Curse

Verteiron · Apr 05, 2007, 06:22 PM // 18:22

I'm sure there have been other threads like this, but I'm posting this one because I want to make sure that Anet sees it while they are reading responses to the skill update thread. This message is addressed to Arenanet.

Disclaimer: Everything written here is specific to PvE. PvP is of only marginal interest to me and I can't bring any experience to the table regarding it.

My second character is a mesmer primary, and I have played him pretty much since GW began. I'm pretty good at it, and those I party with tend to agree with me. Of course, getting -into- a party in the first place is pretty difficult, and that's part of the point I want to discuss. Mesmer primaries -do- have a hard time getting into parties, even on missions where there is "room" in the party and a mesmer's skills might come in handy. This is mostly due to the perception that mesmer primaries are not as useful as other classes. Unfortunately, this perception seems to become closer to reality with every skill update.

There are going to be a few people who say, "Mesmers rock, I ALWAYS make sure I have one in my party!". But for every one who says that, I think there are going to be several others who agree that, on the whole, they'd be better off with a third ele. After all, my mesmer is my favorite character, and even I'm inclined to agree with them.

Mesmer primaries are now seen as, at best, unnecessary and, at worst, useless. The falling mesmer population is pretty good evidence of this. The Anet artists who designed the Nightfall mesmer gear must be disappointed that so few people ever get to see it.

Now, of the mesmer skills that received nerfs in this most recent update, I only make frequent use of one (Diversion, if you want to know). But I'm not upset because you've nerfed "my" build. I'm upset because the mesmer, one of the most genuinely innovative classes ever to grace a multiplayer game, is now seen as being even -less- useful. Fewer people will be inclined to try the class. That means that fewer successful build combinations will be discovered, which means that still fewer people will want a mesmer in their party when they could bring a more useful primary like an elementalist or a ranger. And when a good mesmer can't get into a party for love or money, that's discouraging, even for the class's "true believers" like myself.

I hear tell that most of the mesmer nerfs are the result of PvP balancing. That's all well and good, but... are you sure you're taking into account the effect those nerfs have on PvE?

Please, Arenanet, buff the mesmer. I know you can do it. I'm sure there are tons of ideas on how to do so, and if not, I'm sure a few will be posted here. A good place to start would be making Fast Casting more useful. Maybe it should reduce recharge time as well as casting time. I'm sure that's not a new idea, either. It would certainly make the mesmer primary a more attractive class, and go a long way toward pulling the class out of the downward spiral it seems trapped in right now. It's going to take time, but if the class is made more useful to a party I'm sure it can be done.

And before people flame me for being down on mesmers, remember that I -play- one, often, and these are things I've observed first-hand and heard other mesmers complain about.

Darth Kukulkan · Apr 05, 2007, 06:34 PM // 18:34

you are in the right guy, I never played a mesmer in PvE, but I can imagine how painfull it should be now :s
It's the thrid class i would have created, but nerf other nerf it's a bit disgusting :x
IM(not humble)O, Elite PvE/P is just killing the rest of the game, which represent 90% of it. The constant need of balance is clear, but it's not compatible with normal PvE balance, the game is not meant for this.
On one word, the "spirit" of GW is gone

RiP

samcobra · Apr 05, 2007, 06:45 PM // 18:45

This is because PvE is inherently imbalanced.

See thread here.

Sirocco Starluck · Apr 05, 2007, 06:56 PM // 18:56

I hate it when people promote their own threads using other people's. >> That's just bad form.

Anyway, off my soapbox, I see lots of Mesmer secondaries and lots of wiki'ed builds using it as secondary. But as of late there doesn't seem to be any inherent incentive to have it as a primary. It makes me wonder if the Mesmer became grandfathered. Are there any skills from other professions that do the same thing Mesmer skills do?

Rakeman · Apr 05, 2007, 07:00 PM // 19:00

Maybe Mesmers, Paragons, and Necros (assuming the SR changes go through) should form a grand coalition, demanding fixing the profession!

Verteiron · Apr 05, 2007, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by samcobra

This is because PvE is inherently imbalanced.

Actually it has little to do with whether PvE is balanced, and a lot to do with whether Mesmers are as generally useful as other classes. Your "imbalance" thread is interesting, and will garner plenty of attention without linking to it from mine in a contentless reply. Thanks for playing, though.

