Curse

Redfeather1975 · Feb 15, 2007, 09:59 AM // 09:59

Yes the Mind Wrack suggestion was a clumsy grasp at trying to make it more PvE versatile. I stink badly at this.

BTW, if you aren't too picky about how much energy you get and you don't care about your secondary or are running a Me/D for any reason...Pious Haste+Mantra of Recall on your bar is pretty versatile. Pious is a very nice run buff for general 'non-farming' PvE and if you need to get Recall to end faster you can sac the 5 energy for Pious Haste to get the energy return in 5 seconds instead of 20. It's too bad Mantra of Recall isn't a stance. It would own funky town then!

Edit: Shanaeri Rynale, an AOE e-management skill would be wonderful but it would, like you suggested, HAVE to be in fast casting. It would get nerfed in days from farming use with Me secondaries. lol

*Darcy* · Feb 15, 2007, 03:31 PM // 15:31

If the point is to make mesmers more wanted/popular in PvE, then we need to list the reasons people don't want to play one or invite into a group. I can think of the following:

die too much
no direct damage
poor self-healing
can't figure out how to play one

Can anyone add more reasons? Or improve the complaint descriptions?

=DNC=Trucker · Feb 15, 2007, 09:36 PM // 21:36

I would love to see some more stuff in FC. Only 5-6 skills in the line is just not enough. (i've been finding it hard to boost fast casting over 6-8 points lately - it has become my 'dump rest of points in FC' attribute)

1 Idea: Ench Spell - For X sec, target other ally casts spells X...X% faster.

Also, with the new symbolic skills in FC, I think there should be more signets to use? no? There are tons of signets in the game, but they are spread across so many attributes its very tough to make a viable build. : Signet of Illusions : your next spell or signet uses your illusion attribute?

the_jos · Feb 15, 2007, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Quote:

Can anyone add more reasons? Or improve the complaint descriptions?

The single reason I can think of is that mesmers can't do AoE damage.

No direct damage -> no AoE damage (Inneptitude and Backfire really hurt)
Remember, Mesmers do armor ignoring damage.

The rest of the reasons has to do with the player and therefore goes for most professions.
That is, any build out of the 'standard' builds found on wiki and the like.

My main problem with mesmer in PvE is that the mesmer depends a lot on the group to maximize performance.
I run two builds most of the time (one dom, one illu), because the other builds I have are very specific and require team coordination.
With guild, you can have that. But not with PuG.
It's not the SF ele that can spam spells, not the MM that just has to raise them, not the warrior that can hit anything and get credit for that.
The only profession that has the same problem is the assassin.
In the right team, it's a killer. In the wrong (like many PuG's) it's just not as good as W, MM or SF.
Both are single target professions and PvE is just a lot of large groups of enemies.

*Darcy* · Feb 16, 2007, 12:08 AM // 00:08

Well if "no direct damage" is the problem, it is NOT going to go away. The mesmer is/was not designed for direct damage, but to spread the damage around while avoiding becoming a target.

If the devs change those basic facts, they will have changed the mesmer into a different profession.

IMO, it is impossible (in most cases) to get a mob grouped enough for AoE to be really effective. All of the other profs are complaining about the AI, except the mesmer. Why, because the mesmer doesn't need them grouped to produce the desired effect. A mesmer doesn't need to lock onto a target and chase them around until they have gotten you to aggro every foe in the area.

Adjust some skills - yes
Move/Create skills in Fast Casting - yes
Turn mesmer into a poor copy of another profession - NO

pingu666 · Feb 16, 2007, 05:33 AM // 05:33

give mesmer some good energy management, right now without /E and GoLE a mesmer has pretty awful energy management skills.

Redfeather1975 · Feb 16, 2007, 07:11 PM // 19:11

I've heard suggestions that different User Interface additions be given to different classes in PVE.
A necromance would have 1 for keeping track and targeting minions in PVE.
A ritualist would have 1 also for their spirits.

