Curse

holden · Jun 07, 2006, 01:42 PM // 13:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

This is a bit contradictory. Backfire and Empathy are skills you don't use in organized PvP...

yeah but that's just a personal preference. i like playing a glyph mesmer and backfire will sometimes make it on that bar but i really never take empathy. i'd put it all in curses and take SS if i wanted to bring that kind of a skill. but it's all opinion and i'd never question someone for taking those two skills in any form of pvp.

LightningHell · Jun 07, 2006, 01:47 PM // 13:47

I don't question why they take it, I question their experience.

Eaimirth Etaivella · Jun 07, 2006, 11:34 PM // 23:34

I sometimes question why I take shatter hex but then I realize I should be questioning why they take it but then realize...*goes on*

unholy guardian · Jun 08, 2006, 12:07 AM // 00:07

i may have to roll a mesmer... hmm good guide for people like me who never really went into mesmer too far without deleteing it

dopper · Jun 14, 2006, 04:41 PM // 16:41

thanx for this guide

really helpful for ppl like me who have no idea where to start with developing a mesmer

Jetdoc · Jun 14, 2006, 07:37 PM // 19:37

Honestly, I really dislike this build in PvE - energy draining skills in PvE have almost no effect on the creatures you face.

I think going with the much more effective/direct PvE impacts is better.

Backfire = damage dealer
Empathy = damage dealer
Conjure Phantasm = degeneration
Phantom Pain = deep wound inflicter
Shatter Delusions = damage dealer (phantom pain trigger)
Diversion = healing skill disabler
Wastrel's Worry = excellent against bosses
Rez Signet (of course)

Pump all of our points into Domination, some in Illusion, and the rest into Fast Casting. You'll be very happy with this build.

Eaimirth Etaivella · Jun 14, 2006, 09:49 PM // 21:49

Ick to all degen in PvE
Ick to diversion in PvE
Ick to rez sig when you have no reason not to use ressurect/rebirth due to lack of a secondary.

holden · Jun 15, 2006, 01:43 PM // 13:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

Honestly, I really dislike this build in PvE - energy draining skills in PvE have almost no effect on the creatures you face.

I think going with the much more effective/direct PvE impacts is better.

Backfire = damage dealer
Empathy = damage dealer
Conjure Phantasm = degeneration
Phantom Pain = deep wound inflicter
Shatter Delusions = damage dealer (phantom pain trigger)
Diversion = healing skill disabler
Wastrel's Worry = excellent against bosses
Rez Signet (of course)

Pump all of our points into Domination, some in Illusion, and the rest into Fast Casting. You'll be very happy with this build.

you're still spread pretty thin imo. i dont think you need to put more into illusion just to carry conjure. you only need 2 or 3 in illusion to get a 7-9 second deep wound out of phantom pain. i'd get fast casting to 11 or 12 if you won't use inspiration.

but you have no way to get energy back in a long fight. even 9 in inspiration will give you a lot of options. power drain, revealed hex, drain enchantment.

a skill interrupt like cry or leech sig would be very helpful.

i'm with eaimirth on the diversion in pve....later, against bosses, but not a general pve build.

SnipiousMax · Jun 15, 2006, 03:13 PM // 15:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by holden

you have no elite.

That's the point of this thread.

holden · Jun 15, 2006, 04:28 PM // 16:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

That's the point of this thread.

idioted and edited

Minus Sign · Jul 19, 2006, 04:55 PM // 16:55

Wow. ya go Whammo farming for a while and come back to find all sorts of comments.

Alright. I'ma ignore the PvP discussion except to say this:
BoonProts do not bring Port Spirit anymore. They're all on a kick about Signet of Divotion. So if thats not a good reason for you to tinker with Backfire, I can't help ya.

Other than that, i label this a PvE build in submission forum and describe its use for mob--AI--fights through the guide. It was not and is not a build I run in PvP. There are already plenty of those to go around.

@ Jetdoc: I've looked through your build and frown on it for 2 reasons.

1: no energy managment. if you notice I spend more than a little time talking about the benifits of energy gain skills. A good mesmer is like the energizer bunny. They keep going and going and going while everyone else is down for regen.

Dom Hex Mesmer's aren't nukes per se. They're closer to a caster version of a warrior. Damage is consistent throughout the fight instead of frontend with excessive cooldown. There is some cooldown, but that is because our DPS doesn't come primarily from our weapon.

2: NO SELF HEALING! This is the ONLY online roleplaying game I know where all support skills (and health management) are dumped onto a single player in a group of 6 people or more. If you don't bring self heals, you have no reason to blame that monk when you die. It was your fault.

@ every1: This is not just my monk talking to you. This is my warrior. This is my necro. It's my Rit and ranger; my old ele and sin. All of them, I bring a self heal for a simple fact:

NO MATTER HOW GOOD THE E-MANAGER, A MONK'S MANA IS NOT INFINITE.

Bold, underlined and italicised for a reason. If newbs take anything away from reading this post, know that. Learn that today!

