Curse

nSin · Nov 24, 2006, 01:41 PM // 13:41

Yes... this is likely another complain topic that everyone hasn't read a milion of times already. Lets start with this the topic I wanted to talk about is mesmers using their primary skills, I'm sure that you have Mesmers that can spam damage spells just as good as an elementalist and that they do extremely well in PvE, I'm sorry, I'm not interested in that. I want to be a Mesmer not an Elementalist in a pretty outfit.

That said, my mesmer is about to have his 1 year aniversary. He was the 4th character I have made. I've always enjoyed playing him in PvP and random arenas and I do good with him in those areas. It's the PvE setting where I'm having problems. Not to the point that I keep dying and making life impossible for my team. I actually do feel like I contribute to my team, however, since I have played all characters and all classes, when I compare the mesmers to a few other (core) classes, I do believe them to be outclassed when it comes to PvE.

My biggest issue right now lies in the Primary Attribute, fast casting. If I look at all other classes (except warriors), their primary attribute helps them with energy management, either because of the skills in this attribute, or because of the the inherent effect. A mesmer is different with this, they have their energy management in an attribute that is available to everyone: inspiration magic.

Now this brings several problems with it already, even though it could be fine in theory, but other classes will benefit from "double energy management" when they pick the Mesmer secondary, which was the reason that many of the inspiration skills got nerfed (like offering of blood). However, I really do think that in the process of this, the mesmer as a class got gimped (for PvE) because their primary form of energy management got a lot less useful. I'm saying for PvE here mostly because the ability to spam a lot of spells on a constant basis is important here, you want to complete everything as fast as possible.

If I would want to spend an elite spot, and 12 attribute points in a single attribute points for energy management I still only got mediocre energy management when I compare it to other classes. And even so, the options are limited, the only sure energy management is Mantra of Recovery and energy drain that - in my opinion - are still not as great as the energy management of other classes

edrain = 18 energy/25 = 072, little more then 2 pips
MoR = 25 energy/20 = 1.25, which is almost 4 pips

Granted, I need to use an elite slot for this, and it isn't inherented like with the Monk/Assasin/Dervish/Necro and Paragon classes. The other two classes have it different, the Ritualist doesn't have many expensive skills and a lot of the skills gives energy back when certain conditions are met, the need for energy management with ritualists is therefor not as high. And elementalists don't only have the attunements, but much better energy management skills and skills that have energy management inhereted and are useful at the same time.

Now the mesmer class has a few of these aswell, Inspired Hex and Inspired Enchantment give a 3/5 energy when used, both however with a 20 second cooldown in which they are useless. Then there is channeling which forces you to basically be in melee range, which would likely work, however, I fear that you'll be a huge strain on the monks energy. Suprisingly Spirit of Failure might give the best energy management, though it is really dependand on several factors, and it has a long cast time, unless you build around the skill I don't find it all that useful. This list sort of goes on and on and the skills are either too conditional, don't do anything else but energy management - and even aren't that awesome at that or don't give a good netto energy gain/over time. Which pretty much forces me to put several of them on my skillbar - as if I didn't need 8 more spots as a mesmer to start with.

On a sidenote, while I'm typing this I'm considering Ether Signet+MoR+Mantra of Inscriptions, yeah.. that's 3 skills, but if I'm atleast able to spam the other 4 then I'll be satisfied.

Now, that is out of the way - I find the primary attribute rather useless especially for PvE, if a monster uses an interrupt skill on you, they are going to interrupt you with or without your permission, so you don't have to do it for that. The interrupts start with a 1/4th second cast time to start with and if you have "average" gamer reflexes this means you will react in about 0.2 seconds thus every spell that has a cast time of longer then half a second you will be able to interrupt. This is the case with, and without fast casting. Now I know a lot of people have been claiming to interrupt 1/4th of a second cast spells... but when I look at what is humanly possible, a faster reaction time then 0.1 second on a consistent basis just does not seem possible, the actions that need to be made from the eyes to the brain followed by the command given by the brain to the hands and in addition the refresh rate of your monitor and your eyes... basically 1/4th of a second spells should not be interrupted, and unless the mesmer class is only for those that are inhuman I don't quite understand the usefulness of it if you use the mesmer to mesmerize. Now if the skills were semi useful in this attribute I could live with it, but they aren't. Or they are useful but suffer of the lack of energy management - sigh I'm in a viceous cycle here.

