Curse

Xpl0iter · Nov 15, 2006, 04:19 AM // 04:19

hes high on water, dont mind him.

HolyHawk · Nov 15, 2006, 06:50 AM // 06:50

I see your point, Lightning Hell, but some setups, for gvg, required some sort of e-management elite for the mesmer, that is where I meant where thenerf hit us. On the other hand, it just made we look for some more ways to manage energy and freed the elite spot. Boon prots were really strong, but with divert hexes, zealous benediction, blight, and so many of shinning monk elites, I guess they should really consider. Besides, the paragon age is live, they can provide a lot of energy support.

Back on topic, some mesmer elites seem useless to me right now, like hex vortex, and tease. Tease sounded great at first, but it works in %, so I dont think it's that usefull. The 1 enchantment removal from hex vortex is really that worth? Extend conditions also has a kinda big recharge time, fevered dreams makes much better pressure, team wise, than extend do to a single target. Enchanter's conundrum doesn't attract me either. I guess I really liked Signet of Illusions, Power Flux and a lot of other non elite skills; they are also opening more options to make a signet build viable. The mesmers aren't going to be doomed at all, rather, it will select those few who can skillfully play with perception/complexed setups, and play really well with them.

Dragannia · Nov 15, 2006, 09:39 AM // 09:39

Lots of other skills from other professions are useless. The NF Mesmer Elites were lacklustre, but the regular skills made up for them.

Scourgey · Nov 15, 2006, 11:27 AM // 11:27

The problem with mesmer is that most of the counters against other classes are very specific and aren't very useful against many builds.

Most of the nightfall mesmer elites don't really have a place in the current meta-game as mesmers cannot directly counter the effects of paragon's shouts, and it also doesn't help that mass hexes are becoming easier to remove with each chapter.

What mesmers need are counters (and elites!) that can be used in a wide variety of situations. Spiritual pain is a good example of multiple use, able to be used for damage to counter mass spirits or spike damage.

Oh and, our energy management has been nerfed so badly. I end up using glyph of lesser energy for energy management.

Redfeather1975 · Nov 15, 2006, 02:20 PM // 14:20

I feel the same way Scrougey.
I'd be happier if there were less skills that are as situational as they are.
Many skills will never find there way into my builds, because I don't like risking taking skills along that I may never use, unless I come up against a very specific build.

That is my one true complaint here.
Do any of the developers come to these forums? I hope so. It's the only thing I can find about mesmers that can make them very unappealing and it would be nice if that was passed along to the game's dev staff.

Terra Xin · Nov 15, 2006, 09:37 PM // 21:37

Quote:

The mesmers aren't going to be doomed at all, rather, it will select those few who can skillfully play with perception/complexed setups, and play really well with them.

Contradictory statement to your post. All of the Mesmer elite skills you think are useless are more than useful to someone with a skilled eye.

Quote:

Most of the nightfall mesmer elites don't really have a place in the current meta-game as mesmers cannot directly counter the effects of paragon's shouts, and it also doesn't help that mass hexes are becoming easier to remove with each chapter

1. The problem with mass hexes only cripples necromancers. Mesmers do not profess in spreading hexes to every target, but rather to apply a massive amount of hexes onto one target. That's the whole point in the ability to shutting down another class.

2. The Nightfall elites are specified to counter Dervishes and their enchantments. You can easily take out a paragons shouts by sapping their adrenaline or draining their energy (which is very very very effective against a paragon.) You also have to consider that Nightfall is not specifically tailored to be its own counter, otherwise the older two chapters would have no way to defend themselves against these two new classes.

Quote:

What mesmers need are counters (and elites!) that can be used in a wide variety of situations. Spiritual pain is a good example of multiple use, able to be used for damage to counter mass spirits or spike damage.

We have these skills already. The problem is that the Mesmer always focuses on one target, and uses whatever support skills they have on another. Fast Casting enables the profession to multitask. Spiritual Pain is a bad example of multiple use. It does two things, 1. damage 2. kill spirits. Diversion does two things also 1. Diverts the skill 2. shuts down target for 6 seconds. Same thing with Guilt and Shame. Energy Drain does two things 1. Drains energy and 2. Gives you energy in return. Backfire deals damage upon casting and shuts down to save taking damage from casting. Epathy can shut down an attacker, or they will take damage with every hit. Saying Spiritual Pain is any superior in example just means that you don't look into the Mesmer skills as carefully as you should.

