Curse

draxynnic · Feb 12, 2008, 04:25 AM // 04:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

/signed.

Actually I think the entire GW skill system is in need of a major shake-up, not just the mesmers - all the professions have skills which don't belong there (e.g. Epidemic should be Necro, not Mesmer) and all the professions need to have their roles better defined. Mesmer is just the profession which suffers the most from having an unclear role.
But the OPs suggestions is a start.

I pretty much agree fully here. In my opinion, the Mesmer largely suffers from a lack of distinction at the original design phase with the Necromancer. The non-hex abilities are fairly well defined (energy draining, interrupts, and hex removal from the Mesmer side, minions, wells and lifesteal from the Necromancer side), but the hexes start to overlap into a hazy zone where many skills on one side are matched by a counterpart on the other and some skills appear almost like they were placed by tossing a coin.

Personally, I would distinguish the hexes according to the following rules:

1) Necromancer spells affect the body, Mesmer hexes accept the mind.
1a) Fear effects excepted - these can be equally split between the two.

Example in operation: Reckless Haste does not appear to be a fear effect, but it causes the enemy to behave in an unwise manner. This seems to be more of a Mesmer thing than a Necromancer thing. On the other hand, as the majority of conditions are physical (even if there are some that can be caused by making the enemy believe they have that condition so much that they actually develop it), this rule suggests that the majority of condition-spreading and -influencing effects should belong in the Necromancer line.

2) Mesmer hexes require the hexee to make a choice - perform a given act and be punished, or wait out the hex. Necromancer hexes may be less powerful, but do not allow a way out (apart from retreating in the case of hexes that cause attacks on you to do more damage).
2a) Necromancer hexes may act in a 'punishing' manner if they do so in a Necromancer way rather than straight damage (ie Insidious Parasite (lifesteal), Ulcerous Lungs (clearly a physical effect, in line with Rule 1)
2b) Mesmer hexes may act in a non-punishing matter if they purely hamper spellcasting, especially if they make it easier to use other effects to punish said spellcasting (ie Arcane Conundrum).

The second rule is essentially an extension of the first into the metagame: the Mesmer messes with the mind of the player or AI while the Necromancer directly weakens the character under the control of said player or AI. (This is clearly something that's more a PvP consideration in GW1, but maybe the GW2 AI will be better at judging when to accept punishment and when not to.) While each of these rules may have exceptions, such exceptions should be dabbling in the other's expertise rather than overshadowing it - and yes, this would mandate moving Spiteful Spirit, and possibly Spoil Victor as well, over to the Mesmer. (Why are either considered Necromancer skills? Because they always have been - there's nothing apart from the names that really gives them a Necromancer flavour.)

Now, I don't think there's anything that can be done for GW1 regarding this at this point - moving an entire skill does seem a bit much - but perhaps by considering this now we can take advantage of the clean slate provided by GW2.

On general comments on Mesmer viability: I really like the Mesmer as a class, my primary character is a Mesmer, and I usually bring Gwen along with Power Block when hero/henching. However, I've yet to truly feel that I've found a build that can really compete with the BHA/Epidemic ranger for area caster shutdown (especially when combined with the Ranger's ability to apply conditions to add the proverbial insult). Likewise, there doesn't seem to be much that can compete with the area blind ability of an EDA Dervish or air elementalist with Epidemic for area physical shutdown. An Assassin with Temple Strike and Epidemic can potentially do both, even if they can't keep it up permanently.

Largely, I agree with the arguments of the 'Mesmers are awesome' crowd... except for the final conclusion that they are, indeed, awesome. They have a lot of abilities that make them worth having and I find it incredibly amusing to watch mobs being shutdown by a Mesmer when it works... but in my experience, they still fall just a little short of the mechanical ability some of the other classes have. They're more powerful than a lot of people give them credit for, yes... but as many stereotypes have a grain of truth, I don't think they're quite up to the standards of the other classes, and I'm not just talking holy trinity here.

Mirror of Disenchantment, on the other hand, is really, really amusing to watch on all those mobs using the same build...

LightningHell · Feb 12, 2008, 10:17 AM // 10:17

Someone suggested to move the discussion to Avarre's State of the Mesmer - PvE thread. It's more convenient to have one thread than multiples on the same subject.

Thoughts?

Div · Feb 12, 2008, 10:26 AM // 10:26

Good thing Avarre is a mesmer noob. I cringe at the thought of having to read through page after page of QQ by PvE mesmers saying their character sucks.

And yeah, I'd be in favor of moving the discussion to that thread, since the opening post there is more objective than the one here.