Domination and Illusion are both nice attributes that are very useful, the skill in there however either have a rediculous cooldown, are a rediculous energy cost which makes it more suites for a one-time-use-spike then constant damage dealing. On the illusion line in specific, it's focused on degen, which really isn't that hot in PvE, and can be better then by a ranger with apply poison, if really needed. Domination mostly suffers from the two problems I said earlier, a skillbar with "backfire - empathy - cover hex - power spike - shatter enchantment - spiritual pain - energy surge" would be awesome - but the cooldowns and energy costs are way too high, even in that specific skillbar I do think a curse necro for instance can do similar damage while keeping up his or her energy.

Now with that all said... I posted this in the build forum because I might just be missing a couple of huge builds that actually don't suffer from all these problems I summed up. In addition, I believe that the people that can help me, if at all possible would be in this forum. So any suggestions for skills and builds are welcome, I'll gladly try them out.

nSin

Pick Me · Nov 24, 2006, 03:01 PM // 15:01

Hopefully, I understand what you are asking for.

You are complaining about the primary attribute of the Mesmer, the energy management being only a single attribute for the mesmer, compared to other professions, and doing damage without long recharges or waiting for health degeneration.

Was that the basics of it?

Fast Casting, do you need it in PvE? No. Is it useful in PvE? Yes, but definitely not as useful as it is in PvP.

Why is it useful? Casting interupts faster, casting energy gain spells faster, casting Rebirth, Resurrect, or any long casting spells faster than others. Do you not see a benefit of this?

Energy management is laughable when you compare Mesmers to others. Divine Favor? No comparison. Soul Reaping, good if something dies. Expertise, good for non-spell casting, otherwise useless. Spawinging - only benefits health of spirits and undead; only the elite skill gives you energy management. Energy Storage is not management, it just entices you to spend more energy (to compensate for the high costs of many spells). Yes Elementalists have nice elites in Energy Storage, but you have good elites too. Assassins need critical hits to gain a bit of energy. Paragons and Dervishes have very good energy maintanence, but requires people to listen to them or have enchantments removed from them respectively.

Why do you think people say that Mo/Me is good because Mesmer's ability to give the monk side energy management. Why do you see Mesmers never cry for BiP or BR? Because they are the best at energy management (my opinion).

Mesmers benefit from runes, others don't. So you can be more self reliant without needing another profession, unlike others who use x/Me and put points into inspiration magic.

Mantra of Recovery (e) is the only way to cut down on recharge time, but then again you do have archane echo.

I don't know much about NF skills, so I won't say much about them.

Quite possibly a nice combo is:

Archane Mimicry + Signet of Illusion (e) + elite spell taken from ally. While I don't think you can add archane echo (you could try), but utilizing from another profession (SS, MS, BL, etc.) you could become a very awesome mesmer. While it is true you'd be using a skill from a different profession, you are really still using Mesmer only skills.

Domination Magic + Inspiration Magic + Fast Casting should take care of most of your concerns. Yes, NPCs will interupt you at will, but you can do the same to them.

Hope this helps you a bit.

A Leprechaun · Nov 24, 2006, 03:07 PM // 15:07

aaah to much writing!!

i used to get on fine (i thought) with my mesmer in PvE (my first) but now that i come back to him he is uslesss. well i cant seem to find a use for him.... although he looks great ^^

~A Leprechaun~

upier · Nov 24, 2006, 03:40 PM // 15:40

well you could try the other going the other way sometime. not going for the huge damage that you lack the energy for - but rather be a pain in the ass.
take stuff that is superb in pvp - yet not as much in pve. drop those backfires, empathies, surges/burns and pains. have fun with wasterls, diversion - heck even arcane languor. the hench will be able to shoot down most of the stuff - no need for you to do the same.
i love the pvp messy skills but hate pvp - so i use them in pve. basicly i try to have fun - even if it makes me useless in the traditional pve way where damage is king.
(oh and btw - my messy somehow doesnt have energy problems anymore - hes is always followed around by masters of whispers who carries BiP in his first slot - some might call it abuse but hey - thats what hes there for - to take my shit!