Also remember that e-denial will screw over ALL professions, not just monks.

Glyph of Lesser Energy is a good skill, but it's not as helpful if you're running e-denial. In which case, Energy Drain is more effective. If you're using alot of 15e skills then yes, that glyph is more helpful. Keep in mind that it is less effective if you aren't using 15e skills.

*Darcy* · Nov 15, 2006, 10:06 PM // 22:06

@ Scourgey & Redfeather1975 - (sigh) You are missing the point of playing a mesmer. There are general builds that are useful in most situations. But knowledge is king for a mesmer. You have to study your enemies skill usage and pick the most effective against the ones you will target.

The idea is not to be able to wipe out the whole map solo, but to disable the ones who can deal the most damage or the most healing. (After all, you have to leave something for the warrior to do, or they cry and whine. Er, except for my warrior, of course.)

So if I'm going to run into signet users, then I'll take Ignorance (one of the least-used skills), but, unlike Empathy, it would never be an "always there" item on my skill bar.

E-management isn't usually a problem unless you overload your skill bar with 15e skills. A little math can help you decide what skills to bring so your e-demand doesn't outrun your e-regen.

NinjaKai · Nov 16, 2006, 01:29 AM // 01:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darcy

@ Scourgey & Redfeather1975 - (sigh) You are missing the point of playing a mesmer. There are general builds that are useful in most situations. But knowledge is king for a mesmer. You have to study your enemies skill usage and pick the most effective against the ones you will target.

The idea is not to be able to wipe out the whole map solo, but to disable the ones who can deal the most damage or the most healing. (After all, you have to leave something for the warrior to do, or they cry and whine. Er, except for my warrior, of course.)

So if I'm going to run into signet users, then I'll take Ignorance (one of the least-used skills), but, unlike Empathy, it would never be an "always there" item on my skill bar.

E-management isn't usually a problem unless you overload your skill bar with 15e skills. A little math can help you decide what skills to bring so your e-demand doesn't outrun your e-regen.

Agreed. For mesmers preperation and knowledge are the most powerful tools. With these you can effectively make a build to assisst in the area your headed. Though generally picking one type of target is effective. If an area is heavily coated with melee monsters go with whatever anti-melee build you run, same goes for other situations.

Part of being a mesmer is taking a situation and turning the odds in your favor. A basic example would be targetting a the second monk in a group of enemies whilst the other one is being killed. Or stopping that annoying spike elemental thats damaging your party.

As far as shutdown goes. One of the best examples in my opinion is power block. In PvE you can shutdown most of a mods skill bar. In PvP while a target won't have skills in all the same attributes, your bound to atleast shutdown skills that will screw up the targets build.

Mesmers truly are an amazing profession. To say their dying is really an insult to those who enjoy this profession.

Redfeather1975 · Nov 16, 2006, 03:13 AM // 03:13

I'm not saying that mesmers are pooey!
I just feel that there are skills that I would like to see changed so they are more useable by more players.
I'd never take Price of Pride in PVE and I'd never take mantra of flame, earth, ect.. into PVP. If skills like these were given a secondary effect that made them more useable in more than just one specific situation I'd be happier is all.
There was a topic once on who actually uses the mantras of elements in anything but a specific PVE area. I remember that many players were hoping they'd be changed because the only time they'd consider using those mantras was in PVE and only for a specific area.
I hope anyone else out there sees what was meant about wishing that some skills had secondary uses. I'd like to be able to use any mesmer skill in either PVP or PVE.

Apple · Nov 16, 2006, 03:34 AM // 03:34

Quote:

. I'd like to be able to use any mesmer skill in either PVP or PVE.

And i'd like to use Otyugh's Cry, Shock Arrow, Berserker Stance, Called Shot, Peace and Harmony and Infuse Condition. GET IN LINE.