You may think I'm upset at you. I want you to know I'm not. But I consider this second part to be the primary flaw of 90% of the PvE players out there. Speaking as someone who has played every proffession from start to finish on either Cantha or Tyria (some of them both) I want to say 2 things. Except for my heal/prot monk, my builds do plenty of damage. More important than that, they are considerably more resilent than my No-healing counter parts.

So if you don't have room for a self-heal and rez on your bar, you need to seriously consider re-thinking your build.

Pick Me · Jul 19, 2006, 06:00 PM // 18:00

Minus Sign, I agree with you about self-heal and rez. If you don't have both, then you are SOL.

I always have a self heal and a rez, sadly, I don't always carry the best self heal with me (my builds don't permit me to bring it sometimes).

Sometimes a self heal (depending on build) maybe worthless. An example would be E/R with 0 in wilderness survival. So you are stuck with an Ele's healing, which is not the best healing.

So, should you still take it or bring in a better skill?

I'm not saying that people must rely on monks, monks rely on energy, so that can either foce necros to go to blood magic, or make the monk or ritualist take the mesmer secondary and focus on inspiration magic. Both are not acceptable. I've been with parties who don't bring rez (thinking that only the monk must survive), or people don't bring self heals. Most of the time, people bring self-heals and rez.

Personally, I hate Inspiration Magic, it has its uses, but most of my characters do not suffer from energy depletion any more.

Minus Sign · Jul 19, 2006, 07:43 PM // 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pick Me

Snip!

On further contemplation, I've edited the Op to reflect my latest post and will edit the submission as well. I feel that strongly about it.

That means I've said it twice now, with a third time on the way not included in this post:

If you don't have room for a self-heal and rez on your bar, you need to seriously consider re-thinking your build. Early in the game I was ostracized by PuGs and guild members for bringing these 'horrible" heals...when they noticed. Most times they didn't (suggesting that my damage output was fine with only those 3 to 5 pure damage skills I brought).

But all too often my warrior has had to sprint out of a fight when things go bad to rebirth my team. Poisoned and bleeding and having the crud knocked out of me with the monk spiked dead by a lucky AI combo, I would have been on the ground with them if not for heal sig and waiting for return to outpost.

I don't intentionally put myself in the position you describe. I don’t build a character that can't heal himself in some way. To me, it doesn't matter that it is a bad heal. Ether Feast is a "bad heal". But I bring it. I bring it because it’s better than nothing.

If you can't kill mobs with 6 skills, you won't kill them with 7.

Right now, PvE players are insisting monks be the best characters in their group. I’m dead serious. A pair of monks that can heal you with no deaths and all 6 other players bringing no heals is a kick butt team.

But as any1 who has PuGed knows, not all monks are that uber player. So I ask: why do you want to force yourself to rely on someone whose abilities you may question when you can at least heal some of that damage with just one skillslot.

If the monks are uber, you won’t need it (and since you don’t have to cast that heal, your DoT does go up). But if they aren’t you and they will be happy to have brought it.

EDIT: My rit actually has some very good energy management right there in Spawning. Commune and Resto have good skills as well for keeping her E up and flowing. the only character I feel has a signifigant lack of E managemnt in PvE is the monk Primary. pvP, we do fine without them. but thats because any pvPer whose played more than once (and lived) brings a self heal, no matter the build.

There is an exception to every rule, of course. In farming and exploit heavy environments, you use the exploit build. If you're doing 2 character's jobs instead of just the one you normally do, self-heal can be excused. Any team--or its healers--will not mind since you're busy doing 2 people's jobs anyway and wouldn't have the time to self manage as much.

But if you're questing, PuGing a mission, any other normal type of PvE play with the diverse situations you find on a daily basis, bring your self heal.

Pick Me · Jul 19, 2006, 08:15 PM // 20:15

Lol, this is the second time some one has "snip"ped me.

Anyway, my worst PvE self-healing build was:

SS+Domination (with henchies):

SS
Parasitic Bond
Backfire
Power Spike
Cry Of Frustration
Shatter Enchantment
Signet of Disruption
Rez Sig

I never died. I was able to kill monsters by spreading PB on many monsters and kept on interupting them. They died, and I gained energy and health (I'm a N/Me).

But with other people, yes, I bring Blood Renewal and a Rez (regardless if I'm Domination, MM, SS, Blood, Battery, Illusion, etc.)

My W/R always brings either TU or Healing Sig; my Rit/N always has GwT, my R/Mo always has either Monk healing or TU, and my Mo/E always has Monk healing.

I always believe that the only profession so far that can never rely on a healer is the Assassin. If you are the type who thinks they can solo or fight on your own, then never expect healing from others.

I always bring some form of healing because sometimes the Monk(s) or Ritualist(s) may be too busy healing others, that someone may slip through the cracks and die.

So heal yourself if need be, but don't blame the healers if you never heal yourself.

