Curse

You can't see me · Feb 12, 2008, 01:34 AM // 01:34

I am aware there are threads like this. I am aware that some of this has been suggested before. However, some content is new, a lot has never been brought into one thread, and I feel that some new discussion must take place in order to properly come to a solution. Yes, I used search. No recent threads are duplicates of this one. (I don't want to perform necromancy on some old ones, as they don't cover everything.)

Let's get down to it. The Mesmer is not the best PvE class in the world. Im fact, its' abilities are dwarfed compared to its' partners in trade, the Necromancer and the Elementalist. Either or of these classes would be far more effective in most PvE situations than the Mesmer.

This is half the reason why the Mesmer cannot get into PvE PuGs, or even some Guild Groups. In fact, it cannot even H/H as effectively. I've had more time spent getting through areas while H/Hing on my Mesmer than with any other class. This isn't right. The Mesmer must be rebalanced to be viable in PvE.

This thread sticks to the idea that all classes should be able to use their own skills to be effective in both sides of the game. This means that Signet of Illusion ElementaMesmers and triple-echo Cry of Pain mesmers are not the answer. No, this is not the answer to the Mesmer's PvE problems. Please note, I am NOT denying that some PvE skills for the mesmer, or when combined with SoI are NOT effective. However, PvE skills are a crutch that the problem leans on. They over shadow the worth of the mesmer's skill line in general. I feel that this is not the way it should be. Mesmers should have a comfortable place in PvE. This does not mean running the skills of another profession combined with fact casting and SoI, or running triple echo PvE skills. This means that the mesmer should have a viabale way of functioning as its' own class in PvE in a way that it can compete with the other classes.

So we now have our motives for the change. To properly create a solution, we need to look at the current problems with the mesmer in PvE. Below is a bulleted list of what, in my opinion, and the opinion of surveyed guildmates/friends think are the main problems with Mesmers in PvE.

~Single Target Shutdown.
The Mesmer is an excellent shutdown class. It has many skills that will make a target totally useless to its allies and harmless to its foes. The problem here is, PvE deals in mobs, and not single targets. Often time, focusing on one target for the amount of time and energy it takes to shut down that target is too much, since that single target can be easily dispatched.

~Lack of effective skills to operate on a full Mesmer bar.
Let's face it, there are hardly any full Mesmer bars that are a viable choice in PvE in most cases. Sure, some may take an inturupt shutdown mesmer for hard caster bosses, but Broad Head Arrow on a ranger is an equally viable choice that comes with the bonus of extra damage and effects. Sure, you can combine the two, but that's overkill. There are not many full Mesmer bars that will compete with a Necromancer or an Elementalist in PvE.

~Single Target Domination.
(This is not the same as shutdown.) The main problem people seem to complain about is that the mesmer deals too much in single targets not only for shutdown, but in general. Many Mesmer skills, if they were weakened could be excellent AoE spells, but they have a high energy cost and a high recharge time as it is as a single target spell. The Mesmer needs more spells that can deal damage or turmoil to a mob, not just a single target in order to effectively play as a PvE class.

~Solving the Problem~

I believe a large rebalance of several elites, a change and displacement among attributes of skills, and a total transition of a single elite is in order to solve the PvE woes of the mesmer. I don't believe implementing new skills is the answer, since there would be hardly any viable ways to accomplish this. By reworking some old ones completely, I think we can pull this off.

The first change I'd like to make is the most radical, so I'd like to get it over with. This has been suggested and wondered about for a long time, and I'd like to do it. I realize it may not happen, but this is the start of what could be the final fix to the Mesmer Class.

[skill]spiteful spirit[/skill] The skill functions the same, but it is moved to the Domination Magic attribute. I and others feel that this skill would function far better as a mesmer skill. Here's one example of why.

Look at these two skills. [skill]insidious parasite[/skill][skill]empathy[/skill] The effects of Spiteful Spirit far line up with Empathy rather than Insidious Parasite, which is life stealing, prominent of the mesmer, rather than damage through manipulation of foes, which is prominent to the mesmer. For this reason, I feel that this skill needs to be placed into the mesmer's bar.

The second skill reworking I feel is nescasarry is [skill]enchanter's conundrum[/skill] I feel that the effects of this skill need to be totally reworked to be a better version of [skill]mirror of disenchantment[/skill].

Remove one Enchantment from Target Foe. For 5-10 seconds, if that foe, or any ally of that foe uses an enchantment, it is removed from all party members and disabled for 5-30 seconds on all bars.

This could easily be countered as harmless in PvP by a player, but not by an NPC. A foe in PvP will not be able to reason enough to counter the timer and not use that enchantment, therefore, making it an effective PvE skill. No, it will not be the greatest elite, but it will be viable.

