Curse

Hamfast · Feb 12, 2008, 02:14 AM // 02:14

My Mesmer is very effective in PvE. Never had much problem. Flew right through the Protector of Tyria title. (I love making bosses kill themselves!) Of course, I use Heroes/Henchies. Never did like groups of strangers who don't know how to work together.

Yeah, I know that's not a very helpful response. If you DO want to join groups of "real" people, see if you can get a Protector Title (mission expert), or Elite Skill Hunter Title (Boss killer), or something else you can flash that says "I know how to take care of business". Then maybe people will be willing to take you on, and you can "wow" them with your expertise, thereby changing public opinion one group at a time.

Yeah, I wish they had some more Area of Effect spells, sure... but they do well enough as-is. (Although I don't use many of the skills you are showing). Mesmers are awsome caster-killers in PvE and can hold their own against all but the most aggressive Warrior types as well. (I use Me/Mo, Primarily Domination with a little Illusion).

Two April Mornings · Feb 12, 2008, 02:15 AM // 02:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by You can't see me

With more damage through manipulation, instead of hinderence through manipulation, the mesmer can triumph as a very well rounded class.

Mesmers aren't meant to deal damage though. That's what your warriors / main damage dealers do. If you as a mesmer are taking down the targets, something is rather wrong. The goal as a mesmer is to shutdown that target.

Van Goghs Ear · Feb 12, 2008, 02:15 AM // 02:15

sigh...the mesmer is one of the most powerful support classes in GW, it's just not needed in PvE because PvE is a dumbed down version of this game. Saying all classes essentially do the same thing is pure ignorance. You rarely find monks doing damage in PvE or PvP, but that doesn't mean they need to be retooled.

Mesmers do INDIRECT damage which is exactly what they are supposed to do, but since PvE is so mindnumbingly easy, there's no need to do indirect damage.

end of story.

You can't see me · Feb 12, 2008, 02:16 AM // 02:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Two April Mornings

Mesmers aren't meant to deal damage though. That's what your warriors / main damage dealers do. If you as a mesmer are taking down the targets, something is rather wrong.

I we handled things as they were meant to be, many aspects of the game would not be as they are today.

Taking down targets is the objective in PvE. Mesmers have their own way of doing this, manipulation, but it is not at a level that can compete with Nukers or Necromancers. I and others feel it should be at that level.

Jetdoc · Feb 12, 2008, 02:20 AM // 02:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by You can't see me

Taking down targets is the objective in PvE. Mesmers have their own way of doing this, manipulation, but it is not at a level that can compete with Nukers or Necromancers. I and others feel it should be at that level.

The problem is that it IS at that level on a single target. They just can't do the AoE damage that an Elementalist can do.

But honestly, neither can an SS necro. The appeal to the SS Necro, however, is its dual function as an AoE and an endless energy battery.

If you put SS on a mesmer, you wouldn't see much of a difference...mesmers still wouldn't find a place in the Holy Trinity groups, and Necros would be completely relegated to energy management (if needed at all).

GloryFox · Feb 12, 2008, 02:20 AM // 02:20

Quote:

This anti-mesmer think is fueled by nothing but hype. Everyone talks about how mesmers suck in PvE, so nobody plays them, so everyone concludes they suck at PvE, and they talk about how much mesmers suck at PvE....

QFT

IMO people who hate Mesmers usually suck in general, or are WoW rejects. Sorry to inform all Mesmer hate wannabes but 3 Echo CoP Mesmers can out DPS any Fire Ele trio any time any place. Mesmer hate is spoken from pure ignorance and thats all there is to it.

You can't see me · Feb 12, 2008, 02:20 AM // 02:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Van Goghs Ear

sigh...the mesmer is one of the most powerful support classes in GW, it's just not needed in PvE because PvE is a dumbed down version of this game. Saying all classes essentially do the same thing is pure ignorance. You rarely find monks doing damage in PvE or PvP, but that doesn't mean they need to be retooled.

Mesmers do INDIRECT damage which is exactly what they are supposed to do, but since PvE is so mindnumbingly easy, there's no need to do indirect damage.

end of story.

I did not say all classes. I said most. I suppose I should have been a tad more clear. No, monks do not often do damage, but a smiting monk can be very effective in some parts of the game, though, are not really considered good in the average PuG.

Yes, mesmers deal indrect damage, but they mostly hinder. I and others feel that mesmers should have more ways of dealing indirect damage, aka, manipulation, such as SS.

The ease or status of PvE is not the argument here. There's no reason to bring it into this. Frankly, the game can function without rebalancing of many skills that need it, and many abilities. In essence, no, it is not needed. However, it can function better through the rebalancing of skills, which, I believe is a very possible function for the mesmer.

You can't see me · Feb 12, 2008, 02:22 AM // 02:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by GloryFox

QFT

IMO people who hate Mesmers usually suck in general, or are WoW rejects. Sorry to inform all Mesmer hate wannabes but 3 Echo CoP Mesmers can out DPS any Fire Ele trio any time any place. Mesmer hate is spoken from pure ignorance and thats all there is to it.