Maybe a mesmer can have a PVE window that shows enemies and their warmup bars for skills being used to see the flow of battle easier. Mesmers can make a big difference with that kind of sight!

the_jos · Feb 16, 2007, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Quote:

Turn mesmer into a poor copy of another profession - NO

I agree.
But the game mechanics in PvE don't support the role the mesmer has.
For example, during the tripple green weekend I did some Sunreach farming with my fellow guildmates.
It's easy, have a (good) tank aggro the group.
Have an Ele unleash hell on them.
Have a monk heal the tank (and perhaps Ele).
That's 3 man killing a large group of enemies without too much trouble.
The same goes for Deep.
In Urgoz, you 'just' trap the huge mobs.
And finish them with your Ele.

That's what many area's of PvE are about.
Large groups of enemies doing huge amounts of damage.
And they lock on target and don't let go.
So you can block them with your tank or a couple of minions and nuke them to death.

Compare that to PvP, where Mesmer and Sin do add value.
Those areas don't rely on heavy damage focusing on a single heavy armored enemy.
They prey on one partymember to make a mistake (warrior that get's out of monk's reach, caster that gets too close).
Or they focus on total team pressure.

If A-net wants to add real value PvE value to the Mesmer, they should change some basic game principles.
With the current AI, the team can just rush to the monk most of the time, finish him off and proceed with the rest of the enemies which are then unprotected.
So at first, we add a res sig to all enemies. 'Priority' randomize the cast where enemies far away from possible disrupters have more priority.
One dead monk does not mean a lost fight anymore.
Furthermore, we snare all heavy armors that rush towards the monk and immediately focus on their casters.
Those casters are suddenly prey, because their tanks cannot protect them.
Of cource, the monks are first target. Not only to kill them, but to put pressure on the whole team.
We add some Powerblock mesmer enemies, so we can disable most monks with a single spell. That adds even more pressure. And of cource we add some diversion to pressure them even more.
Or say hello to mister Inneptitude mesmer that just disables the tank that finally got rid of his snare. And put Clumsiness on him as well to interrupt his next attack (blinded or not, it will be there).

In those situations, mesmers and sins could make the difference.

But, I think a large group of players will stop playing and complain all over guru and other forums because the game got too hard for them.

Pick Me · Feb 16, 2007, 08:22 PM // 20:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redfeather1975

I've heard suggestions that different User Interface additions be given to different classes in PVE.
A necromance would have 1 for keeping track and targeting minions in PVE.
A ritualist would have 1 also for their spirits.

Maybe a mesmer can have a PVE window that shows enemies and their warmup bars for skills being used to see the flow of battle easier. Mesmers can make a big difference with that kind of sight!

Too many windows!!! Window for party, window for your skills, window for Mming (if you are a MM/Me or Rit/Me or Me/Rit or Me/N), and a window for other targets (which could be a lot).

Direct Damage - Dominaton has at least 2 direct damaging spells, Illusion has several health degen spells (direct damage over time).

Chaos Storm and a few other spells are (admittingly small) AoE. If you want AoE, be an Elementalist.

If you want direct damage, be anything but a Monk, Mesmer, or Necromancer.

Everyone can do direct damage, but not everyone is good at doing so. Mesmers have their own place, and thus, it isn't for everyone.

I like my Mesmer, she helps whatever party she's in a lot. Not many may appreciate a Mesmer in the group, but believe me, you can do a lot worse than having one there.

Redfeather1975 · Feb 17, 2007, 02:28 PM // 14:28

Dark Emissary suggested that some Mantras be tweaked and changed to shouts, or even chants. Mesmers already have stance and enchantment Mantras, but a mantra is defined as a chant and it would be fitting to change some to a chant or shout, allowing it to affect party members within earshot. It would make Inspiration mesmers very useful to PvE groups and my mesmer would probably get into Domain of Anguish groups!