)

nSin · Nov 24, 2006, 06:20 PM // 18:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pick Me

Hopefully, I understand what you are asking for.

You are complaining about the primary attribute of the Mesmer, the energy management being only a single attribute for the mesmer, compared to other professions, and doing damage without long recharges or waiting for health degeneration.

Complaining.. I wouldn't totally label the entire topic as a complain but there are some complaints in there. Summed up of what I said:

- There are serious flaws in putting the main energy management of mesmers in a non-primary attribute.
- The energy management skills that mesmers have now are balanced for when you have mesmer as a secondary but a bit underpowered if you use mesmer as a primary, this is because with mesmer as a secondary you already have inherent energy management from your primary, but a mesmer lacks that.
- Mesmer spells that are useful in PvE have high recharge and high casting cost.
- The illusion line isn't all that hot, degen is only so-so in PvE.

Quote:

Fast Casting, do you need it in PvE? No. Is it useful in PvE? Yes, but definitely not as useful as it is in PvP.

Why is it useful? Casting interupts faster, casting energy gain spells faster, casting Rebirth, Resurrect, or any long casting spells faster than others. Do you not see a benefit of this?

A benefit yes... but compared to other primaries it's rather insignificant. If the role of a mesmer is being a Rezmer they should've called the class "caretaker" or something.

Quote:

Energy management is laughable when you compare Mesmers to others. Divine Favor? No comparison. Soul Reaping, good if something dies. Expertise, good for non-spell casting, otherwise useless. Spawinging - only benefits health of spirits and undead; only the elite skill gives you energy management. Energy Storage is not management, it just entices you to spend more energy (to compensate for the high costs of many spells). Yes Elementalists have nice elites in Energy Storage, but you have good elites too. Assassins need critical hits to gain a bit of energy. Paragons and Dervishes have very good energy maintanence, but requires people to listen to them or have enchantments removed from them respectively.

Why do you think people say that Mo/Me is good because Mesmer's ability to give the monk side energy management. Why do you see Mesmers never cry for BiP or BR? Because they are the best at energy management (my opinion).

Elementalists - Energy Storage has far better energy management skills then mesmers have though. Ether prodigy is +6 Pips of regen compared to the 4 that MoR offers. Energy Boon gives more netto energy over time aswell. Elemental Attunement beats MoR easily and Ether Prism can potentially give you much more energy aswell. In addition to that (as if it wasn't enough) they have the normal attunements.

Paragon, Assasin, Dervish - they have great energy management and maybe not so much in the netto energy gain when compared to mesmers, however, they can keep spamming all their spells indefinatly without running of energy if you build them correctly, I quite simply do not see a mesmer capable of doing so.

Ritualist - have energy management skills, most of the skills don't cost a lot of energy to start with though, or return energy. I'm honestly not too fond of ritualists either right now though.

Quote:

Mesmers benefit from runes, others don't. So you can be more self reliant without needing another profession, unlike others who use x/Me and put points into inspiration magic.

Mantra of Recovery (e) is the only way to cut down on recharge time, but then again you do have archane echo.

Mantra of Recovery is great on paper, then I tried it out and I had massive energy problems, the same thing all over again. If I don't use an elite for energy management then I don't find mesmers usable in PvE at all.

Thanks for the reply though, I'm not quite convinced yet about how usable they are.

Hella Good · Nov 24, 2006, 07:14 PM // 19:14

FC has issues that's true and there are numerous discussions on this. Just recently over at GW Online I posted a thread in the suggestions forum in which there has been some wonderful ideas on how to "fix" FC and bring back the power to Inspiration. I can only hope that the devs do read these suggestions and take notes.

Moving on... Mesmer in PvE has never been better. NF has given Mesmers 2 extremely powerful skills in PvE- Spiritual Pain and Mistrust. You can use MoR or GoR. I personally find GoR one of the best elites to use on a Mesmer. It's Ele, non-attribute, and better than Echo (can't be stripped, recharges much faster, etc.). I like GoR because of it's ability to unload a lot of damage fast. I currently use GoR, Spiritual Pain, Mistrust, Shatter Hex, Empathy, Power Drain, Drain Enchantment, and Res Sig (the cool Sunspear one o'course). It works wonderfully for me.