Numa Pompilius · Feb 12, 2008, 11:16 AM // 11:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Two April Mornings

I think that Mesmers may have one of the most defined roles.

Really? What is it?
Personally I think draxynnic pretty much nailed it: there's overlap between especially mesmers and necros.
Personally I also feel that hex removal should be a primarily mesmer capability, not a primarily monk capability, but I realize that that would be a really hard sell to the PvP crowd.

Avarre · Feb 12, 2008, 01:23 PM // 13:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Good thing Avarre is a mesmer noob. I cringe at the thought of having to read through page after page of QQ by PvE mesmers saying their character sucks.

sup Divine?

I think dividing classes like the Mesmer and Necro by 'lore' is a silly idea. Both classes do things, both have their own ways to do things. Ability overlap is present in almost all classes to some degree. If you really want to make a case for it you'll have to examine it in the context of all 10 classes in Guild Wars and specific lore-defined roles, at which point your argument will almost certainly take a direct turn towards the lolrus circus as you try to base game balance on skill style rather than skill purpose.

the_jos · Feb 12, 2008, 01:35 PM // 13:35

Rebalancing might be in order, but it's not the mesmer that needs rework, but the entire PvE concept.
A-net's way of making things harder was adding more mobs (elite areas) or higher attributes with increased casting/moving speed (hard mode).
This causes problems for several professions, not only the mesmer.
Solving it for mesmer only does not solve it for the other professions, most obvious the assassin.

Also, the surgested changes do impact PvP a lot.
Remember, HA has some tight areas and at VoD in GvG also packs NPCs close.
Making some mesmer skills AoE or change their behaviour would make those fight too harsh.

Besides that, the mesmer can have a role in PvE, just not in the eyes of the average (PUG)team.
Most of my guildies make room for me if I want to join them with my mesmer and that's not because I'm their leader.

If you want to be able to join PUG teams, max your Norn and play Ursan.
Or create one of the trinity characters.
Or wait longer for a team.
If you want to join guild/alliance teams with your mesmer, prove your value.

And pray for A-net to fix the current mob imbalance in GW2...

Shanaeri Rynale · Feb 12, 2008, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

Mesmers have their uses in certain zones where you need their shutdown for casters or something. If you want to use a mesmer all the time, join DVDF, because we all know that you dont NEED them, but apparently DVDF disagree. Mesmers are better in PvP, where killing hundreds of monsters is irrelevant, and where shutdown is important.

Thats a slight misquote. We are fully aware you dont need mesmers, assasins etc etc to do well in PvE. Heck you don't even *need* monks.

What we do, is make space in teams for people of these less popular professions and work our builds so that their strengths are incorporated into the team and not marginalised. Before anyone says, we're not talking about turning them into bears, but of leveraging the skills and play styles they offer to best effect.

We also go out of our way to prove that these less appreciated professions are shown to be useful in an attempt to show PvE people the attractions and usefulness in playing them.

A mesmer playing Ursan is'nt a mesmer, but a well dressed member of the Ursan profession

To my regret, the only professions you can get away with using all the time in PvE are Ursans and Monks

but thats another story.

People who know what they are on about and that includes my guild know that mesmers are not 100 %optimal in PvE. But what we will do is make sure they have as much chance as any other professions to get into our teams and achieve what they want to without having to H/H all the time..

Painbringer · Feb 12, 2008, 05:09 PM // 17:09

Holy crap OP you must of struck a nerve in the Mesmer community I have not seen this many replies in a short period of time ever

Anyway

I agree changes need to be made and just a few changes of skills could make a difference at least for PVE.

[skill]empathy[/skill] Target foe and adjacent foes (1 extra foe per 2 ranks in fast casting) are hexed with empathy same damage and duration

[skill]chaos storm[/skill] increase damage to 20-25 dmg range and instead of energy drain add 25-50 percent chance of interruption when taking damage from chaos storm.

[skill]Spiteful Spirit[/skill] leave for the necros and instead boost one of the elites the Mesmer has currently like

[skill]extend conditions[/skill] change to while hexed with extend conditions all Mesmer spells used against foe cause a random condition for 2-10 seconds (these conditions do gain the bonus of extend conditions for duration. (Reduce duration time of hex and increase recharge and energy cost 15)

I have also mentioned before what if [skill]revealed enchantment[/skill] and [skill]revealed hex[/skill] add they disable the skill on opponents bar while you have control of the skill.

