Curse

Biostem · Nov 27, 2007, 09:47 AM // 09:47

Mesmers always came across to me as the big sister that warns you not to do something, knowing you'd do it anyway, then laughs at you as your suffer the consequences.

Necros are like the really annoying younger brother - you are just going about your business and they just make doing that a living hell.

Ele's are the big brother that just comes at you and punches you really hard in the arm.

The others, well... I'm too tired to write more.

Pyro maniac · Nov 27, 2007, 11:24 AM // 11:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

i guess im just not used to playing a class that has everything done for them. necros already have it easy never needing emanagement, but if i have a pug, or even guildies idk that well, i at least feel better with a mesmer thats at end game, or at least in HM, because i feel they have a better grasp of the game regardless.

also, soul reaping is, im sure, quite a treat to have, but all the other classes learn to cope with having to work for their energy, and thats what i'm used to. that doesnt make its utility better that FC, that makes the players lazy.

and btw, curse "utility" is nothing compaired to the utility of domination, and self utility of inspiration. curses offers a few great skills, and a ton of overrated hexes that have made the whole class a very button-mashing style type of class. i still rather have a mesmer. guess thats just me. not like i care.

use a pure mesmer build on your necro
same skills, just better primary = better energy management

the only difference between primary and secondary mesmer is 1 attribute level difference

Leijah · Nov 27, 2007, 12:11 PM // 12:11

Often people don't consider mesmers as valuable team members in PvE because mesmers don't deal as great amount of damage as some other professions nor can they heal. However, a mesmer as a team member can make it a lot easier for the team to kill something by for example shutting down the enemy healers or by making the whole team build to work more effectively. A mesmer can also help the team to survive by preventing the enemy from dealing damage which makes the monks' job a lot easier and in some cases can save the party from death. And while doing all of this mesmers can still deal a nice amount of damage by striking to the enemy's weakest point and turning their actions against themselves.
Some people think that taking a mesmer into a team is sacrificing a damage dealer's team slot that could be filled with a profession that can deal a lot more straight damage than a mesmer. In my opinion there is always a special slot in a team which is reserved for a mesmer, like there is a slot for a tank and a slot or two for healers. Mesmers aren't very comparable to other professions because what they do and how they do it is so different from other professions fighting tactics. The damage mesmers can do to their enemies isn't shown just as numbers.

Magikarp · Nov 27, 2007, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyro maniac

use a pure mesmer build on your necro
same skills, just better primary = better energy management

the only difference between primary and secondary mesmer is 1 attribute level difference

.... annnnnd... the ability to cast any skill considerably faster? a 2 second cast being around 3/4 of a second is kind of a big deal in HM.

not to mention, FC has some really nice elites, and you can't use runes... so yeah.. not even compairable.

you're probably still talking about fully interupting something, and thats the comon argument. "anyone could take the interupts, with no attribues, and still be as effective". thats tripe, and even moreso, not even worth arguing.

Magikarp · Nov 27, 2007, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biostem

Mesmers always came across to me as the big sister that warns you not to do something, knowing you'd do it anyway, then laughs at you as your suffer the consequences.

Necros are like the really annoying younger brother - you are just going about your business and they just make doing that a living hell.

Ele's are the big brother that just comes at you and punches you really hard in the arm.

The others, well... I'm too tired to write more.

mesmers: sassy mom, telling you to do what she says, not what she does.

necros: manic depressive history teacher that would fail you without telling you.

eles: the guy threatening to jump you from your freshman year.

ranger: the hippie who works at the coffee shop

derv: the local born again evangilical conservative

paragon: middle school gym teacher. "go team!"

sin: the naruto loving lil' brother.

monk: chuck norris

rit: creepy gravedigger guy you see in movies...

warrior: abusive dad.

lol i agree though. thats more or less what mesmers do... counter anything the game has to offer...you just have to be ready for it.

upier · Nov 27, 2007, 06:24 PM // 18:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

.... annnnnd... the ability to cast any skill considerably faster? a 2 second cast being around 3/4 of a second is kind of a big deal in HM.

not to mention, FC has some really nice elites, and you can't use runes... so yeah.. not even compairable.

you're probably still talking about fully interupting something, and thats the comon argument. "anyone could take the interupts, with no attribues, and still be as effective". thats tripe, and even moreso, not even worth arguing.