Just to point out, the more time you heal yourself, the less time you have killing your foe.

holden · Jul 19, 2006, 09:20 PM // 21:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minus Sign

If you don't have room for a self-heal and rez on your bar, you need to seriously consider re-thinking your build.

i do not agree. when monking i do not want to see anyone stop what they are doing to heal themselves. that's why i'm there. when the team stops doing damage is when the pressure mounts for the monk.

i HATE to see the warrior using heal sig in the middle of a battle. i mean what the hell. keep swinging your weapon.

if you draw aggro right there will be no reason for the party to stop and heal themselves. so are you going to waste a spot on your bar with a skill you'll only use if someone sucks and draws too many?

Minus Sign · Jul 19, 2006, 10:02 PM // 22:02

@holden: When you're monking is EXACTLY when I want to bring my heal sig. Because I'm not monking anymore. I don't know how good you are, if you're having an off day or may lag out get pissed and leave. I do not want my entire team to be beholden to your ability to play well, behave like an adult and heal consistently. I don't know if the ele has ever learned to kite (all too many PvE players think PvP players are talking about paper and twine with the word; it means run from the mob instead of getting the ever-loving crud knocked out of you) so I don't know if you'll be burning all your mana on him instead of a gentle heal/prot of the team.

The point is, self heals are not brought for what you know you will have to deal with. They are brought for the problems you CAN'T see in the outpost.

When I monk I LOVE to see a warrior use a heal sig after a mob dies. An idiot uses a heal sig in the exact middle of killing his target, and should be flamed. Then again, a monk should be royally burned for spamming Heal Other when an Orison at the right time would negate all the damage.

Self management is just like good monking. There is a time to heal and a time to wait. Spamming heals just for the fun of it or because someone's been hit is idiocy for monk; its bad energy management and poor use of spells you may actually need later. So true for any other player.

But those heals should be there. Disagree if you feel the need. Most people do, unfortunately. But if you flame my characters in game for self managing when you obviously can't do the job (for whatever reason) expect me to burn you right back. After all, if you can't heal me does that mean I have to die??? Or, more closer to home: if I can't heal you, should you get to fry?

holden · Jul 19, 2006, 10:39 PM // 22:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minus Sign

@holden: When you're monking is EXACTLY when I want to bring my heal sig. Because I'm not monking anymore. I don't know how good you are, if you're having an off day or may lag out get pissed and leave. I do not want my entire team to be beholden to your ability to play well, behave like an adult and heal consistently. I don't know if the ele has ever learned to kite (all too many PvE players think PvP players are talking about paper and twine with the word; it means run from the mob instead of getting the ever-loving crud knocked out of you) so I don't know if you'll be burning all your mana on him instead of a gentle heal/prot of the team.

The point is, self heals are not brought for what you know you will have to deal with. They are brought for the problems you CAN'T see in the outpost.

When I monk I LOVE to see a warrior use a heal sig after a mob dies. An idiot uses a heal sig in the exact middle of killing his target, and should be flamed. Then again, a monk should be royally burned for spamming Heal Other when an Orison at the right time would negate all the damage.

Self management is just like good monking. There is a time to heal and a time to wait. Spamming heals just for the fun of it or because someone's been hit is idiocy for monk; its bad energy management and poor use of spells you may actually need later. So true for any other player.

But those heals should be there. Disagree if you feel the need. Most people do, unfortunately. But if you flame my characters in game for self managing when you obviously can't do the job (for whatever reason) expect me to burn you right back. After all, if you can't heal me does that mean I have to die??? Or, more closer to home: if I can't heal you, should you get to fry?

there are only 8 spots on the bar and i'd rather see the team doing damage than healing themselves. it's just my opinion. i see your point. dont sweat it.
if your monk sucks that bad or lags out or quits the team is most likely doomed anyway.

Minus Sign · Jul 20, 2006, 06:23 AM // 06:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minus Sign

If you can't kill mobs with 6 skills, you won't kill them with 7.

Or 8. Or 10. Well, maybe ten...

This is something I really want hammered home: there have been more than a few occassions where monks DC or just plain sucked in my groups. In groups where most or all players brought a self-heal, the monks poor or non-existent healing was much less an issue than so many people seem to think. PoP back into tyria for a day and go to the Jungle missions. You'll see what I mean. 6 man groups that scoff henchmen are all bringing self heals for a simple reason: there are no monks over there atm. Now, these missions might go a little faster, the levels used in them might be lower, if they had a good monk they could trust. But thats not because they didn't bring their self heal. Its because they don't have to use it as much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by holden

if your monk sucks that bad or lags out or quits the team is most likely doomed anyway.

Not if people in your group bring (and properly use) a self heal. If everyone put just a little more thought into their build, then the "Sick of all the monk abuse" threads would disappear. A team that can self manage needs no monk. Its just nice to have.

Wolfger · Dec 20, 2006, 09:04 PM // 21:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by holden

power drain is like your american express card.

What... the interest rates are so ridiculous that you'd be stupid to use it except as a last resort? Seriously: AmEx sucks.

Redfeather1975 · Dec 21, 2006, 12:59 AM // 00:59

1 more person tooting the usefullness of thievery/larceny/diversion.
They are useful in PVE exploring and very good against caster bosses.
Made the Drought at full power, in NF look like a wee baby.