Patrick Smit · Feb 17, 2007, 02:35 PM // 14:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by pingu666

give mesmer some good energy management, right now without /E and GoLE a mesmer has pretty awful energy management skills.

I'm almost never short in energy, but maybe you don't use inspiration to compensate for overly expensive spells or spamming

czincz · Feb 17, 2007, 02:54 PM // 14:54

few suggestions:

1)Empathy:

every time hexed foe attacks, he and all adjacent foes take the damage

2)Power Spike:

if target foe is casting a spell, spell is interrupted, foe takes the 102 dmg, nearby foes take 75 dmg (16 domination).

3)Spiritual Pain

target foe and all nearby foes take 50 damage (at 16 domination), if this spell hit a spirit it recharges instantly

specs changed to ---> energy:5 casting time:2 recharge:15

4)Cry of frustration

Reduce the recharge to 15 seconds

5)Ineptitude

For 10 seconds, the next time hexed foe attacks, he is blinded for 10 seconds and that foe and all nearby foes take 120 damage (damage at 16 illusion)

6)Clumsiness

For 10 seconds, the next time target foea attacks that foe is interrupted and that foe and all nearby foes take 97 dmg (16 ill)

7)Conjure Nightmare

Decrease degen to -5, increase range to adjacent

8)Panic

add damage on every skill use, not just signets, and decrease it a bit

9)Inspired/Revealed hex: move to fastcasting

10) Drain Enchantment: move to fastcasting

11) Add one more self heal to inspiration (suggestion: +5 regen stance that lasts 10 seconds and recharges in 25) and some energy management skills to fastcasting

12)New skill idea to make signet builds viable:

Ether Gift
5 energy 1 second cast 15 recharge
Enchantment spell. Lose all energy. For 10 seconds target ally experiences +1..4 energy regeneration

13) Move ether signet to fastcasting and decrease it recharge time to 45 seconds

frojack · Feb 18, 2007, 07:54 AM // 07:54

I just want to say that I'm a recent mesmer convert. I always respected their power in PvP but never thought much of them in PvE... Until I made one.

There is nothing wrong with them in either forms of play. Occasionally it can take some time to get them going but when their damage begins, things die very quickly.

That's all I have to say...

bilwit · Feb 18, 2007, 07:59 AM // 07:59

I'd like to see an uber degen elite skill - an elite, less costing, version of Conjure Nightmare.

Helcaraxe · Feb 18, 2007, 08:51 AM // 08:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by bilwit

I'd like to see an uber degen elite skill - an elite, less costing, version of Conjure Nightmare.

its called illusion of pain, spammable. and if you re-apply it before it ends the healing doesnt take effect.

Also I'd like to see a change to IW...

Illusionary Weaponry: For 30 seconds whenever you would deal physical damage, you instead deal no damage and your target takes (whatever the current damage numbers are).

Redfeather1975 · Feb 18, 2007, 01:49 PM // 13:49

I think Frojack that after some time playing a mesmer you might wish there was some more to do in PvE with them.
I've pretty much always run conditional damage/interrupt in all my PVE builds as those feel to be the only effective PvE options I have at the moment and am struggling to find another type of playstyle that doesn't rely on a secondary.
With my ranger and ritualist however, the sky is the limit as to what playstyle I can have in PvE!
I really like those two proffessions more and more.

RVallant · Feb 18, 2007, 05:15 PM // 17:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helcaraxe

its called illusion of pain, spammable. and if you re-apply it before it ends the healing doesnt take effect.

Also I'd like to see a change to IW...

Illusionary Weaponry: For 30 seconds whenever you would deal physical damage, you instead deal no damage and your target takes (whatever the current damage numbers are).

There goes the IW builds =x

I'm running through PVE with a mesmer myself from Prophecies so I can get the hang of the profession, since while I've always liked the idea and I always understood the potency and dangers of a mesmer, I've found them to be very situational. They're really focused classes and PVE simply has too many groups of varying amounts for anyone to run a one-make build.