The superb thing about mesmer skills is that they are pretty much as effective at lower levels as they are at high levels.
I am currently running a +1 inspiration headgear on my mesmer and no additional attribute boosting runes. And the mesmer functions as good as it would if I had sup runes. (Why inspiration you ask? I like it .....)
Kinda the only build that I'd imagine that NEEDS runes is MM. 10 minions only possible at 16.
Other then that - 12 (or less even!) is pretty much perfectly fine in most cases. (Unless one goes higher because:
1. of weapon mastery
2. of a breakpoint - which when it comes to a mesmer means 14 because of E-Surge/Burn or Blackout, maybe even higher when running of SoI
3. of because one has points to burn)

Ohh and the ability to cast faster can be achived by running a 20 + 20 wand/foci or staff.
You're at 36% of casting at half speed IF that is really that important. But trust me - it isn't. It's just nice.

The best skill that FC has is Power Return if you need a sweet interrupt.
MoR used to be pretty sweet - but is quite outclassed by Assassin's Promise. Because in most of PvE - the party targets a foe and that foe dies in 5-10 secs. And AP exploits that.

On-topic:
Sure, make a mesmer if you like the way they function.
Although remember to play it for fun - because if the mesmer isn't fun - it's (relatively) nothing in PvE.
But if you like the mesmer kind of fun - it's one hell of a class!

arcady · Nov 27, 2007, 06:25 PM // 18:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

Take for example a skill like Migraine.
AI could not care less if spell casting takes 100% longer.
Put the same spell on a human and he knows he's in trouble if he can't get it off. He's open to interrupts or his allies are vulnerable to spikes if it's a monk.
That puts pressure on him, causing possible mistakes.

That's one reason why a Mesmer is so powerful in PvE. The AI will try to cast that skill anyway, rather than switch tactics. Thus shutting it down by wasting its time. Mesmer in PvE is very powerful because you can predict the AI, and make a build that will slow and shutdown the AI without having to go after everything the AI -could- do.

With a human player, you have to address everything they could do, which is near endless even if they ping their build to you ahead of the match. With the AI, you only need to address what you know it will do.

arcady · Nov 27, 2007, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

.... annnnnd... the ability to cast any skill considerably faster? a 2 second cast being around 3/4 of a second is kind of a big deal in HM.

Even better in NM. I love shutting down half the enemy line before the charging Wa/Mo can even get into range to get us all killed...

Though I have had them lol at me before and call me a noob for switching targets so much.

Omniclasm · Nov 27, 2007, 09:12 PM // 21:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

except a mesmer would cast enfeebling faster, and depending on the build, have way more utility to offer.

i guess if you're mindlessly spamming spiteful spirit you might kill something as a necro, otherwise, let a real player do something of actual use. tbh, an ele could take that with 8 curses for the same effect, so big deal.

Can I ask what utility that a Mesmer offers in PvE? Interrupts are about it, and well, a necromancer can do that just as well with Power Return.

And are you going with the "Mesmer takes skill to play"? Yeah...instead of using Spiteful Spirit on two different melee, a Mesmer uses Empathy on a melee and Backfire on a caster. That takes unreal skill. Or does this skill come from Conjure -> Tab -> Conjure -> Tab? Interrupting? Other classes interrupt too, so that doesn't really mean much...if ANYTHING, it means that a Mesmer takes less skill to interrupt, since they are slightly faster. So what exactly takes this god awful amount of skill to use?