And btw ever since NF, I haven't had a problem getting in a group. Soon as I type in "Mesmer LFG Master's" and I get an invite or two. I'm proly gonna get my Protector of Elona soon on my Me. I'm doing better than on my Necro... and if that isn't painting a clear picture, I don't know what will.

Pick Me · Nov 24, 2006, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Well, clearly you have given a great deal of thought into the Mesmer being a viable PvE character.

I'm retract my first post then, about your inital post being a complaint. I was mistaken.

I am still very convinced that a Mesmer is an awesome character to use in PvE. Why?

Dispite what you see as limitations, a mesmer is more than just a ho-hum character that can interupt and do some okay health degen. We are great at going against bosses, wurms, and anything else that reduces hex duration (Worstel's Worry is spamable, and can do good damage in quick successions). Interupts, e-denial, divert harmful skills (both offensive and defensive), etc.

MoR is the best way to get your skills recharged (unless you use Assassin's Promise)

or some other elite.

Elementalist spells have sever drawbacks regarding energy management.

Ether Prodigy - take 3 points of damage for each point of energy you have at the end of the spell. Causes exhaustion

Energy Boon - i equate this to Offering of Blood, but instead of health loss, its energy exhaustion

Ether Prism is only good if you have level 13 or higher in Energy Storage. Even then you don't get much. Cost is 25, gain 2 for each point into Energy Storage.

You could go with Archane Echo, Good spell, and Glyph of Renewal. Heck you can even equip Gylph of Lesser Energy.

As a non-elite, Ether Lord can be used (offers upto +3 pips), only if you are down to your last 5 energy

There are signets that can be used to get your energy as well, but you were looking for more of an edge that Mesmer primarys have that Non-mesmer primaries cannot take advantage of. Maybe in another update that will change, or maybe you'll have to wait until another GW campaign comes out.

Hella Good · Nov 24, 2006, 07:32 PM // 19:32

To be honest, the only Ele skill I ever run on my Me besides GoR is Deep Freeze. In fact, someone asked me for Meteor Shower the other day and I decided to take it to see how it works. And- what can I tell you- I did much more damage with GoR/SP. I guess FC Air is still alright and maybe Burning based Fire. But that seems to me more like something you'd run in RA, not something you'd roll in PvE.

Btw why on Earth would you run E-surge in PvE???

Master Fuhon · Nov 24, 2006, 07:37 PM // 19:37

Fast Casting line looks dead because the skills in it are barely ever useful. The worst primary attribute used to always be the necromancer (no skills/shutdown in pvp), but it's the skills that stink more than the benefit. I always thought Inspiration had some of the best energy management, getting powerful side effects with your energy. I'd personally rather teleport everywhere by using the assassin secondary than have the "benefit" of being forced to go x/Me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nSin

Domination mostly suffers from the two problems I said earlier, a skillbar with "backfire - empathy - cover hex - power spike - shatter enchantment - spiritual pain - energy surge" would be awesome - but the cooldowns and energy costs are way too high, even in that specific skillbar I do think a curse necro for instance can do similar damage while keeping up his or her energy.

If thats your idea of a perfect skillbar, then obviously what you want is something that functions like an Elementalist. You want something like "Aura of Domination", an attunement that reduces the cost of mesmer domination skills. So take your least favorite skill off that list, and hey, it could have been in inspiration skill in that spot.

Next, swap either power spike (power drain) or shatter enchantment (drain enchantment), and you aren't that far from your dream skillbar. Of course, since a domination attunement doesn't exist, you now have to pick another inspiration skill for energy management. Now you end up with a bar that looks this: 5 domination, 2 inspiration, rez. A pure domination mesmer can expect to wand to get an increased damage output. Possibly even go with the 4/3 split if you want a self heal. All your spells might be 10-15, but you could be a Ritualist/Elementalist and have more than a few 25 energy monsters that you want to pick instead.

But come on now, we'd all pick top skills and fuel our attacks with "Blood is Power" necro's and protection monks if we had the chance. Warriors aren't broken because they can't remain in Frenzy all the time. I wouldn't underestimate the power of the domination line either.