The next skill change I feel is in order is [skill]Spirit of Failure[/skill]. This should work far more like Reckless Haste. The effect should be all foes in the area, and the energy gain nullified. Instead, each time a foe misses, they lose one energy. Finally, this should be placed in the Illusion Magic Attribute to make it a skill that has partners in its line to create an effective bar.

Energy loss is subject to the mesmer, which is why I feel this skill change is needed. The energy gained by one foe missing is not a great place on your skill bar, with points in Inspiration Magic anyway. This could make an excellent PvE skill, functioning on a similar level of the Visages, which are two very popular mesmer PvE skills.

The next skill change I would make is to [skill]chaos storm[/skill]. I feel that this skill should function similar to Maelstorm, only not so often, not so high energy cost, and no exaustion. I feel that it should create a Chaos Storm in the Area of Target foe for 10-20 seconds. Every 3 seconds, all foes effected by Chaos Storm are inturupted and you lose one energy.

This could make a great skill for the mesmer, and a rework of a currently not so great skill in the domination line. With this change, this could make a great anti-mob skill in PvE, wheras in PvP it could be countered without negative effect to this aspect of the game.

Here are a few other skill changes I suggest.

Calculated Risk. This should be an all foes adjacent spell with increased damage addition, again, similar to Reckless Haste.

Confusing Images. This need to have a longer casting rate with a slightly higher recharge.

Wandering Eye. This spell needs to have a shorter casting time, and needs to effect all foes, and not just damage all foes. The energy may stay the same, as well as the recharge.

Images of Remorse. This skill needs to give the degeneration to all adjacent foes, and the time on it slightly increased.

Cry of Frustration. Take this skill down to 10 energy. This isn't worth 15 energy by a longshot.

Aneurysm. Reduce damage to 1-2 points, and make this effect all foes in the area, or perhaps nearby or adjacent, depending on test results.

Shrinking Armor. Effect all foes adjacent to Target.

Finally, I feel one skill must be totally reworked and moved to the Mesmer Domination Line. This is Price of Failure. Again, the effect is inherit to a Mesmer, not a Necromancer. Target foe has a 10-15% chance to miss in combat. Whenever target foe fails to hit in combat, you steal one energy from that foe.

~End Skill Changes~

Yes, these are some very radical changes indeed, but I feel that these changes and others that may be discussed here are the key in making Mesmers a viable class in PvE.

Would some skills and classes be damaged in both aspects of the game? Yes. The damage is only slight, except for Spiteful Spirit to Necromancers. Necromancers, however, have other useful PvE elites such as Spoil Victor, which is in high demand in some areas of the game, and also serve as minion masters. I feel that they could easily still be a PvE class comparable to their partners even with these changes.

Yes, sacrifices are made. This, however, is the price of change. No, the mesmer was not worked as a PvE class. This does not need to be restated, for the fact is that this is not how it needs to stay. Every other class has found a very viable way to function in PvE, even if only farming. The Mesmer needs a spot. Bottom line.

Also, if you have other ideas for skill changes for the Mesmer, please post them here, as they may become part of the solution. Why is this in Riverside? Because this is not a complete suggestion. I'd like far more ideas put in, and things discussed, changed, or modified before I present it as a suggestion to implement into the game.

Thank you for reading this long monster of a post. Feel free to post any opinions, discussions, agreements or disagreements here. Please, however, refrain from making useless suggestions such as use PvE skills or go play PvP. also, refrain from flaming or trolling. Thank you very much. It's over now. *Phew*.

Antheus · Feb 12, 2008, 01:44 AM // 01:44

Quote:

Let's get down to it. The Mesmer is not the best PvE class in the world. Im fact, its' abilities are dwarfed compared to its' partners in trade, the Necromancer and the Elementalist. Either or of these classes would be far more effective in most PvE situations than the Mesmer.

In other words: Mesmers are not nukers.

And yes, SS necro is a nuker, massive AoE damage.

This anti-mesmer think is fueled by nothing but hype. Everyone talks about how mesmers suck in PvE, so nobody plays them, so everyone concludes they suck at PvE, and they talk about how much mesmers suck at PvE....

Mesmers are equally viable as all other professions in PvE. Using that class it's perfectly possible to complete any campaign and any title. It's possible to farm with them, run mesmer only groups through elite dungeons, and do anything else.

But!

They don't fit into holy trinity. They aren't a tank. They aren't a healer. They aren't a nuker.

They can be a nuker but they'll always be a sub-par one.

The problem why mesmers are redundant in NM is because it's too easy. Just fire the nukes and things die. In HM, they have their role, and it's quite a valuable one.

But mesmers, like assassins, paragons, ritualists and dervishes will never be part of PUGs. They are not tank/nuker/healer. And yes, although paragons make one of best PvE professions to have, they are absent.

And if there's any profession that's anti-PvE, that would be a sin. Are they even worse then?

