Curse

LightningHell · Dec 17, 2006, 11:04 AM // 11:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darcy

Hmm, warrior or mesmer? Well, I have one of each. But if a group is missing the warrior, my mesmer can use Physical Resistance and replace the tank and still get off Empathy, interrupts or degens.

But my warrior cannot replace the mesmer in a group.

Tank?

Claudia Starlight · Dec 18, 2006, 01:56 AM // 01:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

Actually, I've always found the opposite to be true. Why bring a mesmer with damage over time abilities and shutdown hexes, when I can just grab a 3rd or 4th warrior? Things die a lot faster when you have 3 physicals wacking on things.

wow, you must be very lucky then

in most groups that i've been who has a 3rd or 4th warr, either things go out disastriously because they physically wack different targets, and/or one (or more) of them ragequits.

i found that PvE monsters die a lot faster with mesmers!

casters cast through Backfire
and melees hack through Empathy
and the damage ignores armor, as well

Thom Bangalter · Dec 18, 2006, 03:36 AM // 03:36

3 warriors, 1 minion master, 1 elementalist, 2 monks, 1 other, depending on the mission is an ideal group in pve. Soft targets hide behind walls of minions, and can blow things up. The monks don't have to worry about the soft target tanking damage because of all the minions floating about, and the warriors, if remotely decent, should have most things dead fairly quickly.

Things certainly change depending on the mission, but for some random mission just about anywhere, this is the way to go.

Mesmers gain more usefulness in high level areas or against certain tough bosses (such as that mission with the Drought, that can be a pain). Of course, I just hench most things anyway.

I will take a mesmer for easier missions if my friend wants to come because I don't want to leave her out, but I secretly cringe when I do it.

LightningHell · Dec 18, 2006, 03:44 AM // 03:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

3 warriors, 1 minion master, 1 elementalist, 2 monks, 1 other, depending on the mission is an ideal group in pve. Soft targets hide behind walls of minions, and can blow things up. The monks don't have to worry about the soft target tanking damage because of all the minions floating about, and the warriors, if remotely decent, should have most things dead fairly quickly.

Things certainly change depending on the mission, but for some random mission just about anywhere, this is the way to go.

Mesmers gain more usefulness in high level areas or against certain tough bosses (such as that mission with the Drought, that can be a pain). Of course, I just hench most things anyway.

I will take a mesmer for easier missions if my friend wants to come because I don't want to leave her out, but I secretly cringe when I do it.

I actually use 1 monk and 1 partybot...

Kai Nui · Dec 18, 2006, 04:01 AM // 04:01

Mesmer is probably one of the greatest classes, so why the hell can't I get a damn group in DoA when I have KOABD and elite skill hunter (5) with black primeval armor and tons of greens and tons of other shit. I DEMAND INTEGRATION! Seperate facilities aren't good if they aren't equal! I want Mesmer vs. Board of Education! HIYAH! **knocks down door of freedom**

animeba · Dec 20, 2006, 03:59 PM // 15:59

Just because there aren't any mesmers in towns doesn't mean there aren't anyone playing mesmers. With nightfall, many people are playing with heroes instead.

From the previous replies, I sense some people are having trouble joining PUGs as a mesmer. If you want to join PUG teams, try to advertise and sell yourself.
*Titles: If you have a Protector or Grand Master Explorer title, advertise and display it. PVP titles like gladiator and hero titles will also help. The titles will show people that you have been playing the game long enough to know what you are doing.

*Knowledge: Learn about the mission and bonus beforehand and advertise that fact. Some groups might not know the bonus and might need someone to take them through it.

*Particular Skill: If you know the mission, you might realize there are particular skills that are immensely useful to the mission. For example, Wastral Worry is superb in timed missions against powerful bosses. You might get lucky and the team leader tell you that particular vital skill, but more often than not, you need to know it and advertise it.

*Illusionary Weapon with Flurry: requires an enchantment modded axe or sword. Excellent armor ignoring damage which will make you a damage dealer.

Common pitfalls: mesmers advertising as pure interrupts. Rangers with Broad Head Arrow will be much better at interrupts & shutdown. And rangers are much more common.

When you advertise, try to be specific. Don't advertise as a Dom mesmer. Say you are a wastral worry spammer that can kill bosses fast and help group get masters.