Epinephrine · Nov 24, 2006, 07:43 PM // 19:43

I side with the OP:

Mesmers have some real problems, and they stem from:

- Inspiration being the energy management, and being a secondary line.
This has the result that other classes use it for energy management, and as a result it gets nerfed. As pointed out, many classes get energy management from their primary, which mesmers don't get.

- Halved casting times hurting interrupts
In the first GW, mesmers were great to have when facing bosses, they could do a pretty nice job of shutting them down; if they had a weakness in normal PvE, at least they made handling a boss easier! With Factions and Nightfall bosses doing double damage his is even more impotrtant, but the halved casting times makes it unlikely that any mesmer player who isn't on about 18 coffees could interrupt a standard 1 second spell; a half second is too little time, even given a good connection and reflexes. Sure, 2 second spells are doable.

I too love mesmers; playing one as something OTHER than a damage dealer should be possible. Someone mentions Spiritual Pain above - in my mind that's just an armour ignoring elementalist spell. It's damage. I don't play a mesmer to hurl dmage, it's to control and shape the battle, to provide advantage, reduce opponent effectiveness etc.

Memsers should have more in the way of energy management intrinsically, within their primary attribute. Energy for interrupting a foe would be a start, making control-type players more effective. Energy for hexing perhaps as well; generating energy for hexes on opponents with mesmer hexes on them? There are creative ways to do it - as it is, most classes get their energy management handed to them; monks need even more because of their duties, but their reliance on mesmer energy management has killed it for mesmers.

the_jos · Nov 24, 2006, 09:06 PM // 21:06

It all depends on your build and party.
When I quest in PvE, I use Spirit of Failure combined with Ineptitude most of the time.
I call caster (Jin dazes the poor fellow), switch to melee/ranger, cast SoF, Ineptitude. No more energy problems.
Switch to next target, degen (Images of Remorse), clumsiness (or even Signet of Clumsiness, since there is no energy cost). When called target dies, switch to next caster, repeat.
No need for max points in fast casting (if any). That means more point in Inspiration.

When large groups of casters are expected, Domination with Backfire for the boss, Power Drain or Leech sig for the interruptable casters.
When you really fear the spells, run Migraine and Arcane Conundrum on the boss.
Interrupts should be easy now.

You could look at the various Mantra's if you know what kind of damage to expect.
Also check Drain Delusions combined with Web of Disruption (double interrupt for < 10 energy).
Channeling should also work, there are probably some enemies 'In the Area' when you attack a group. And it has a long enchantment time (given it is not stripped).

As a mesmer, you should not have too many problems generating a decent flow of energy.

Hella Good · Nov 24, 2006, 09:42 PM // 21:42

FC is NOT an e-management attribute. It's purpose is to prevent inters and to speed up the unloading of spells. It has issues but these issues have nothing to do with nrg management. ANet refuses to address the real issue- Insp being abused by non-Me primaries and instead keeps nerfing the skills in the hopes that cosmetic changes solve the issue. They don't. One of the best ideas about FC and Insp I've heard is to allow for abused skills to "dip" into FC and to increase their cast time.

Example: Make Mantra of Recall 3 cast, and make it so this skill gets double the boost from FC. (much like Healing Touch gets double the boost from Divine Favors).

Now, none of this has anything to do with PvE where none of this matters. Use GoLE if you not happy with Insp, for me Power Drain and Drain Ench works fine, esp. under MoR or GoR. I think too many Me are set in the mentality that PvE should be addressed same as PvP- one target at a time. PvE is mobsfest. Bring your AoE, damage, hexes, whathaveyou, and don't focus on one target- murder all. GoR/SP/Mistrust is deadly to say the least. You see a boss? No prob. Just Blackout the damn boss and it's a done deal. No reason to build specifically to kill a boss.

lightblade · Nov 25, 2006, 12:24 AM // 00:24

- If...power drain is used every 25 seconds...that'll be the equivilent of 12 pips of energy regen.

- Hella Good is right on that one. Anet shouldn't be nerfing inspiration skills, but instead increase its casting time to make fast casting more useful. Or maybe we can make fast casting increase cast time by 4% per rank.