All true, but there should be more options for the mesmer to compete in tasks other classes can perform other than PvE skills. Their own skill bars should do this.

As for fitting in, no, this suggestion is not the full answer, but with much thought, I believe there is a way that they can, trinity or no trinity.

Two April Mornings · Feb 12, 2008, 02:26 AM // 02:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by You can't see me

I we handled things as they were meant to be, many aspects of the game would not be as they are today.

Taking down targets is the objective in PvE. Mesmers have their own way of doing this, manipulation, but it is not at a level that can compete with Nukers or Necromancers. I and others feel it should be at that level.

Taking down targets IS the objective of PVE, I agree.

However, not all classes are going to be doing that in the same manner in PVE. Mesmers are not going to give you the same big amount of yellow numbers as nukers or necros, but they can give you manipulation that I will argue is just as powerful as a ton of yellow numbers.

Honestly though, if you want to see lots of numbers, don't play mesmer. They have never done that and never will--it's just how the game is.

EDIT: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10244632
The link is a build which i posted a bit back. It doesn't have the big numbers of necros or eles, but can do things other professions can't, as in shutdown mobs of healers in HM.

juliets dagger · Feb 12, 2008, 02:28 AM // 02:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by You can't see me

Taking down targets is the objective in PvE. Mesmers have their own way of doing this, manipulation, but it is not at a level that can compete with Nukers or Necromancers. I and others feel it should be at that level.

Taking down the target is also the objective of the enemy. It's why you prepare your team with a proper balance. There's the melee damage class: Warrior, dervish, sin. The ranged attacker: Ranger. The damage dealing spellcasters: Eles, necros. The buffers/healers: Monks, rits, paragons. And the mesmer? Well, it's his job to make sure that the enemy is as ineffective as possible so that your team can take him out easier.

Going up against an Elementalist boss using massive aoe damage? Helps a whole lot if his spells are taking twice as long to cast, he takes damage when the spell is cast, and his elite has been disabled.

You can't see me · Feb 12, 2008, 02:29 AM // 02:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Two April Mornings

Taking down targets IS the objective of PVE, I agree.

However, not all classes are going to be doing that in the same manner in PVE. Mesmers are not going to give you the same big amount of yellow numbers as nukers or necros, but they can give you manipulation that I will argue is just as powerful as a ton of yellow numbers.

Honestly though, if you want to see lots of numbers, don't play mesmer. They have never done that and never will--it's just how the game is.

Then I suppose my suggestion comes down to giving manipulation more yellow numbers.

Am I asking them to replace Nukers? No. they will not do the same amount of damage. However, I feel that they could be more useful toward the purpose by using other means than they're currently outfitted with. Boosting the ability of manipulation, when it comes down to it, would not be a bad thing.

Splitisoda · Feb 12, 2008, 02:30 AM // 02:30

The problem with mesmers is more linked to their skills. Everything's either a hex, stance, or interrupt really. So its like saying wild blow, holy veil, and possibly another stance sums up all mesmer counters.

I wonder if one of those Me/Mo signet smiters would work?

cellardweller · Feb 12, 2008, 02:31 AM // 02:31

For a mesmer to have a place in PvE, be able to at least one thing better than other classes. Many people say that the purpose of the mesmer is "shutdown", but even in this role mesmers fail:
General caster shut down is better by a ranger (BHA+epdeminc+Volley)
General mellee shut down is better by a necromancer (Enfeebling blood, reckless haste)
General single target shut down is better by a warrior (FGJ+Dragonslash+Brawling Headbutt)
And all do it at the same time as unloading damage that a mesmer can only dream of.

You can't see me · Feb 12, 2008, 02:33 AM // 02:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by juliets dagger

Taking down the target is also the objective of the enemy. It's why you prepare your team with a proper balance. There's the melee damage class: Warrior, dervish, sin. The ranged attacker: Ranger. The damage dealing spellcasters: Eles, necros. The buffers/healers: Monks, rits, paragons. And the mesmer? Well, it's his job to make sure that the enemy is as ineffective as possible so that your team can take him out easier.

Going up against an Elementalist boss using massive aoe damage? Helps a whole lot if his spells are taking twice as long to cast, he takes damage when the spell is cast, and his elite has been disabled.

The beauty is, the mesmer can still do all this with the changes made. They do not lose any previous ability to do their one job in PvE.

Kha · Feb 12, 2008, 02:34 AM // 02:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Two April Mornings

I think that Mesmers may have one of the most defined roles.

I agree. It's pretty clear what the mesmer's purpose is in the game. The problem is that PvE doesn't provide much opportunity for the mesmer to shine. Rarely are there situations where you can't just force your way through your enemies with force. There isn't enough variety in enemy situations to allow a wider range of necessary skills in PvE, whether this be from laziness in design or to not offset the casual players that may not be able to handle the need for more diverse skill bars.