Sirocco Starluck · Apr 05, 2007, 07:01 PM // 19:01

You mean the tar, feathers, torches, and pitchforks....? I'm not sure how ANet would react to that. Angry mob or civil discussion, which is more affective because I'll try whichever. LMAO

SpeedyKQ · Apr 05, 2007, 07:02 PM // 19:02

Along similar lines, even the PVE story writers see mesmers as second class citizens. Look at the core NPC protagonists - Mhenlo, Eve, Cynn, Aidan, and Devona. Every original profession is there except mesmer. Look at Nightfall heroes - there are 2 of every core profession, 1 of every expansion profession - with 1 exception - only 1 mesmer. And that one mesmer, Norgu, is a laughing stock. The storlyline does nothing but poke fun at him for being a self-centered, incompetent glutton. None of the three chapters give us anything like a real heroic mesmer character.

Anyways, not to hijack the thread. I'm hoping we still see an improvement for PVE mesmers skills-wise. Maybe the upcoming PVE-only skills will have something.

Sirocco Starluck · Apr 05, 2007, 07:10 PM // 19:10

On that tangent I'm all for that, as well. Why are Mesmers depicted as washed out actors in Nightfall? Even mindless Goren packs more punch than Norgu. I'm not saying "Glorify the Mesmers", no one class should be the ultimate class to be.

I knew ages ago that Mesmers were designed to compliment other classes, but weren't the Assassins also since they aren't necessarily tanks but they are melee and they aren't ranged like the Rangers. The original intention of the Mesmer was basically what their original description was, but you'd think a guy who could manipulate other people would have more going for him or her.

LONGA · Apr 05, 2007, 07:16 PM // 19:16

Mesmers still be in mystry.Because mesmers are made to counter another profession so their skill bar is specialised.which means hard to predict.
When they come up with foes whose skill set are weak aganist the mesmer skill set.The mesmer can put them down very easy.
Thats why mesmer are hard to balance.But I think Dev team seems to forget what mesmer skill set is lack is versatile.
I think what mesmer need is ability to change skill set during a battle in PvE.

Kook~NBK~ · Apr 05, 2007, 07:19 PM // 19:19

How useful a Mesmer is in PvE boils down to one thing: "How fast can a party get through this mission/quest?" That's the contention of the anti-Mesmer crowd; that a Mesmer in the party will only slow it down. It has nothing to do with success or failure of the mission. (Getting Masters in timed missions excepted. But even then, many Mesmers have protector titles for all 3 campaigns - but I digress)

The general mentality of many, many GW players is "Let's get to the high-end loot as fast as possible." That's why so many people spend the first day or 2 of a chapter's release glued to their computers racing through the campaign to be first to get to the expensive stuff - the sooner you get it, the more you can sell it for! (Victo's bulwark then: 100K +, Victo's Bulwark now: 15 - 20K tops!)

I do like the idea of tying skill recharge to the fast casting attribute. That would be a huge help, especially when it comes to interrupts and spells with 30 second recharge times. What's the use of fast casting when you CAN'T use a skill at all because you're waitng for it to recharge?

EDIT: saw this after I posted:

Quote:

None of the three chapters give us anything like a real heroic mesmer character.

Good Point. I've got my fingers crossed that they're going to make up for it in GW:EN with Gwen!

Siddious · Apr 05, 2007, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpeedyKQ

Along similar lines, even the PVE story writers see mesmers as second class citizens. Look at the core NPC protagonists - Mhenlo, Eve, Cynn, Aidan, and Devona. Every original profession is there except mesmer. Look at Nightfall heroes - there are 2 of every core profession, 1 of every expansion profession - with 1 exception - only 1 mesmer. And that one mesmer, Norgu, is a laughing stock. The storlyline does nothing but poke fun at him for being a self-centered, incompetent glutton. None of the three chapters give us anything like a real heroic mesmer character.

Anyways, not to hijack the thread. I'm hoping we still see an improvement for PVE mesmers skills-wise. Maybe the upcoming PVE-only skills will have something.

So basically ANET treat Mesmers like trash?

Seems correct to me.

Mordakai · Apr 05, 2007, 07:42 PM // 19:42

I was thrilled to read about Signet of Illusion for Nightfall.

Level 16 fast-casting meteor shower; or take Arcane Mimicry and get a level 16 of any Elite!