HolyHawk · Nov 25, 2006, 05:59 AM // 05:59

Honestely, I played the pve with my mesmer using all mesmer skills, and amoung the other classes, it was the easiest to play through. Shatter hex and backfire alone are amazing in pve. And I think the recharge times are just fine, that way you won't find yourself without energy due to careless spamming, nor making some skills too powerfull. And yes, NF new non elite skills just own.

FalconDance · Nov 25, 2006, 01:12 PM // 13:12

The only major (or minor, really) problem I've had running a mesmer in PvE - and I'm on my third one, now - is that we tend to be far lower on the heal list with the monks than just about anyone else. Granted, a decent mesmer won't be taking all that much damage, but when we do.......

Fast Cast is not intended to be an energy management attribute except in that it definitely gives an edge over the cast time of any skill/spell. Faster cast time = faster recovery, theoretically. (Not really, but it will seem like it.) A mesmer is an interrupter extraordinaire, so it makes sense to have a faster casting ability, doesn't it? Just as a warrior is expected to have greater strength to wield those heavy melee weapons all day, a monk to have divine favor of the gods, a necromancer to have a close tie to souls, etc.

I, for one, would really appreciate it if my ranger could have taken advantage of her mesmer secondary's fast cast ability in Tyria so long ago! BUT she was a ranger and had high Expertise, which balanced out her noted lack of energy (compared to a mesmer) and energy regen abilities with the lessening of energy needed to make her 'preparations'.

Mantra of Recovery allows skills to recharge 50% faster, thus enabling you to cast twice in the same time as you'd normally only once. Personally, it's about the only mesmer elite I have ever used on a consistent basis (although that may change with NF skills once I get my Tyrian over to Elona again).

So perhaps it's too early and I'm just not understanding what the complaint is (and yes, you said from the outset that your post was likely a complaint

).

A person will be able to find any profession's primary attribute to be superior or inferior to any other's if that's what you're deliberately seeking. However, instead of seeking the perceived difficulties, why not look at the benefits?

nSin · Nov 25, 2006, 03:11 PM // 15:11

Well well, thanks for the replies, many insights.

Lets start with this, for everyone that said that FC is not an energy management attribute - I'm very well aware, I never claimed differently. However, I make the (valid) point that the Mesmer is the only class that does not have energy management linked to its primary and therefore, it got nerfed and nerfed because otherwise secondary mesmers would abuse it. Inpsiration is a line based around energy management, and yet it feels inferior to all other energy management spells from primaries, perhaps not in netto gain when you compare it to the Paragon/Assasin/Ranger/Dervish class, however, these classes are able to spam their spells indefinatly if you build them correctly, a Mesmer is far from capable of doing so, that is... if you want to do damage at all.

I would like to point out aswell that Energy Denial - the reason that some of the inspiration skills got nerfed - is absolutely useless in PvE and therefore hard to balance out. I'm sure this point has been made plenty of times already but I just want to throw it out there. So other then that the energy management is below par when compared to any other class then a Warrior (who doesn't need it) the secondary effect of the energy management is useless in PvE.

Note, my problem is not getting picked, my problem is not completing the game. I could probably complete the game with henchies and an empty skillbar if really needed. However, as a Mesmer, I just don't feel quite upto par when compared to other classes. The only build that I had decent succes with was a Phys Distracion build for FoW, anything else, everything either dies way too quick.

FalconDance brings up a good point, even though he didn't intend it like that, what class would give their primary attribute for Fast Cast? Maybe an elementalist, although there are some really nice skills in the energy storage line now (unlike Fast Cast). I think I prefer energy storage over it. Maybe a ritualist would use it but then again, it doesn't work with spirits, and the spells of a Ritualist don't have a long cast time and the Spawning Power has some really nice skills in there aswell. Honestly, I don't think any of the classes would be better off with fast casting (especially not a ranger, not sure what you were doing with that Falcon :X). This kinda counts for all classes though, I'm just saying, if I had the choice, for PvE I could really care less about fast cast and I would rather have Soul Reaping/Energy Storage/Spawning/Divine Favor for a caster, depending on what I plan to do, ofcourse.