Things that don't fit into PUG need an non-holy trinity group to work effectively.

And the largest problem with mesmers in PvE isn't in their skills - its in PvE. PvE is too "dumb" to require finesse of mesmer. Large energy pools, swarms of identical mobs, retarded AI that spams skills....

But on any semi-balanced map, mesmers can, and do come handy. Same for HM.

Jetdoc · Feb 12, 2008, 01:47 AM // 01:47

Removing a key skill from a very popular class to benefit another class would be a very foolish move, IMO.

And yes, this belongs in Sardelac Sanitarium, whether it is a fully baked suggestion or not.

kratimas · Feb 12, 2008, 01:47 AM // 01:47

All these threads about Mesmers are giving me a [skill]Migraine[/skill].

If you want to get into a PvE group you basically have 2 options.

1) Convince the GW community that a Mesmer is useful.
Let me know how that goes for you! I myself understand this but, unfortunately very, very few do.

2) Throw Ursan Blessing on your bar and your in.

Sad but true.

Krat

fenix · Feb 12, 2008, 01:47 AM // 01:47

Mesmers have their uses in certain zones where you need their shutdown for casters or something. If you want to use a mesmer all the time, join DVDF, because we all know that you dont NEED them, but apparently DVDF disagree. Mesmers are better in PvP, where killing hundreds of monsters is irrelevant, and where shutdown is important.

Quaker · Feb 12, 2008, 01:49 AM // 01:49

I didn't bother to read the whole thing because I basically don't agree that Mesmers are underpowered.
This topic HAS been discussed before, ad nausium. Frankly speaking, if (and it's a big IF) Mesmers are actually less effective than some other classes - who cares? It's only a marginal difference at best.
It's PvE, there is no "competition" other than NPCs - there is no need to be obsessively concerned about "optimal" builds. Any good group should be able to do ANY part of Guild wars with a Mesmer -it might, at worst, take a few minutes longer. Woohoo!

You can't see me · Feb 12, 2008, 01:50 AM // 01:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

.

Things that don't fit into PUG need an non-holy trinity group to work effectively.
.

Totally untrue.

Currently, they can work semi-effectively, but the idea is to boost this to full effectivity.

No, they are not in the holy trinity. Should they have to be to be viable in the average PuG? No. That's the entire point. Many of the changes, including SS are backed up by logic, and not only an attempt to make the mesmer a great PvE class.

You can't see me · Feb 12, 2008, 01:53 AM // 01:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by kratimas

All these threads about Mesmers are giving me a [skill]Migraine[/skill].

If you want to get into a PvE group you basically have 2 options.

1) Convince the GW community that a Mesmer is useful.
Let me know how that goes for you! I myself understand this but, unfortunately very, very few do.

2) Throw Ursan Blessing on your bar and your in.

Sad but true.

Krat

It's not that I want a group. I want the class to be more viable versus other classes at purposes other than shutdown. Many others would agree. Mayne not you, but many others. Other classes function in a way that gives them a whole variety of uses. Mesmers are a one hit wonder. It shouldn't be this way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

Mesmers have their uses in certain zones where you need their shutdown for casters or something. If you want to use a mesmer all the time, join DVDF, because we all know that you dont NEED them, but apparently DVDF disagree. Mesmers are better in PvP, where killing hundreds of monsters is irrelevant, and where shutdown is important.

Again, should they be a one use class? No. That's the point of the thread.

Antheus · Feb 12, 2008, 01:59 AM // 01:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by You can't see me

Totally untrue.

Currently, they can work semi-effectively, but the idea is to boost this to full effectivity.

The problem, again, aren't mesmers. If you need a tank, nuker and healer, you do not choose a sin, dervish, ritualist, mesmer or paragon.

PUGs are the problem. You cannot fix a class based on a 3 role team build.

Quote:

No, they are not in the holy trinity. Should they have to be to be viable in the average PuG? No. That's the entire point. Many of the changes, including SS are backed up by logic, and not only an attempt to make the mesmer a great PvE class.

These changes aren't backed by anything except circular self-contradiction.

They should be changed to be great in PUGs, but should be part of PUGs, yet should be improved to fit into holy trinity, yet not because of holy trinity....

Holy trinity is 3+1 classes. Warrior, ele, monk + necro. That's it.

But it doesn't in any away determine mesmers effectiveness in PvE. And SS argument is void. Give mesmers SS. It won't change a thing, since necros are useful because of soul reaping. In PvE, that's unlimited energy.

Quote:

I want the class to be more viable versus other classes at purposes other than shutdown

And I want my warrior to be the best healer. And my monk to be the best tank. And my nuker to be both, best tank and best healer....

The question you need to ask yourself - are mesmers really ideal for shutdown, or is a BH ranger better at that. But demanding a profession's role change is simply impossible. They are specialized class. Necros are flexible class. That's what you get with classes.