Most importantly, you don't need to have an all human team. If you are short of a particular role, use heroes and henchies. They work just fine.

Hopefully, some of you can make use of my advice and have better luck finding PUGs and enjoy Guild Wars more.

Razz L Dazzle · Dec 20, 2006, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kai Nui

Mesmer is probably one of the greatest classes, so why the hell can't I get a damn group in DoA when I have KOABD and elite skill hunter (5) with black primeval armor and tons of greens and tons of other shit. I DEMAND INTEGRATION! Seperate facilities aren't good if they aren't equal! I want Mesmer vs. Board of Education! HIYAH! **knocks down door of freedom**

As Me/N you can run BiP to get an easy group in DoA. Otherwise check your friends list or start your own group. Mesmers are great utility character that benefit any group.

If reference to Thom saying he'd prefer a 3rd or 4th warrior. I just cringe at that party formation. Warrior's have no utility and in PvE environment most just wack away with power attack.

Thom Bangalter · Dec 20, 2006, 08:35 PM // 20:35

You have to find good warriors, and Mesmers are indeed excellent in DoA. but If I'm just doing some earlier mission, I'd rather take a 3rd warrior. As I tried to point out, it varies from area to area; on some missions a mesmer is worth having, but across all 3 chapters more often than not they're dead weight.

Redfeather1975 · Dec 21, 2006, 01:13 AM // 01:13

If you are lucky enough to get a mesmer with spiritual pain and assassin's promise when you are playing through nightfall, you'll notice something different.
Half the groups I was in made some comment on the speed enemies were dying.
Even doing impromptu FOW runs, eles would sometimes just leave, more than 1 group was baffled at the dps the group was managing to do.
I kept my mouth shut.

pingu666 · Dec 21, 2006, 06:45 AM // 06:45

the biggest issue i see with the mesmer is necros do similer stuff in pve, but better

plus mesmers have crap energy management now

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Energy_Drain
compaired too...

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Signet_of_Lost_Souls

at 10 attribute level, energy drain gives a net 9 energy gain (14-5e cost)

at 10, signet of lost souls gives you 7 energy, and 70 health every 8 seconds
3x 7 = 21, and 210 health

if we include say ether feast into the healy comparison, then we need to use it twice, to get 222 health, spend 4 seconds casting and use 10 energy. net gain of -1 energy. yay.

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Power_Drain gives the same return, but nets a loss due to energy cost, plus its even more conditional, and a long recharge time

plus with soul reaping, you will gain X amount of energy when anything dies..

in my example, the necro would idealy end up with +31 energy, and the mesmer -1

how about empathy, and Insidious Parasite ?
IP costs 5 more, casts 1 second quicker, has a 20second recharge (vs 10). steals health, so each time it triggers ull be healed for 47, plus you can use awaken the blood to get it to level 18, for 51health and 17 seconds

direct damage (ish)
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Energy_Surge
you will probably average about 4 struck foes, with 80damage, for 320damage over ~20seconds

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Icy_Veins
rather more single target spamable, or spreadable over time, with our rough 20secs or so we can put icy veins on 3 or 4 times
3x 285 damage
4x 380 damage
plus if they die without hex removal in 37seconds (fairly likely..)
thats a extra 348 damage with 3x
and 464 damage with 4x

so the mesmer would deal 320damage~
and the necro, in ideal situation, could deal 844 :O

plus with 16 sould reaping, thats 16e for each dead thing, plus if u take along signet of lost souls, 11 energy and 106 health.
it would be pretty feasable to get 11e + 106 health then 16e when the creature dies quiet easily, a net 27energy...

plus theres SS and stuff...

and yes i do have a mesmer, and i enjoy playing her :P, currently running a dom build..

power spike
empathy
backfire
spiritual pain
energy surge (e)
power drain
healing breeze
res chant

i guess anet really love there necros...

Cebe · Dec 21, 2006, 08:41 AM // 08:41

Necros interrupt then eh? Hmm, I see it now...Wail of Doom and Spinal Shivers are REAL good interrupts.

For me the Mesmer's primary role has been to interrupt and cause mayhem in doing so. Since the release of NF I have been using the following build:

[skill]Flesh of my Flesh[/skill][skill]Mantra of Recovery[/skill][skill]Frustration[/skill][skill]Drain Delusions[/skill][skill]Web of Disruption[/skill][skill]Power Return[/skill][skill]Leech Signet[/skill][skill]Clumsiness[/skill]

Energy management is not really an issue and with Mantra of Recovery, Power Return's recharge is 2.5 seconds which is just an amazing interrupt.

