mesmer spike/nuke, I don't know what to say to convince you otherwise.

A Searing Flames Ele can do nothing else but cause burning and some semi-decent damage. Semi-decent because all Ele damage becomes vastly inferior once you start facing enemies with armor of 80+, which- mind you- happens fairly early in the game. Apart from spamming SF, a SF Ele can't do jack. A Mesmer spiker can do much more than just dish out tons of armor ignoring damage. A Mesmer spiker can toss in skills like Diversion, Empathy, Power Drain, Shatter Hex, etc., etc., etc., all synergizing very well. You thing a SF Ele can do that? Lets see: GoLE, SF, GG, Liquid Flame, Fire Attune, Aura of Restoration, Res... aww we have one spare slot... yay???

Mesmers have never been stronger in PvE than NOW.

XvArchonvX · Nov 26, 2006, 02:47 PM // 14:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hella Good

A Searing Flames Ele can do nothing else but cause burning and some semi-decent damage. Semi-decent because all Ele damage becomes vastly inferior once you start facing enemies with armor of 80+, which- mind you- happens fairly early in the game. Apart from spamming SF, a SF Ele can't do jack. A Mesmer spiker can do much more than just dish out tons of armor ignoring damage. A Mesmer spiker can toss in skills like Diversion, Empathy, Power Drain, Shatter Hex, etc., etc., etc., all synergizing very well. You thing a SF Ele can do that? Lets see: GoLE, SF, GG, Liquid Flame, Fire Attune, Aura of Restoration, Res... aww we have one spare slot... yay???

I'm sorry, but a SF ele still outdamages a mesmer easily. Spiritual Pain does good armor ignoring damage, but has a 30 second recharge. If you use GoR, then it is every 15 seconds. If you rely on Assasin's Promise, then there is the potential to recharge it faster, but will still not be every 2 seconds like SF. Even if the 119 damage is cut in half from armor, it still easily allows an ele to outdamage a mesmer since the ele can spam this constantly with Glowing Gaze at a rate faster than the 2 second recharge using Serpent's Quickness. Take into consideration that SF causes burning (14 armor ignoring damage per second) for up to 6 seconds and you have an additional 84 armor ignoring damage.

Diversion is nice, but useless against anything other than bosses in PvE. Empathy deals decent damage now, but is single target and can really be put on only one target at a time. Power Drain does no damage and is a conditional energy management skill that can be good to fuel a mesmer or completely useless depending on the enemies you face. Shatter Hex is even more conditional in that it requires you to face enemies that hex and also requires the ally that is hex to be in a position to where you can maximize damage output. If you don't face any casters, then Power Drain, Shatter Hex and Mistrust are useless.

I love mesmers and would never hesitate to invite one into my group, but they aren't damage dealers on the same level that Eles are under most PvE conditions.

Shadwu · Nov 26, 2006, 03:02 PM // 15:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hella Good

Btw why on Earth would you run E-surge in PvE???

For the dmg.

Carth` · Nov 26, 2006, 03:42 PM // 15:42

This is the reason why I deleted my beloved PvE mesmer. I can still create PvP mesmers whenever I want, and I love playing them, but in PvE, they just aren't all that useful. They have the curse of the sin (mine was also deleted), or should I say assassins have the curse of the mesmer? Either way, both of these classes seem designed for PvP play, where they really shine. In PvE, they seem flawed.

nSin · Nov 26, 2006, 05:11 PM // 17:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carth`

This is the reason why I deleted my beloved PvE mesmer. I can still create PvP mesmers whenever I want, and I love playing them, but in PvE, they just aren't all that useful. They have the curse of the sin (mine was also deleted), or should I say assassins have the curse of the mesmer? Either way, both of these classes seem designed for PvP play, where they really shine. In PvE, they seem flawed.

I have been spending ages trying to make my PvE assasin work, trying out every build out there. They do not work in PvE, they just don't . I've been trying every single assasin build posted, and sure, they can do some nice damage, heck they are even capable of AOE damage, but the numbers are laughable, and the things you need to do to achieve the point of just "moderate" damage is crazy compared to both the dervish and wariror class who by far outclass the assasin in PvE - in just about every area.

In that perspective I'd agree with you that the mesmer is a caster version of the assasin, or the assasin the melee version of the mesmer. I still have my PvE versions of both my Mesmer and Assasin, I guess I'm just hoping that they might get fixed.

the_jos · Nov 26, 2006, 05:15 PM // 17:15

@ Carth,

I don't think the mesmer or sin are flawed in PvE.
I'm still considering to delete my sin, but that's because my hench follow me when their target dies. I don't like to focus on two enemies at the same time.
Have not tried the flagging yet.
I use my Sin as caster-hunter (combo: bye enemy monk).
My mesmer is still usefull, but I have to know what kind of enemies and conditions are in the level. That's why my other characters scout the missions and quests and my mesmer just follows them.