[skill]simple thievery[/skill] change to one random skill from target foe is disabled and any foes in the area with the same skill also have it disabled for the same period of time. 50% chance of failure with fast casting of 5 or less

[skill]symbols of inspiration[/skill] change to party enchantment and have whoever uses a signet while under the effects of this enchantment gains 1-8 energy and 1-3 strikes of adrenaline

[skill]illusionary weaponry[/skill] add while attacking under this enchantment you gain 2-32 armor.

Just a few I was pondering

darkdreamr · Feb 12, 2008, 05:11 PM // 17:11

You started off by saying that every class should be able to use its skills to succeed equally effectively in the game. I don't agree with that. I think class specialization is a good thing. I'm glad a monk can't outdamage an elementalist, and that a mesmer can't absorb as much damage as a warrior. It seems pretty clear to me that mesmers and assassins (and ritualists to some extent) were pretty much designed for pvp.

The other half of my point is that weakening mesmer skills and making them AoE would be awful. They've tried to do that with clumsiness and wandering eye and those skills are just subpar now.

Like several people said, the problem's not with mesmers, it's with PvE. It's not just mesmers that are unneeded, it's everything other than monks, warriors, eles, and the occasional ranger or necro.

Sir Pandra Pierva · Feb 12, 2008, 06:20 PM // 18:20

honestly i am glad the mes is a different kind of class to play.
sure mes need a few more AOE spells, but running a conendrum spike i have never had any problems with pugs or anyone else.

but then again i run 2 things
for gen PVE
Mes/Ele SOI nuker
and for harder bosses either the spike with archane echo or a dom build depending on the boss

mes are just a little harder to play in PVE but are still very useful there

You can't see me · Feb 12, 2008, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkdreamr

You started off by saying that every class should be able to use its skills to succeed equally effectively in the game. I don't agree with that. I think class specialization is a good thing. I'm glad a monk can't outdamage an elementalist, and that a mesmer can't absorb as much damage as a warrior. It seems pretty clear to me that mesmers and assassins (and ritualists to some extent) were pretty much designed for pvp.

The other half of my point is that weakening mesmer skills and making them AoE would be awful. They've tried to do that with clumsiness and wandering eye and those skills are just subpar now.

Like several people said, the problem's not with mesmers, it's with PvE. It's not just mesmers that are unneeded, it's everything other than monks, warriors, eles, and the occasional ranger or necro.

I firmly disagree. Classes should not be separated into what can play PvE and PvP. No more to say there. As for weakening skills, nowhere in the suggestions are skills weakened. They are buffed if anything. If clumsiness functioned more like it did when it came to cost, duration and such, and still targetted all foes in the area, it would be a great skill.

As for some other comments, this is not about it being difficult to play a mesmer in PvE. What is difficult is finding a suitable place that is not a small nook or cranny of gameplay on the PvE side.

As for other posts, I do agree. If a suggestion to re-shape PvE in general to include all classes abilities more so was doable before GW2, I would be behind it all the way. I did not outwardly suggest it because I have serious doubts that it could happen. However, I do not ignore that it would be a better solution.

Sir Panda, SoI builds are the key point of this thread. A mesmer should not have to use that skill to manipulate things from other classes to function in PvE. Its own skills should to that, but currently, the way it is set up, in mainstream PvE, they do not.

I'm still having trouble with the edit function, I'll be sending another request to support, but, until then, mods, forgive me if I posts two in a row.

Sir Pandra Pierva · Feb 12, 2008, 10:26 PM // 22:26

still i think it is interesting that mes who are designed to cause chaos everywere aren't used as much.
SoI i use for kicks not for usefulness.

honestly i have seen mes do amazing shit with
me/n
vilurence
phantom pain
shatter delusions
drain delusions
conjure phantasm
epidemic

shrinking armor could work here as well
i didn't see him using fragility.

its always nice to see on hm a mob get a shit load of conditions right off the bat.
but it was neat in hm to watch these conditions go everywere on the opposing side extreamly fast.

you just have to be creative.

so ireally dont see a need to make more skills aoe when mes can do very well with creativity

You can't see me · Feb 13, 2008, 12:48 AM // 00:48

Creativity often takes the Mesmer out of its own skill line. That should not be the case. A prime example is your Vilurence build. Effective? Maybe, but it's still reliant on a necromancer elite.

Brian the Gladiator · Feb 13, 2008, 12:54 AM // 00:54

This thread is stupid... It's founded on failed assumptions!

Comparing Mesmers to Necromancers and Elementalists... Dumb

Mesmers are nothing like necromancers and elementalists. Another ignorant statement by a PvE player who doesn't understand class objectives. The Mesmer is a shut down class. If anything, it is comparable to a caster version of a ranger. The main objective is to interrupt and disrupt offensive and defensive strategy. Whether it be PvP or PvE, this is how the class should be run if we are talking strictly what the class is designed to do.