I often go Domination (since it is my favourite line) and use a build similar to Pingu's...and Energy still isn't to much of a problem...although it did take a long time to get it right. In my view it shouldn't be a Mesmer's job to deal damage. One thing I have noticed is there are a lot of spirits in Elona, particularly around those Kournan Bowmen...so if we're comparing Mesmers to Necros purely on the amount of damage they can deal, providing you hit the spirit in doing so I can get Spiritual Pain off maybe 4 times before the spirit dies...dealing 416 damage to target and around 320 damage to his surrounding mates in a matter of seconds. As far as I know Icy Veins now makes foes scatter so I'm not sure how those numbers would add up in theory.

I was in a group with someone a while ago who described a Mesmer as a "Poor Man's Necro". No. LMAO! Just no! The only comparable thing between them is they can both cause degen...

On a different note the amount of "Is the <Insert Profession> dying out?" threads is amusing. There's a Rit one...there was one along similar lines for eles a while back...maybe I should go right on in and make one for every class...yes.. "Is the Wammo slowly dying...?"

Redfeather1975 · Dec 21, 2006, 10:27 AM // 10:27

I've actually seen one on the Warrior. I don't know if it was guru or gwo.
I thought it was silly.

Terra Xin · Dec 21, 2006, 11:36 AM // 11:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by pingu666

the biggest issue i see with the mesmer is necros do similer stuff in pve, but better

plus mesmers have crap energy management now

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Energy_Drain
compaired too...

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Signet_of_Lost_Souls

at 10 attribute level, energy drain gives a net 9 energy gain (14-5e cost)

at 10, signet of lost souls gives you 7 energy, and 70 health every 8 seconds
3x 7 = 21, and 210 health

if we include say ether feast into the healy comparison, then we need to use it twice, to get 222 health, spend 4 seconds casting and use 10 energy. net gain of -1 energy. yay.

Energy Drain is only conditional when the target has energy for you to drain. When you deny targets, they can't use skills against you. Signet of lost souls has a -50% HP requirement. You intentionally completely ignore this.

Quote:

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Power_Drain gives the same return, but nets a loss due to energy cost, plus its even more conditional, and a long recharge time

Doesn't make sense. Power Drain gives the largest amount of energy in the Mesmer line. There's no net energy loss here.

Quote:

plus with soul reaping, you will gain X amount of energy when anything dies..

So you've incorporated Soul Reaping. Alright, you'll get yours. Let's move on.

Quote:

in my example, the necro would idealy end up with +31 energy, and the mesmer -1

Yeah... and Ideally, the mesmer isn't stupid enough to wind up with a -1 energy degeneration. Then again, the necro needs the energy, a majority of their spells are 15+ energy.

Quote:

how about empathy, and Insidious Parasite ?
IP costs 5 more, casts 1 second quicker, has a 20second recharge (vs 10). steals health, so each time it triggers ull be healed for 47, plus you can use awaken the blood to get it to level 18, for 51health and 17 seconds

First of all, Insidious parasite has another condition, the target has to hit - therefore its useless when the target is blinded, or of course, hexed with the two 'miss' hexes under the Necromancer's Curses line. And when you compare 1 second to a mesmer's ability to fast cast, there's not much difference. Empathy is spammable for its 10 second recharge. By the time you manage to pull off insidious parasite, in 10 seconds, a Mesmer can have two targets taking damage with unconditional hitting.

Quote:

direct damage (ish)
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Energy_Surge
you will probably average about 4 struck foes, with 80damage, for 320damage over ~20seconds

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Icy_Veins
rather more single target spamable, or spreadable over time, with our rough 20secs or so we can put icy veins on 3 or 4 times
3x 285 damage
4x 380 damage
plus if they die without hex removal in 37seconds (fairly likely..)
thats a extra 348 damage with 3x
and 464 damage with 4x

Icy Veins deals cold damage, not unconditional damage.

Quote:

so the mesmer would deal 320damage~
and the necro, in ideal situation, could deal 844 :O

Coulda, shoulda, woulda, but E-surge and Icy Veins are used in different circumstances.