Age · Nov 27, 2007, 10:20 PM // 22:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Proff

That's not the why, the reason is because gw is full of people like you. Seriously as if necroes are crutial to a group, anything in the game can be done easily without a necro in your party. I've done a bunch of the elite areas with mesmers in the party and always finished with no wipes. Maybe that's because they aren't played by idiots and can play as a team instead of spamming wiki builds with no idea of what the spells are good for.

No wipes well I almost had one getting the masters at The Gate of Madness mission I noticed the Mesmer using Signet of Judgment and a few other bad skill.I never saw this template just noticed the skill well clicking on him to protect him/her.I was hoping for empathy as we had no Necro to throw on insidouse parasite.

Magikarp · Nov 27, 2007, 10:34 PM // 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omniclasm

Can I ask what utility that a Mesmer offers in PvE? Interrupts are about it, and well, a necromancer can do that just as well with Power Return.

And are you going with the "Mesmer takes skill to play"? Yeah...instead of using Spiteful Spirit on two different melee, a Mesmer uses Empathy on a melee and Backfire on a caster. That takes unreal skill. Or does this skill come from Conjure -> Tab -> Conjure -> Tab? Interrupting? Other classes interrupt too, so that doesn't really mean much...if ANYTHING, it means that a Mesmer takes less skill to interrupt, since they are slightly faster. So what exactly takes this god awful amount of skill to use?

unlike ranger interrupts, aftercasting slows down interrupts, but i guess you're the master, so there's no use in telling you that.

also, not everyone uses skills like backfire, or even the utility of interrupts as a mesmer period. the funny thing is, if you knew anything about the game, you can counter anything if you know whats in the area you're going to be going, and no necro can do that like a mesmer, period. in HM, unless you're playing a different game, nothing owns dungeon bosses like MoR double diversion, and even moreso, we can interrupt like lightning on top of it.

i personally played almost any variant of a caster you can think of, from an 8 man mesmer team in the UW as a FC monk, to FC nuke in AB, to Domination Lord in DoA. you have to know how to play to even compare yourself to the mesmer class, and if you think we spam conjures, and backfire, you dont know enough good mesmers. good luck playing a game you dont even understand.

Omniclasm · Nov 27, 2007, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

unlike ranger interrupts, aftercasting slows down interrupts, but i guess you're the master, so there's no use in telling you that.

Yeah...shame that Mesmers have an aftercast too....

Quote:

also, not everyone uses skills like backfire, or even the utility of interrupts as a mesmer period. the funny thing is, if you knew anything about the game, you can counter anything if you know whats in the area you're going to be going, and no necro can do that like a mesmer, period.

Explain how a Mesmer counters physical damage better than a Necromancer?
Hell, explain how a Mesmer counters casters better than a N/Me could, without interrupts since a N/Me could use them just as well?

Now can that Mesmer do both of them, and still do decent damage?

A Mesmer can't shutdown physicals as good as a Necromancer can.
A Mesmer can sort of shutdown a caster better than a Necromancer, but a Necromancer can just put Power Return on their bar and do just as well as the Mesmer.
A Mesmer can't do as much damage as a Necromancer.

To top it off, a Necromancer can do all of this in the same build.

Quote:

in HM, unless you're playing a different game, nothing owns dungeon bosses like MoR double diversion, and even moreso, we can interrupt like lightning on top of it.

That depends on which boss you are fighting....
Spamming Diversion does very little against Murakai.
Spamming Diversion does very little against Frostmaw.
Spamming Diversion does very little against Cyndr, even though disabling Flame Burst is a slight advantage.

Interrupting like lightning...hmmm. Rangers can reliably interrupt 1 second cast spells when they are good. A Mesmer isn't going to interrupt 1/2 second spells without getting lucky. Making an interrupt 1/8 second cast instead of 1/4 is kind of insignificant.