Whose fault is it that PvEers tend to believe that shutdown of enemy mobs is considered a flaw. Whose fault is it that PvE mesmers don't know the first thing about the class. Whose fault is it that Mesmers are literally the strongest profession but are denied in the largest community that Guild Wars has to offer.

The answer: The PvP community
Simply stating that all who understand what it is to be a mesmer PvP rather than PvE because of the ignorance of the PvE community.

p.s. ---> Just to prove my point about the PvE community -- If PvEers would recognize the effectiveness of kiting away from attacking melee, Water Eles would/should be the most prevalent elemental used, however, that is not the case.

Wildi · Feb 13, 2008, 01:23 AM // 01:23

maybe one day you will understand that single target shutdown is terribly ineffective in pve, I mean can you imagine that your team get attacked by 3 warriors and 2 assa at the same time and you can only interrupt one of them, and its not that people can't kite either

You can't see me · Feb 13, 2008, 01:47 AM // 01:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian the Gladiator

This thread is stupid... It's founded on failed assumptions!

Comparing Mesmers to Necromancers and Elementalists... Dumb

Mesmers are nothing like necromancers and elementalists. Another ignorant statement by a PvE player who doesn't understand class objectives. The Mesmer is a shut down class. If anything, it is comparable to a caster version of a ranger. The main objective is to interrupt and disrupt offensive and defensive strategy. Whether it be PvP or PvE, this is how the class should be run if we are talking strictly what the class is designed to do.

Whose fault is it that PvEers tend to believe that shutdown of enemy mobs is considered a flaw. Whose fault is it that PvE mesmers don't know the first thing about the class. Whose fault is it that Mesmers are literally the strongest profession but are denied in the largest community that Guild Wars has to offer.

The answer: The PvP community
Simply stating that all who understand what it is to be a mesmer PvP rather than PvE because of the ignorance of the PvE community.

p.s. ---> Just to prove my point about the PvE community -- If PvEers would recognize the effectiveness of kiting away from attacking melee, Water Eles would/should be the most prevalent elemental used, however, that is not the case.

Your post has failed through contradiction, obvious ignorance, lack of experience, lack of thought put into it, and lack of truth in all information stated. I honestly tried to make a suitable reply to this, and I couldn't. There's just too much that's just plain wrong.

draxynnic · Feb 13, 2008, 01:49 AM // 01:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wildi

maybe one day you will understand that single target shutdown is terribly ineffective in pve, I mean can you imagine that your team get attacked by 3 warriors and 2 assa at the same time and you can only interrupt one of them, and its not that people can't kite either

Actually, in my experience, singe target shutdown is darned useful in PvE. Talk of huge mobs in PvE aside, in my own experience, unless you overaggro, nine times out of ten there are more toons on your side then there are monsters. This is even more likely if you're including pets, minions and summons into the mix.

Under those circumstances, shutting down one enemy is really, really useful. If there's eight of them and six of you, say, and you can shut down one of them, you've used one eighth of your own resources to shut down one sixth of theirs. That's a win in my book, especially since the shutdowner can usually still do damage to the shutdownee in the process.

The problem isn't that shutdown doesn't work in PvE, it's that it isn't exactly clear that Mesmers are actually good at shutdown when compared to the likes of BHA rangers, EDA dervishes or X/Ds, and the like - which isn't helped by the Mesmer shutdowns seemingly being the most likely for a given nasty to be immune to (both Natural Resistance and faster activation times on bosses make Mesmer shutdown harder to make effective, spell immunity effects tend to leave Mesmers waving a wand, and any monster skill that can't be disabled thumbs its nose at Diversion - and that's just the start). When the Mesmers are appearing to be overshadowed in their own specialty, they're left in a position of scrabbling to find some way to be relevant somewhere else - which is where we see condition-spreaders, CoP nukers and all the various SoI builds cropping up now.

You can't see me · Feb 13, 2008, 01:58 AM // 01:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Actually, in my experience, singe target shutdown is darned useful in PvE. Talk of huge mobs in PvE aside, in my own experience, unless you overaggro, nine times out of ten there are more toons on your side then there are monsters. This is even more likely if you're including pets, minions and summons into the mix.

Under those circumstances, shutting down one enemy is really, really useful. If there's eight of them and six of you, say, and you can shut down one of them, you've used one eighth of your own resources to shut down one sixth of theirs. That's a win in my book, especially since the shutdowner can usually still do damage to the shutdownee in the process.