Quote:

plus with 16 sould reaping, thats 16e for each dead thing, plus if u take along signet of lost souls, 11 energy and 106 health.
it would be pretty feasable to get 11e + 106 health then 16e when the creature dies quiet easily, a net 27energy...

And with 16 fast casting, targets are dead before you even get to use that oversupply of energy you have.

Quote:

plus theres SS and stuff...

Scatter and stuff, its all the same.

Quote:

and yes i do have a mesmer, and i enjoy playing her :P, currently running a dom build..

power spike
empathy
backfire
spiritual pain
energy surge (e)
power drain
healing breeze
res chant

.... Yeah. Take out healing breeze, bad skill that one is. Also, useless to have power spike and backfire in the same builds, they counter each other.

Quote:

i guess anet really love their necros...

Fixed quote.

The great thing about mesmers is their inherent ability to shut down things. In this case, my ability to shut down a poorly constructed post^^

It's wrong to make a direct comparison between two classes when they both function differently. Its also bad to make a 1 on 1 skill comparison, when skills are more useful depending on the build that they are accompanied with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

On a different note the amount of "Is the <Insert Profession> dying out?" threads is amusing. There's a Rit one...there was one along similar lines for eles a while back...maybe I should go right on in and make one for every class...yes.. "Is the Wammo slowly dying...?"

These threads don't really prove anything but to prove the threadmaker wrong. That's all.

Sophitia Leafblade · Dec 21, 2006, 12:04 PM // 12:04

Mesmers may not be the most damaing member of a party, but they can consistantly deal considerable damage especially when going specifically Anti, melee or anti caster.

Mesmer may not have the best energy management, but they they still have some good energy management skills that although are only just ok by themselves its there effects on the enemy that are what make them special. ie u only gain a little extra energy, but the enemy suffers a loss of energy.

Mesmers are still the best interupters, even though all classes have interupts none can match the mesmers ability to interupt.

1 on 1 mesmers are debatablly the most powerful class since they can counter most builds in someway.

Mesmers are one of the most versitile classes available, although they tend to be specialised.

Most people who play as a mesmer or generally more knowledgable than people playing the melee classes. 90% of mesmers know what there doing and the concept of 'team work'-(This concept confuses many melee classes), 90% of warriors dont.

Moral of the Story: Mesmers are great, never leave home without one. If your given the choice between a Warrior or a mesmer take the mesmer everytime

Cebe · Dec 21, 2006, 12:21 PM // 12:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terra Xin

The great thing about mesmers is their inherent ability to shut down things. In this case, my ability to shut down a poorly constructed post^^

Quoted for truth.

Velo · Dec 21, 2006, 12:52 PM // 12:52

First post here

ok, about the mesmer use for pve:
in pve mesmer is a great damage dealer if used correctly, even better than a necro (and ele of course): i run this build for general pve missions:
empaty-backfire-mistrust-spiritual pain-energy surge-shatter hex-glyph of lesser energy-rez sig (sunspear one), 13 fast cast and 16 domination. In a standard situation with 4 enemies at level 20 with ur 13 fast cast u can go and use energy surge+spiritual pain+mistrust before they spread out. this results in about 250*4 = 1000 unconditional damage dealed (actually reduced to 1/2 the life of all enemies). Now u can sit down because u have already outdamaged ur teammates, noone of them will deal more damage before enemies die. u have also empaty that deals 46*1,5 dmg x second, backfire (destroy a single caster with 147 dmg for each cast), shatter hex (turns the hex on the tanking warrior in 127 unconditional dmg to all enemies near him). Of course Soul reaping > inspiration in pve but glyph of lesser energy is imho the better energy managment for a pve domination mesmer, i will never use energy drain to get energy. There is no selfheal but in a team build there is no need (and u have in this build 1 hex removal each 10 seconds [shatter hex] and 1 spell preventing skill [mistrust], wich are more effective than a selfheal). plus these skills gets stronger in high level areas, where ur empaty nearly outdamages the elementalist

.

About other threads:
Yes i play my mesmer, i get fun with it and i find no problems in joining teams (maybe the fow armor helps).