Quote:

i personally played almost any variant of a caster you can think of, from an 8 man mesmer team in the UW as a FC monk, to FC nuke in AB, to Domination Lord in DoA. you have to know how to play to even compare yourself to the mesmer class, and if you think we spam conjures, and backfire, you dont know enough good mesmers. good luck playing a game you dont even understand.

And I have played every character through all campaigns, except GW:EN, which I have only finished with my Paragon and Mesmer. I have Vanquished a few places with all of my characters.

I like how you throw around the inexperienced insult. I don't understand the game? I think you might be the one that does not my friend.

I'm not saying Mesmers are bad in PvP, they own in PvP.

I am saying that most of a Mesmers advantages are nothing in PvE.

Interrupts....any character can do.
E-Drain....monsters have near infinite energy anyway.
E-Denial....read above

Diversion....can't be spread around enough to stop anything significant. Monsters rarely spam strong spells, and most of the time, the threatening spells only get cast once before they die anyway. Not to mention that 90% of the monster groups have weak defense, so shutting down a monks spell is rarely important.

Fast Casting...while beneficial...Theres not much need to cast a weaker version of a spell sooner, you don't have much risk of being interrupted.

Magikarp · Nov 27, 2007, 11:28 PM // 23:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omniclasm

Yeah...shame that Mesmers have an aftercast too....

Explain how a Mesmer counters physical damage better than a Necromancer?
Hell, explain how a Mesmer counters casters better than a N/Me could, without interrupts since a N/Me could use them just as well?

Now can that Mesmer do both of them, and still do decent damage?

A Mesmer can't shutdown physicals as good as a Necromancer can.
A Mesmer can sort of shutdown a caster better than a Necromancer, but a Necromancer can just put Power Return on their bar and do just as well as the Mesmer.
A Mesmer can't do as much damage as a Necromancer.

To top it off, a Necromancer can do all of this in the same build.

That depends on which boss you are fighting....
Spamming Diversion does very little against Murakai.
Spamming Diversion does very little against Frostmaw.
Spamming Diversion does very little against Cyndr, even though disabling Flame Burst is a slight advantage.

Interrupting like lightning...hmmm. Rangers can reliably interrupt 1 second cast spells when they are good. A Mesmer isn't going to interrupt 1/2 second spells without getting lucky. Making an interrupt 1/8 second cast instead of 1/4 is kind of insignificant.

And I have played every character through all campaigns, except GW:EN, which I have only finished with my Paragon and Mesmer. I have Vanquished a few places with all of my characters.

I like how you throw around the inexperienced insult. I don't understand the game? I think you might be the one that does not my friend.

I'm not saying Mesmers are bad in PvP, they own in PvP.

I am saying that most of a Mesmers advantages are nothing in PvE.

Interrupts....any character can do.
E-Drain....monsters have near infinite energy anyway.
E-Denial....read above

Diversion....can't be spread around enough to stop anything significant. Monsters rarely spam strong spells, and most of the time, the threatening spells only get cast once before they die anyway. Not to mention that 90% of the monster groups have weak defense, so shutting down a monks spell is rarely important.

Fast Casting...while beneficial...Theres not much need to cast a weaker version of a spell sooner, you don't have much risk of being interrupted.

both shame and guilt stop skills that you cant normally stop on your own, and mesmers use any necro skill just as good as a necro, but faster, and with skills that can shorten their recharge, allowing many more uses of them... all on the same bar. sig of illusions gives you so many options that no other class can even pull off, its not even worth going into, and tbh, i dont use power return in pve, so go ahead, use it all you want.

i pick mesmer over necro, in pve, and deffinitly in pvp, so maybe thats just me, but thats why we all have opinions. i find FC better than built in energy the i learned to control with any other caster class.