Scourgey · Nov 16, 2006, 03:45 AM // 03:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terra Xin

1. The problem with mass hexes only cripples necromancers. Mesmers do not profess in spreading hexes to every target, but rather to apply a massive amount of hexes onto one target. That's the whole point in the ability to shutting down another class.

2. The Nightfall elites are specified to counter Dervishes and their enchantments. You can easily take out a paragons shouts by sapping their adrenaline or draining their energy (which is very very very effective against a paragon.) You also have to consider that Nightfall is not specifically tailored to be its own counter, otherwise the older two chapters would have no way to defend themselves against these two new classes.

I lost my last reply, but anyway.

1) Divert hexes, expel hexes, blessed light, empathic removal, signet of removal, hex eater signet, Hex breaker aura, Avatar of Dwayna, do I need to go on? When I said mass hex, I did actually mean putting hexes onto one target. Unless you putting 4-5 hexes on the target with these skills in effect, most of them won't be doing much.

2) You can counter the paragon, but this requires full dedication of your time on your part. Where as a necro can put a hex that turns them off until the hex is removed.

You have been mentioning that energy denial works against everything, but don't forget there is a defense against energy denial with every class which is to have a negative energy set.

I would like more spells that will allow the choices we have to be more diverse in skill sets, e.g:

- hex - after 3 seconds, foe takes x damage, ends prematurely if he uses a spell
- hex - after 3 seconds, foe takes x damage, ends prematurely if he attacks
- hex - target foe casts spells 50% slower and has -x armour whilst activating skills.
- signet - 1..x enemy enchantment is transferred to you and 1..x hex is transferred to the enemy.
- hex - the next time foe is interrupted whilst casting a spell, all hexes are renewed by x seconds.

Not saying they are balanced in any way, but you get the idea, I'd like to be able to play around with enemies outside the shutdown, interrupt and energy denial builds. I was quite disappointed with the new nightfall elites, yes they do have uses, but generally other elites from previous chapters are better than them.

For example, visions of regret or empathy? I would pick empathy. In order to build adrenaline, generally you need to attack and that triggers empathy. Visions of regret has the advantage that it can target shouts that use adrenaline, for some nasty damage, but if empathy can shut down the main source of adrenaline gain or do almost as much damage as visions of regret in 2 triggers, why bother with visions of regret? I just don't see visions of regret being enough to warrant it being elite.

Oh to the people saying that you can prepare for missions, I'm referring to PvP, I don't think PvE actually is that hard anyway.

Redfeather1975 · Nov 16, 2006, 03:59 AM // 03:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by [Apple]

And i'd like to use Otyugh's Cry, Shock Arrow, Berserker Stance, Called Shot, Peace and Harmony and Infuse Condition. GET IN LINE.

Sorry Apple. I wasn't trying to piss anyone off. I just was hoping that others felt the same way is all.

Apple · Nov 16, 2006, 04:23 AM // 04:23

Haha, no need to apologise whatsoever, i appreciate your views, it's just that there are more important problems with the game and every single one of the skills you mentioned have a use *somewhere* unlike the ones i mentioned :P

Dean Harper · Nov 16, 2006, 05:17 AM // 05:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ritualistic Spankin

Unfortunately I also agree that the life has been sucked outta the Mesmers. When I first bought Prophecies 16 months ago, everyone was telling me to be a Warrior or a Monk, they all said "don't be a Mesmer, they are too hard to make useful" I chose a mesmer as my first character.

I firmly believe that the Mesmer is the one and only class that forces you to learn about all the other classes just to play it. Needing to know what can and cannot be interrupted, and having to think ahead in a battle to time your spells. There is a counter to every character you face. I loved it, and still do. Choosing a mesmer as my first character gave me a better understanding of all of GW, and definately made me a better player because of it.

It saddens me to play my mesmer only to have to fight and plead my case, and my knowledge of the class JUST to be able to get into a group, be it in PvE or PvP. I was doing a lot of PvP in the RA this weekend and I heard so many times "dammit, we got a [email protected] mes on our team." I don't know if it is people's lack of understanding of the time and commitment it takes to be a good mesmer, or if they just think they are completely useless.