And it's about picking your target.
It's no use casting a hex that lasts 15 seconds on an enemy that dies after 3. Called targets and targets that get AoE damage are not the right ones.
Unless it's a boss.

I think both mesmer and sin are more difficult to play right and require more thinking than other classes.
Furtermore, they are less suitable for PuG groups.
I can think of a couple of good combinations with Mesmers and Necro's / Ele's, but most of the time people want what they know.
That's why I can get in a group with my ranger running barrage, but the same skillbar with broad head arrow is often not accepted. Even if that would make the mission much easier.

Hella Good · Nov 26, 2006, 05:33 PM // 17:33

@XvArchonvX

That's why you use GoR as an elite, if it wasn't obvious enough. Sometimes you will face melee only mobs, sometimes you will face ranged ones, sometimes you will face a bunch of casters, but MOST of the time it will be some sort of a mix. GoR can accommodate that. And I don't bother using GoR to reduce SP recharge to 15s, I would clearly use MoR if that was the case. I simply use it to dual spike with SP, dual spike with Mistrust, dual spike with Shatter Hex, or dual Empathy, depending on the type of mob. It works like a charm.

And this isn't a matter of replacing SF Eles with Mesmers. I simply commented on the amount of damage you can dish out that isn't going to be anyhow limited by high armor. I personally am set up as I have pointed out and I use a SF Ele hero, a spiker Ranger Hero, a Death support Necro with skills such as Rottig Flesh and Putrid Explosion.

@Shadwu

E-surge is pathetic in PvE. You need the versatility of elites such as GoR and MoR. The damage Surge does is ignorable for taking up your elite slot. SP and Mistrust can easily outperform Surge.

@nSin

Sins have no AoE capabilities and AoE is all that matters in PvE. Killing the mobs, not single targets. If a Me builds for single target killing, of course, they not gonna see good results! But if a Me builds for dishing out tons of AoE damage, which the profession certainly CAN, things change dramatically.

knives · Nov 26, 2006, 06:28 PM // 18:28

Think about this:
Group going to FoW, where the monsters all have pretty high armor and life.

The team is:
5 Mesmers - GoR + SP + other nice spells
1 Tank (Dervish or Warrior whatever works)
2 Monkies

5x106(max sp damage w/ 16dom) = 530 damage in an instant to a single target, 395 to surronding foes. No time to scatter/run if an ele was used. Damage is all armor ignoring so no -1's should pop up.

Now since the mesmers used glyph of renewal, that damage doubles.

1060 dmg to a single target + 790 to surronding foes. Combine with skills like shatter enchant, shatter hex, and you do even more damage. This could do even more damage to a mob if each mesmer were to cast their SP's on different targets in the same area, spreading out the 1850 pts of damage equally among the mobs. The 30sec recharge isn't that long after a fight with a mob because monk energy needs to recharge as well, and you can use other skills such as mistrust or cry of frustration (for the beast skills) to do damage while waiting for the simple recharge.

I'm sure a group of 5 SF eles can do more than this, but since SF causes burning to non burning foes, and damage to burning foes, the cohesiveness of this to high armored monsters is reduced significantly. Also all the eles can do is damage, and what good is damage when you are dead? The mesmers can help negate some damage taken (via insp hex, shatter hex, mistrust, power spike etc) while dealing it too.

pingu666 · Nov 26, 2006, 06:35 PM // 18:35

assassins have some reasonable aoe damage, but ive played all professions apart from dervish in pve now, and the energy management on mesmers is bad now..

on my ele, 2 attunments means i can spam spells all day long, non stop, even air ones with there fast recharge (and a 20/20 wand and 20/20offhand)

ranger has various skills, but 8 expertise, barrage and a zealous bow and your energy will only sloowly eb away

my paragon hardly ever drops below 20energy

necro's primary is godly, and curses arguably better than some of the mesmer stuff, and for pure damage a minion master is hard to beat

as for the attuments being crap, well say lighting orb+attunment, 5/6energy per cast is returned, quickly that makes the mesmer vaguly non conditional stuff look crap. and thats just casting one spell...

nSin · Nov 26, 2006, 06:49 PM // 18:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hella Good

@XvArchonvX
@nSin

Sins have no AoE capabilities and AoE is all that matters in PvE. Killing the mobs, not single targets. If a Me builds for single target killing, of course, they not gonna see good results! But if a Me builds for dishing out tons of AoE damage, which the profession certainly CAN, things change dramatically.

Death Blossom -> Moebius Strike -> Death Blossom -> Moebius Strike -> Death Blossom etc..

It's probably the best PvE build I've used for my assassin but, it still doesn't compare to Warrior AOE (tripple chop/cyclone | hundred blades/sun and moon slash), or dervish AOE for that matter.