The problem isn't that shutdown doesn't work in PvE, it's that it isn't exactly clear that Mesmers are actually good at shutdown when compared to the likes of BHA rangers, EDA dervishes or X/Ds, and the like - which isn't helped by the Mesmer shutdowns seemingly being the most likely for a given nasty to be immune to (both Natural Resistance and faster activation times on bosses make Mesmer shutdown harder to make effective, spell immunity effects tend to leave Mesmers waving a wand, and any monster skill that can't be disabled thumbs its nose at Diversion - and that's just the start). When the Mesmers are appearing to be overshadowed in their own specialty, they're left in a position of scrabbling to find some way to be relevant somewhere else - which is where we see condition-spreaders, CoP nukers and all the various SoI builds cropping up now.

My experience has told me different. First off, a group should not be over agroing in the first place. In this situation, I also find that another elementalist that can put your party way ahead in terms of damage output into a mob that outnumbers you is far more effective rather than fighting 9 targets instead of 10.

It's true, shutdown fits well into hindering enemies, but the only enemies that are worth hindering versus a spot in your part better spent with damage output are very very powerful caster bosses, and these are rare to run into.

draxynnic · Feb 13, 2008, 02:15 AM // 02:15

Ah, but how often are you actually fighting more than 8 enemies?

People keep saying that's the default in PvE, but I really don't see that as being the case. The average mob size, in my experience, tends to be around 5 or 6. (Admittedly, though, you could say the big mobs are often the ones that are more likely to inflict casualties or cause a wipe, so that's what you need to build for.)

The bigger difference between PvP and PvE is not in the raw numbers, but how the numbers behave. Human opponents generally tend to spread out so it's harder to hit them all with one AoE unless they have a good reason not to, while mobs are fairly easy to get to ball up where they can be obliterated by AoE. One-for-one shutdown is still a gain for the party, although I'll concede that AoE damage is often a bigger gain for the party.

More important to the Mesmer's problems, however, is that the best way I know of to shutdown in PvE is to slap Daze and/or Blindness, and possibly Weakness as well, on a central target and then use Epidemic to share it around - which is generally best achieved with other professions using a Mesmer secondary than an actual Mesmer.

You can't see me · Feb 13, 2008, 02:41 AM // 02:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Ah, but how often are you actually fighting more than 8 enemies?

People keep saying that's the default in PvE, but I really don't see that as being the case. The average mob size, in my experience, tends to be around 5 or 6. (Admittedly, though, you could say the big mobs are often the ones that are more likely to inflict casualties or cause a wipe, so that's what you need to build for.)

The bigger difference between PvP and PvE is not in the raw numbers, but how the numbers behave. Human opponents generally tend to spread out so it's harder to hit them all with one AoE unless they have a good reason not to, while mobs are fairly easy to get to ball up where they can be obliterated by AoE. One-for-one shutdown is still a gain for the party, although I'll concede that AoE damage is often a bigger gain for the party.

More important to the Mesmer's problems, however, is that the best way I know of to shutdown in PvE is to slap Daze and/or Blindness, and possibly Weakness as well, on a central target and then use Epidemic to share it around - which is generally best achieved with other professions using a Mesmer secondary than an actual Mesmer.

I can see your point on that from where you currently stand, but maybe some clarification of what I actually mean will help. (This is my fault for thinking that many people share my line of thought.)

For one thing, when it comes to putting conditions on things, there are many skills that can do it on other professions that can do it much easier than bringing a mesmer. A Dervish with Ebon Dust Aura will outdamage a mesmer and still shutdown enemy melee mobs that blindness would be a good counter on.

Another example would be bringing a ranger with heavy inturupts. The ranger may still bring barrage and do some great damage, but it can function the same way an anti-caster mesmer would without sacrificing the spot countering other uses such as a tanking character with a dervish, or the bonuses with spirits and damage of barrage with a ranger. Sure, the mesmer may be able to perform these tasks better in some cases, but it's not a margin of better enough to sacrifice the spot in your party in these cases, at least in the opinion of many people, myself included.

Now, as to what PvE is, when I say it, I tend to mean what I don't say. When I say PvE, I mean the part of PvE where you PuG and not H/H. H/H is so rudimentery and easy not to make mistakes I don't normally consider it. When it comes to PuGing, in a lot of places that you PuG, there are mobs with 6+ foes, even ranging to 10 in some places. Often times, you will even agro two mobs on purpose because your party can handle it the way it's set up. Here, a mesmer would make very little difference rather than another damage character, which led to my statements. In the PvE I participate in, I am most likely fighting 10+ enemies at once. I should have said it though.