Mesmers are still powerful in PvE, just not in the obvious way of casting a huge nuke and watching your enemies stand in it and die. If it doesn't naturally have huge numbers in the skill description, or isn't a famous cookie cutter build on the wiki, then most players dismiss it immediately.

But let's face the facts here - ANet gave us Ursan AND have kept it untouched for months. That's pretty much their way of saying "We don't care about PvE balance." All I hope for now is that PvE will be a bit more thoughtful and diverse in GW2.

Two April Mornings · Feb 12, 2008, 02:35 AM // 02:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

General caster shut down is better by a ranger (BHA+epdeminc+Volley)
General mellee shut down is better by a necromancer (Enfeebling blood, reckless haste)
General single target shut down is better by a warrior (FGJ+Dragonslash+Brawling Headbutt)
And all do it at the same time as unloading damage that a mesmer can only dream of.

Right, but those are 3! different classes. The mesmer can succesfully shutdown all 3 of those aspects, but it just a single class.

Esprit · Feb 12, 2008, 02:36 AM // 02:36

Mesmers shine more in Hard Mode, where everything hits harder and faster. Hard Mode Warriors drop like flies with Empathy on them. Casters, especially Elementalists, Mesmers, and Monks drop just as quickly with Backfire. Guilt is great against them too. Got a pesky Assassin that is chasing your Monks? Crippling Anguish or Imagined Burden is great.

In Hard Mode, Mesmers can do more damage than almost any class.

But I do agree, single target shutdown has always been an issue with mobs, but unless Anet makes it so you can view multiple enemy attacks at once, rather than cycling through them, you'll be stuck with single target shutdown.

You can't see me · Feb 12, 2008, 02:37 AM // 02:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kha

I agree. It's pretty clear what the mesmer's purpose is in the game. The problem is that PvE doesn't provide much opportunity for the mesmer to shine. Rarely are there situations where you can't just force your way through your enemies with force. There isn't enough variety in enemy situations to allow a wider range of necessary skills in PvE, whether this be from laziness in design or to not offset the casual players that may not be able to handle the need for more diverse skill bars.

Mesmers are still powerful in PvE, just not in the obvious way of casting a huge nuke and watching your enemies stand in it and die. If it doesn't naturally have huge numbers in the skill description, or isn't a famous cookie cutter build on the wiki, then most players dismiss it immediately.

But let's face the facts here - ANet gave us Ursan AND have kept it untouched for months. That's pretty much their way of saying "We don't care about PvE balance." All I hope for now is that PvE will be a bit more thoughtful and diverse in GW2.

I do agree that mesmers are dismissed too easily considering their current abilities, but perhaps with the additions that would allow the mesmer to shine even more, it could become a popular class in PvE. That's the objective here. Give the mesmer more places to shine in PvE.

I am sorry for all the double posts where I quote two people in two messages. My edit button is not functioning correctly, and yes, I have inquired to support about this.

You can't see me · Feb 12, 2008, 02:39 AM // 02:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Two April Mornings

Right, but those are 3! different classes. The mesmer can succesfully shutdown all 3 of those aspects, but it just a single class.

So it is a less effective substitute to the abilities of other classes. Why should damage not be a part of these lesser abilities of other classes?

bj91x · Feb 12, 2008, 02:39 AM // 02:39

I've gone through the game with all 10 professions. For me at least, an Me was not hard to go through the game at all. Me's have tools for nearly any situation. There wasn't a single mission I had much trouble in. Granted, Me's AOE wasn't that great, but if a certain mission required a lot of AOE, I just let my E and N heroes handle them while I took down the enemies that were spread out from the rest of the enemy groups.

AOE is overrated, really. There are a lot of enemies that are not standing in close proximity to its group. This is why single target DPS is so valuable. I never go with just AOE damage. I always ensure that I have at least 1 single target DPS.

If anything, I had the most trouble going through the game with my Mo. I'm not a fan of healing, so I had to smite my way through the game with H/H. Smiting is OK, but its damage isn't mind blowing save for few specific set ups.

I also never had any problems getting into groups with my Me. Heck, my smite Mo had more trouble than anything (if a Mo isn't healing/protecting, PUG seem to automatically just press the kick button -_-). I like to help out random PUG players with missions on a regular basis, and I can't even remember the last time a player turned me down because I was a Me, or asked me to take CoP, Ursan, etc.

While I see points from both sides, I'm going to side with "Me's are awesome in PVE" side. Not everything is about AOE. In nearly every fight, you'll see that there are single targets that an Me can wreak havoc on. The only complaints I had with playing an Me was how I had to switch builds for nearly every zone and how hard it was to create Me builds compared to other classes. However, with the introduction of the PVE skills, these issues have been completely solved for me. Not only that, with the addition of PVE skills, an Me can deal insane AOE damage as well.

I can understand the frustration if you don't want to take PVE skills and wish Me's had more AOE damage. But unfortunately, that's not what an Me is for. If every class had the same ability to tank, AOE, etc. then it would be pretty boring as there would be no point in having different classes.