Redfeather1975 · Nov 26, 2006, 06:50 PM // 18:50

XvArchonvX, I think you are confusing people saying that mesmers can do a whole ton of things well with mesmers being the best at anything.
Mesmers are not/and will not be the best at damage...but they have so much in the way of versatility that it's really hard to peg what build a mesmer is going to bring to the table, because they have so many ways to adapt to there secondary profession and adopt a wide variety of roles.
I think I should have named my PVE mesmer 'Wild Card', because that's pretty much what he's turned into over time.

pingu666 · Nov 26, 2006, 07:24 PM // 19:24

wild cards are normaly crap, with the occasional really good one or two..

Marth Reynolds · Nov 26, 2006, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by knives

The mesmers can help negate some damage taken (via insp hex, shatter hex, mistrust, power spike etc) while dealing it too.

that is the main idea for the mesmer, it's a built in prottect/dmg class wich therefore shouldn't be compared to plain dmg dealers.

Mesmers do make it easier to survive, but then again the faster you kill the less likely they'll kill you, i'd say it's a matter of taste.

Redfeather1975 · Nov 26, 2006, 08:19 PM // 20:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by pingu666

wild cards are normaly crap, with the occasional really good one or two..

I'm sorry you feel that way. But we're talking about PVE and many find that the mesmer is very good at being that wild card for pure 'fun factor'.
The All Mesmer Team accomplishments help to illustrate that. It's just loads of fun!
If you are talking about the peeps who hang around PVE outposts saying "play your prof the way it's intended, you suck at this, because <prof here> is much better", then those peeps are taking this whole PVE video game thing way too seriously, and the whole fun of playing a game is tainted by even grouping with those players.

Sable Phoenix · Nov 26, 2006, 09:18 PM // 21:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

I'm sorry, but a SF ele still outdamages a mesmer easily. Spiritual Pain does good armor ignoring damage, but has a 30 second recharge. If you use GoR, then it is every 15 seconds. If you rely on Assasin's Promise, then there is the potential to recharge it faster, but will still not be every 2 seconds like SF. Even if the 119 damage is cut in half from armor, it still easily allows an ele to outdamage a mesmer since the ele can spam this constantly with Glowing Gaze at a rate faster than the 2 second recharge using Serpent's Quickness. Take into consideration that SF causes burning (14 armor ignoring damage per second) for up to 6 seconds and you have an additional 84 armor ignoring damage.

Diversion is nice, but useless against anything other than bosses in PvE. Empathy deals decent damage now, but is single target and can really be put on only one target at a time. Power Drain does no damage and is a conditional energy management skill that can be good to fuel a mesmer or completely useless depending on the enemies you face. Shatter Hex is even more conditional in that it requires you to face enemies that hex and also requires the ally that is hex to be in a position to where you can maximize damage output. If you don't face any casters, then Power Drain, Shatter Hex and Mistrust are useless.

I love mesmers and would never hesitate to invite one into my group, but they aren't damage dealers on the same level that Eles are under most PvE conditions.

This isn't necessarily true. If you look at my Illusion/Domination damage build, for example, I can use just five skills to outdamage any elementalist on single target spike damage. Ineptitude, Clumsiness, Phantom Pain+Shatter Delusions, with Spiritual Pain to top it off, will destroy a target up to level 22; and you have three free slots for other things, more damage or utility as you desire.

pingu666 · Nov 26, 2006, 10:57 PM // 22:57

if they attack twice..

i was refering to wildcards in motorbike sporting events

Redfeather1975 · Nov 26, 2006, 11:09 PM // 23:09

I don't know what you mean!

Grandpa, he's using terms I'm not familiar with. I think he's insulting you and Grandma.
Oh, you are in trouble now. Grandma is strong like hulk.

- RaWr

XvArchonvX · Nov 26, 2006, 11:51 PM // 23:51

@ everyone who replied to my comment:
My comparison was of a mesmer to a SF ele in terms of AoE damage. My point was that an ele easily outdamages a mesmer in AoE damage. A mesmer can do good single target spike damage, but in PvE enemies come in large groups and killing one enemy quickly doesn't mean a whole lot if you are sitting around waiting for energy regen or skill recharges before taking on the next enemy. PvE enemies are also a lot softer than PvP enemies (even the lvl 28 ones) due to their lowered intelligence and crappy skill sets.

My point is this: In PvE, a mesmer rarely does anything that another class can do better. Mesmers are excellent at shutdown, but shutdown is rarely needed in PvE. The utility aspects of mesmers is often either done better by a different support class (i.e. rangers for interuption or a secondary mesmer/monk caster classes with better energy management at hex/enchant removal). Quite frankly fast cast means little in PvE and Soul Reaping/energy storage with ele energy management skills often make an E/Me or N/Me a better choice when it comes to using mesmer skills.

Hella Good · Nov 27, 2006, 01:21 AM // 01:21

I begin to think you have never played GoR/SP or used the new skills extensively in PvE. These arguments are getting further and further from what can actually be seen in practice.

For my part, I've never been happier doing PvE as a Me. And- mind you- my character is well over 1 1/2 old. Versatility is something that is as valuable as being the best damage dealer, the best support caster, or the best w.e. else you can think of.