I run a build so far with three melee shutdowns, three caster shutdowns and two energy recovering/healing spells, it's a really tough choice because with henchmen (since no one accepted me in the mission parties for ASCALON missions for christ sake...) you have to focus their attacks while, dishing out your role of shutting down/causing damage. At the moment all I have is Empathy and Backfire to wipe the floor with mobs, which means at best two enemy units bite the dust and Stefan/Alesia can't tank worth crap.

I theorise if I was with someone out there they'd steamroll through the entire group, at best my capabilites are limited. I'm expecting to do better once more skills open up but after reading all the bad-press on PVE mesmers I'm wondering what I've done by making this guy! (given myself a hard time probably! xD)

FoxBat · Feb 18, 2007, 05:32 PM // 17:32

I'd rather they focus on making new chapters less suceptible to AoE damage. A lot of skills are ignored as a result of this. Fewer/tougher mobs would help.

One AI improvement that could be applied everywhere: AIs need proactive positioning, not reactive. they need to avoid bunching up in the first place (like good PvPers) rather than running when they get punished for it. All non-melee monsters should have some AI like "if I am standing adjacent to 2+ allies, move a bit away from them" and melee "if 2 melees are on X target, choose target Y"

Perfected Shadow · Feb 22, 2007, 09:15 AM // 09:15

Hmm inspiration needs to INSPIRE allies not just themselves imo. And after a quick glance at Illusion and Domination skills, I see a lot of 10-15 energy skills, thus requiring Inspiration skills to compensate, which leaves Fast Casting in the dark usually. Bringing Inspiration skills for energy also limits the number of offensive skills you can bring. Eles with energy storage and attunes, Necros with soul reaping, Rangers with expertise, Warriors with adren., Dervish with Mysticism, Paragons with Leadership, Assassins with Crit. Strikes don't suffer from this because their primary attribute allows for decent to superior (even PASSIVE) e-management that don't need a waste of skill slots. So I suggest buff fast casting maybe increase the speed, remove aftercast. And decrease the energy costs of some spells.

Brian the Gladiator · Feb 24, 2007, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Ok, If you want to make a mesmer build you have to think about what the mesmer is really good at. From what I know and all my experience in Guild Wars, mesmers are meant to shut down their opponents and depending on what the enemy's purpose is, mesmers generally aren't a great option in pve because shutting down one single NPC doesnt seem too important

(AoE is the biggest part of the best damage soarces in pve builds)

So, sence using a mesmer isn't as usefull as hoped, what other purposes can they have?

My answer is...
Fast Casting! Now the question is, What kind of builds could benefit from this ability? Obviously they would need to use long casting spells that will have their casting time reduced in order to improve the overall usability of the spells.

And when you think of long casting spells, your first thought goes directly to Elementalist damage (or at least it should).

Fast Cast Nuker:
[skill]Fireball[/skill][skill]Rodgort's Invocation[/skill][skill]Searing Heat[/skill][skill]Arcane Echo[/skill][skill]Meteor Shower[/skill][skill]Fire Attunement[/skill][skill]Elemental Attunement[/skill][skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill]

Attributes:
Fast Casting --> 12+3+1
Fire Magic --> 12

Equiptment:
I personally use Rago's Flame Staff. I know that this can be expensive so any fire weapons will work juat as long as they have a 20% enchantment mod on it. The reason why you wont this mod is because Elemental Attunement falls under the "Energy Storage" Attribute which mesmers cant use and you need that to last as long as possible.

EDIT: Removing aftercast would unbalance the game because a lot of skills don't have recharge and it would cause for a massive amount of mesmers using fast casting to "spam" these skills and spiking enemies on their own. (example: Team Arena Spike GLF - Fast Cast Flair Spiker - Invite Self)