Also Falcon, I oppose the claim that I'm deliberately seeking for flaws in this class. I've had my character for a year now and I've been trying to make him work in PvE to the point that it could match my other characters for a long time. However I just feel as if I have the numbers against me, and honestly, with the reasoning I've been giving there are some serious flaws in the design of the mesmer class which makes them a lot less usable for PvE then they could be.

Note that, I'm well aware that there's a lot of complaining in my post, but I do think that I'm trying to put it in a constructive way and bring up arguments that could contribute to the discussion, simply labeling everything I said as a complaint doesn't do it justice.

EDIT:: I've been giving Mantra of Recovery some thought

- 10 Energy every 20 seconds equals 1.5 pips
- You won't have "more" energy because you'll be using everything for 200% aswell
- So if the energy management didn't work with the original build, MoRecov won't change that.
- You need to invest a lot of points in Fast Casting that are useless for pretty much everything else

However

+ Because everything recharges faster you don't have to use as much spells
+ Which might free up some space for more inspiration energy management spells

But

- What energy management spell actually benefits from faster recharge...? The Revealed and Inspired spells don't. The only spell that really benefits from it is Energy Tap and Drain Enchantment, the first one barely offsets the mana cost of MoR and the other is conditional and really doesn't have that good of an energy gain (1 pip without, 2 pips with MoR)

EDIT2::

+ MoR actually works really good with Spirit of Failure for energy management, still a bit conditional, but better then nothing. Also, SoF costs 10 energy, and gives 3-4 (if you want to run MoR you need 12 in Fast Cast ?) energy, on average the opponent needs to do 12 attacks just to offset the loss in energy, it's still pretty decent though.

TGgold · Nov 25, 2006, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Well, MoR and P.Drain are pretty amazing together.

Katari · Nov 25, 2006, 06:16 PM // 18:16

[skill]Assassin's Promise[/skill][skill]Spiritual Pain[/skill][skill]Unnatural Signet[/skill][skill]Energy Burn[/skill][skill]Mistrust[/skill][skill]Resurection Signet[/skill][skill]Shatter Deluisions[/skill][skill]Phantom Pain[/skill]

10 Deadly Arts
12+1+? Domination
8+1 Fast Casting

Sure, you're forced to give up a self heal, but it lets you spam damage skills in PvE.

E-managment is a non-issue with Sin's Promise, and if you're confident in the damage output of your team, PP and SD can be swaped out for some more utility spells, such as interupts or hex removals. I've given up on builds that focus on interpts ever since heros were introduced.

HolyHawk · Nov 25, 2006, 08:08 PM // 20:08

Little off topic, but Inspiration line has been touched a few times already. Remember the times when you would steal 18+ energy and gain the same amount... You could kill anything just with e-drain, e-tap, spirit shackles and mind wrack, really anything. Recharges were lower as well, then they balanced it and reworked the skills.

FalconDance · Nov 25, 2006, 09:43 PM // 21:43

FalconDance is a she, nSin.

No, I wasn't specifically saying you were seeking flaws. That was meant as more of a general admonishment since sooooo many threads are engendered that whine and carry on about all the 'wrong' with X-profession rather than stop and try to find the 'right' and work with it.

When I mentioned my ranger wishing for FC (waaaay back and when), it was more of a wondering how much FC would've cut a 2 second cast skill. (Please, nobody do the math!) What if a trapper could use FC; think of the implications for (not) interrupting the traps in progress! A little ridiculous (and FC wouldn't phase trapping skills, just an example), perhaps. Instead, however, rangers have Expertise which lowers the energy cost of their skills since they're given the poorest energy next to the warrior. As you said, why would an ele need FC since they have double the energy reserves a mesmer can dream of at any given time anyhow. A monk really wouldn't benefit that much, either. A necromancer, on the other hand, might a bit....those 2 and 3 second casts seem to last forever in battle!

I dunno. The only one of the core professions I have very little fun with is the warrior - rangers and mesmers top the list of my favorites. I don't run any sort of cookie cutter builds although I do look at them and see why they work as opposed to how/why mine works for me. I haven't had any difficulty with mesmers (or any other class, really) and feeling 'up to par'. Perhaps it's just the way I approach things. <<shrugs>>