I could type pages of my strong opinions on mesmer's as a class, but I think I have already typed too much, and will start causing boredom.

you just put everything i belive in into words.... Mesmer sure is dieing, but its also the most fun to play. Mesmers just have a kind of appeal to them that NONE of the other classes offer to me. i just wish that people would understand where mesmers are coming from, and realize that they are in fact(if played correctly) the most potent and powerful prof in the game. However, they dont fit in to people's very cynnical opinons of how mesmers dont do the same damage adn fill the same roles as every other profession. They have a greater purpose than jsut doing damage or healing the party. They hinder teh overall opposing team by casting a few spells of degen, or punish dom skills. Now that the mes has a few more damage skills, theyr becoming more of a spike prof in pvp, not the usual edenial or shutdown... Those were the heart and soul of the mesmer, and now its been killed...

-Dean

FalconDance · Nov 16, 2006, 03:30 PM // 15:30

Quote:

For mesmers preperation and knowledge are the most powerful tools.

Surely no one thinks we're just pretty faces and stylish attire!

Oh, and I checked on my youngest mesmer yesterday. She seems to be feeling quite well, but if she's on Death's threshhold, she'll at least be beautiful when she crosses over!

Sophitia Leafblade · Nov 16, 2006, 03:47 PM // 15:47

i dont think mesmers are dieing theve always been the least used char type, they are effectivly the anti other class class, yes i know u could say taht all types can be that also, but that is what the mesmer is best at - countering others, be it melee or caster. Mesmer get shunned not because they are dislike but more because they are the unknown class, wheni 1st played gw i had never heard of hte concept of a mesmer, ofc that soon changed. But they are still un unknown class, everyones heard of Warriors watch any Fantasy film as u see a Warrior so natuarlly in game nearly every one has a Warrior, everyone knows that monks are the core of most partys and so monks are common, everyone knows elementalist have the coolest spells and are intented to be the big hitters of the game all u need to do is watch Cynn use Firestorm for the 1st time like in the cinematic, everyone knows what a ranger is, its a warrior who uses a bow and liek the wilderness most fantasy films have them and most are normally elvin, most people love the look of Necros and know they they are based around death which is cool so people like to hve necros and so forth, but people especially newer players look at a mesmer and think thats that? and so they simply play with what they know.

Arcanis the Omnipotent · Nov 16, 2006, 03:56 PM // 15:56

What's funny? You're going by looks and knowing exactly what they are meant to do by that.

If you have ever read the Prophecies CE Art Book, you'd know Mesmers were originally a Sorceror class, and had that Old Man Gandalf look.

Anet opted for a more sophisticated and handsome look instead.

Kriel Drache · Nov 17, 2006, 07:02 PM // 19:02

I sincerely doubt we'll ever see the Mesmer die out. True, they aren't the most popular class, but from what I've seen on these forums, those that play a Mesmer enjoy it more than most any other class. There will always be Mesmers and in the unlikely event we do die out, we'll go out doing the two things Mesmers have always been doing: raising our enemies' blood pressures through the stratosphere and looking good doing it.

Dragannia · Nov 18, 2006, 12:18 AM // 00:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redfeather1975

I'm not saying that mesmers are pooey!
I just feel that there are skills that I would like to see changed so they are more useable by more players.
I'd never take Price of Pride in PVE and I'd never take mantra of flame, earth, ect.. into PVP. If skills like these were given a secondary effect that made them more useable in more than just one specific situation I'd be happier is all.
There was a topic once on who actually uses the mantras of elements in anything but a specific PVE area. I remember that many players were hoping they'd be changed because the only time they'd consider using those mantras was in PVE and only for a specific area.
I hope anyone else out there sees what was meant about wishing that some skills had secondary uses. I'd like to be able to use any mesmer skill in either PVP or PVE.

There are plenty of skills which can only be used more effectively in PvE than PvP, sometimes being outright useless in PvP, and vice versa. Take Doylak Signet as an example.

LightningHell · Nov 18, 2006, 04:11 AM // 04:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragannia

There are plenty of skills which can only be used more effectively in PvE than PvP, sometimes being outright useless in PvP, and vice versa. Take Doylak Signet as an example.

Add in Backfire, and Empathy.