But, I never made it far enough in Nightfall to actually cap it, and now that Guild Wars 2 is coming, I'm more incline to earn titles with my W/R than to get one more skill for Mysti.

Question: Do any current mesmers use Signet of Illusion, and is it any good?

Edge Martinez · Apr 05, 2007, 07:56 PM // 19:56

It's not just Mesmers. My Mesmer, Assassin and Paragon have become well dressed Xunlai Agents. They're hanging around long enough to be the last ones to finish GWEN, so their armor and crap can continue on in GW2. It's sad, because in PvE I get asked by the people I run with to bring my mesmer, but the second I try to find a pug it's like lol noob.

Verteiron · Apr 05, 2007, 08:36 PM // 20:36

I play an assassin as well, and even he is more welcome in groups than my poor Mesmer. Plus assassins have gotten good buffs in every skill update... Can't tell about Paragons, it's one of two classes I've never played.

Helcaraxe · Apr 05, 2007, 08:59 PM // 20:59

I am also inclined to agree.... if I was a group leader, I wouldn't want a mesmer in my group. Even though my main is my mesmer (approaching 1,000 hours on her alone ^_^).

The problem is that all PvE groups come down to the same basic recipe for success.

-Those who take damage (Warriors, or Minions)
-Those who heal damage (Ritualists, Monks)
-Those who deal damage (Eles, necros, rangers)

In case you didnt notice, the three unloved classes (Mesmer, Sin, and Paragon) don't fit into the recipe. Sure, a mesmer can deal damage.... but the three other classes above do it better. Yeah, a sin could effectively tank... but a warrior could do it better. Paragon? no one knows what the paragon does and therefore they do not fit into the recipe.

-----------------------------------------------------

I'd also like to comment on the recent skill updates... I swear, I didn't think anymore nerfs were possible... I can already see the next nerf

Ineptitude: Increased recharge to 30, Decreased damage to 15...50, Decreased Blind duration to 1...5

And there reasonging will be "This skill was on ever single mesmers bar because we already killed every other elite. Now that we nerfed this one we will have succesfully killed an entire profession"

No, really.... I'm not happy at all about receiving yet another nerf to my PvE class because some idiots are whining about their own lack of skill to defeat enemy mesmer in PvP. A mesmer is built to shutdown people and be a royal pain in the ass, and they do that job wonderfully and then people just complain about imbalance because they could use their skills.... and then the mesmer gets nerfed. It's not our fault that the rest of the community is too RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing stupid to think up slightly original builds to protect themselves from/or counter the enemy mesmers.

Darth Kukulkan · Apr 05, 2007, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Quote:

No, really.... I'm not happy at all about receiving yet another nerf to my PvE class because some idiots are whining about their own lack of skill to defeat enemy mesmer in PvP. A mesmer is built to shutdown people and be a royal pain in the ass, and they do that job wonderfully and then people just complain about imbalance because they could use their skills.... and then the mesmer gets nerfed. It's not our fault that the rest of the community is too RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing stupid to think up slightly original builds to protect themselves from/or counter the enemy mesmers.

I agree with you on that point

Quote:

Paragon? no one knows what the paragon does and therefore they do not fit into the recipe.

Thats a frightening awareness too :s
But you missed Dervishes, who belongs to this category too

And sins are not tanks but damage dealers ! can people understand this finally ?

pingu666 · Apr 05, 2007, 09:46 PM // 21:46

theres also the 15+al when casting armour, but with the mesmer skills (long recharge) plus fast casting make it a curious option

Karomi Saoshi · Apr 05, 2007, 11:31 PM // 23:31

I strongly agree, ppl won't even accept me on my mesmer unless i spam Fc Nuker LFG ...(which ppl still want a regular ele primary)and only if they can't find a *real*nuker will they accept me. Don't get me wrong fc nuking is fun.....when you first try it, but after so many times its boooring. I wish i could play a full mesmer build and have groups want me, which i see will never happen

. I once thought i had a good thing going when i went through nightfall getting groups only if i had spiritual pain in my skillbar, but look now, they nerfed that skill too.

ShadowbaneX · Apr 05, 2007, 11:47 PM // 23:47

I thought that the mesmer's were supposed to get some serious buffs in the PvE department. This update seems to be anything but...