About the main question:
a prof dies only when noone use it and u can't choose to use it, so prof can't die. Mesmers aren't many, and that's better imho.

pingu666 · Dec 21, 2006, 09:19 PM // 21:19

power drain is more conditional, as you need to interupt a spell.. there maybe no spell casters, they may not cast, or even worse, u could fail to interupt, bang youve wasted 5 energy, plus u got that nice 25sec recharge.. the signet on the other hand works on anything, quick recharge (if u mess up, not such a big deal) plus its a signet, so you wouldnt trigger something like backfire..

in my example if the -1energy is where he or she starts from, say 40 energy, then the mesmer has 39 at the end of that combo, while the necro has gained 31 energy. that energy gain is potentialy higher than whatever youve just killed (wammo,ranger,dervish,assassin has on there bar)

.... Yeah. Take out healing breeze, bad skill that one is. Also, useless to have power spike and backfire in the same builds, they counter each other.

hb can cast on others aswell, doesnt require a bad guy like ether tap, its not too shabby if used right. plus its kinda useful when walkint through lava on the ring of fire. i cast backfire on 1 target, and try to interupt another :P

skillcosts are similer on the average build http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Build:N/Me_SS_Nuker (10-15) on a mesmer (5-15).

mesmers can do shutdown pretty damn well, while necros will deal the highest sustained dps of anything, look at the popularity of minion masters

upier · Dec 22, 2006, 11:12 AM // 11:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terra Xin

Energy Drain is only conditional when the target has energy for you to drain. When you deny targets, they can't use skills against you. Signet of lost souls has a -50% HP requirement. You intentionally completely ignore this.

.... Yeah. Take out healing breeze, bad skill that one is. Also, useless to have power spike and backfire in the same builds, they counter each other.

just a few things that bothered me:
ps and backfire only counter eachother is the caster is stupid enough to use them on the same target (that is - if the caster uses ps on the target that is under the effect of backfire). but just being in the same build they work nicely.

and Signet of lost Souls has gotta be one of the best pve e-managent skills. healing and energy gain AND its in the primary attribute. sorry - but energy drain in pve is shit. simple and utter shit. it is ballanced for pvp - but in pve - where the effect of ED is realistically the e-gain WITHOUT the e-denial - ED can not justify its long recharge. its shit and SolS is miles ahead of it.

so please could we stop with the blind love for the pve mesmer - the messy in pve is incredibly fun - but the foes arent ballanced for the mesmers skills. the messy works - but in a party of 8 - there are far better options most of the time.

Terra Xin · Dec 22, 2006, 11:39 AM // 11:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

and Signet of lost Souls has gotta be one of the best pve e-managent skills. healing and energy gain AND its in the primary attribute. sorry - but energy drain in pve is shit. simple and utter shit. it is ballanced for pvp - but in pve - where the effect of ED is realistically the e-gain WITHOUT the e-denial - ED can not justify its long recharge. its shit and SolS is miles ahead of it.

I never said that e-drain was better than lost souls, I just pointed out some features of both skills that he failed to touch upon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

so please could we stop with the blind love for the pve mesmer - the messy in pve is incredibly fun - but the foes arent ballanced for the mesmers skills. the messy works - but in a party of 8 - there are far better options most of the time.

The... foes... aren't.... balanced... for mesmer skills? ...what? Of course they aren't that's why the mesmer is able to shut them down so effectively. Yeah, take a warrior over a mesmer anytime, its been done before... its stupid, but its been done.

upier · Dec 22, 2006, 12:07 PM // 12:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terra Xin

The... foes... aren't.... balanced... for mesmer skills? ...what? Of course they aren't that's why the mesmer is able to shut them down so effectively. Yeah, take a warrior over a mesmer anytime, its been done before... its stupid, but its been done.

exactly - thats why e-denial works is the most uber thing ever in pve. zomg - i mean - take spirit shackles! wow - the poor foes!! theyll run out of energy! or take surge/burn - not only will they take 80 damage they will also lose 8 energy!!! or take the whole lovely inspiration line - the energy denial you can do that way - while gaining energy is the most amazing thing ever for pve.
can you imagine!!
the inspiration line is ballanced for pvp. the effect of the skill - e-denial + e-gain justifies its cost, cast time and recharge.
in pve - half the skill is gone. non-existent. the e-denial part doesnt work. and yet the skill have the same recharge, cast time and cost. thats what i mean by 'skills not being balanced for pve'. you get half the skill at a full price.
ohh and where did i say that an additional warrior is a better choice the a messy?