Sab · Nov 28, 2007, 12:52 AM // 00:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

both shame and guilt stop skills that you cant normally stop on your own, and mesmers use any necro skill just as good as a necro, but faster, and with skills that can shorten their recharge, allowing many more uses of them... all on the same bar. sig of illusions gives you so many options that no other class can even pull off, its not even worth going into, and tbh, i dont use power return in pve, so go ahead, use it all you want.

i pick mesmer over necro, in pve, and deffinitly in pvp, so maybe thats just me, but thats why we all have opinions. i find FC better than built in energy the i learned to control with any other caster class.

- Shame and Guilt are bad in PvE. Mobs will just recast whatever they were going to cast.
- Necros can use runes. 14 spec > 12 spec.
- Casting faster does not matter in PvE.
- Using MoR or Sig of Illusions means you're giving up your elite slot so you can use non-elite spells a little better. That would be fine if there were no viable elites, but there's always SS.
- Soul Reaping is the best energy management option in PvE.

Omniclasm · Nov 28, 2007, 01:03 AM // 01:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

- Shame and Guilt are bad in PvE. Mobs will just recast whatever they were going to cast.
- Necros can use runes. 14 spec > 12 spec.
- Casting faster does not matter in PvE.
- Using MoR or Sig of Illusions means you're giving up your elite slot so you can use non-elite spells a little better. That would be fine if there were no viable elites, but there's always SS.
- Soul Reaping is the best energy management option in PvE.

Careful...you will get the, "you don't know how to play the game, so you can't talk about the mesmer class"

Dodo The Extinct · Nov 28, 2007, 01:40 AM // 01:40

Quote:

A Mesmer can sort of shutdown a caster better than a Necromancer, but a Necromancer can just put Power Return on their bar and do just as well as the Mesmer.

A Necromancer cannot inturrupt as well as a Mesmer with Power Return. Mesmers have Migraine, Power Block and other skills that aid with Inturruption. A Necro with Power Return cannot compete on the same level.

Omniclasm · Nov 28, 2007, 01:44 AM // 01:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dodo The Extinct

A Necromancer cannot inturrupt as well as a Mesmer with Power Return. Mesmers have Migraine, Power Block and other skills that aid with Inturruption. A Necro with Power Return cannot compete on the same level.

How often do you need to interrupt them 1/2 cast spells? The only things worth interrupting in PvE are things like MS and Sandstorm.

Also, the problem with them two skills you listed are this...Big Effect, Long recharge. This kind of doesn't work with the 3-4 second life span of most PvE monsters.

Dodo The Extinct · Nov 28, 2007, 03:06 AM // 03:06

Quote:

How often do you need to interrupt them 1/2 cast spells? The only things worth interrupting in PvE are things like MS and Sandstorm.

Also, the problem with them two skills you listed are this...Big Effect, Long recharge. This kind of doesn't work with the 3-4 second life span of most PvE monsters.

I am telling you that Mesmers are better at inturrupting in PvE. I'm not telling you that bringing those skills is always worth it.

Omniclasm · Nov 28, 2007, 03:10 AM // 03:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dodo The Extinct

I am telling you that Mesmers are better at inturrupting in PvE. I'm not telling you that bringing those skills is always worth it.

I will agree that they are slightly better at interrupting. Redundant interruption isn't worth the total lack of physical shutdown though.

enmitee · Nov 28, 2007, 11:13 AM // 11:13

there are few mesmer builds that actually work in pve. one of them is the shatter/hex eater/whatever else to shatter a hex on ally build.

the rest im just not sure. melee shutdown? sorry to say, but necroes will do better in this overall. cuz ineptitude may be a good 100+ damage. but the recharge time is insane compare to a spiteful/insidious/echo spam. and dont forget enfeeblement. true they can cast it faster. but a 20+ damage ss or a 20-30+ insidious parasite opt with a roughly 12 second enfeeble for alot of energy w/o the help of real energy back up. its ridiculous.

guilt/shame spam is hardly a "tide turner" when mobs die too soon. prolly the only good time a me/n can replace a real necro is when the me/n becomes a br/bip battery. but the rest im just not sure in terms of pve.