Might as well start petition saying that warriors are good tanks and all that, but aren't good nukers, and should get 1 energy/5 recharge SS.

Quote:

Again, should they be a one use class? No. That's the point of the thread

Every other class is a "one use" class.

Nevin · Feb 12, 2008, 02:00 AM // 02:00

I agree Mesmers need a change, but I don't agree with some of the changes you've suggested. Spiteful Spirit hands down should remain a Necromancer skill. Perhaps Mesmers should get a brotherly like skill instead.

{Elite} Wastrel's Torment - 15 Energy, 2, 20
Hex Spell. Target foe is hexed with Wastrel's Torment for 3...16(19) seconds. For every 3...2 second(s) target foe does not use a skill, target foe and adjacent foes take 11....29(31) damage. Attrib: Domination

In essence, the Mesmer will really always be out shined. So you simply have to find the nooks and crannies that aren't filled by the other professions. Personally how ever I think Mesmers would reach Godly status if they were the only profession that could strip Weapon Spells and Glyphs.

{Elite} Manic Demise - 15 Energy, 3, 15
Hex Spell. Target foe is hexed with Manic Demise for 3...13(17) seconds. For every 3...2 second(s) target foe loses the last casted buff on that target. (Wether it be weapon spell, enchantment, or glyph) Attrib: Illusion

Heres a few other skills I thought of...

{Elite} Distort Hexes - 15 Energy, 3, 30
Spell. 1...4 hexes on target foe are then replicated on adjacent foes as well. Attrib: Illusion (kinda like reverse epidemic but for hexes)

{Elite} Chaos Vortex - 25 Energy, 3, 30
Spell. For every hex on target foe, up to 2...5 additional nearby foes are struck for 17....35 chaos damage. When struck, struck foes will suffer from either Crippled, Cracked Armor, Daze, or Blindness for 3...10 seconds. (Same foe cannot be struck twice) Attrib: Domination Magic

[DE] · Feb 12, 2008, 02:01 AM // 02:01

Guild Wars is mainly balanced from a PvP-aspect while only truely broken skills (such as Pbond) are hit due to PvE. Asking for changes to make PvEing better as a mesmer is just dumb. Anet usually just changes enemies in PvE to make things more "balanced" instead of actual skills to preserve what's left of balanced PvP.

moriz · Feb 12, 2008, 02:03 AM // 02:03

the problem with mesmer in pve is that the entire class is built around single target shutdown, which is not very useful in pve. this is compounded by the fact that most bosses are IMMUNE to the strongest mesmer shutdown (for example, diversion does not work on many bosses). that's about it in a nutshell.

the way to fix it of course, is to make bosses suspitable to mesmer shutdown. then it would be worthwhile to bring one just to screw over the end boss.

You can't see me · Feb 12, 2008, 02:04 AM // 02:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

The problem, again, aren't mesmers. If you need a tank, nuker and healer, you do not choose a sin, dervish, ritualist, mesmer or paragon.

PUGs are the problem. You cannot fix a class based on a 3 role team build.

These changes aren't backed by anything except circular self-contradiction.

They should be changed to be great in PUGs, but should be part of PUGs, yet should be improved to fit into holy trinity, yet not because of holy trinity....

Holy trinity is 3+1 classes. Warrior, ele, monk + necro. That's it.

But it doesn't in any away determine mesmers effectiveness in PvE. And SS argument is void. Give mesmers SS. It won't change a thing, since necros are useful because of soul reaping. In PvE, that's unlimited energy.

The argument for SS is not about effectivity of popularity, but of the logistics of the skill itself. It fits much better as a mesmer skill, not a necromancer skill. They were cheated out of the skill in the beggining. I feel it it is time to give them what is theirs.

As for the holy trinity garbage, I am not speaking in terms of many games across the expanse where this holy trinity comes into play. I am speaking in terms of Guild Wars, and only Guild Wars. The Mesmer class functions in a way that can be improved to play its own role in play. No, they are not "Nukers" or "Tanks". They are manipulators. With changes, manipulation can become part of a large PvE base. That's the point. Not the Holy Trinity.

Manipulators are already a huge Part of PvE, with such skills as Spoil Victor and Spiteful Spirit. The mesmer can serve as this manipulative class. No, don't give them SV, but these skills prove that manipulation is a part of PvE. I feel that the Mesmer should live up to this. That's all.

Van Goghs Ear · Feb 12, 2008, 02:07 AM // 02:07

Actually, the problem really has nothing to do with the mesmer skill line and more to do with the fact the way pve was designed fails. The most effective mesmer skills are long term shutdown (diversion, edenial, interrupts, etc), which is what makes them so effective in PvP, because most teams rely on a balanced dynamic in order to win, which usually involves healing/prot, passive defence/and proactive defence as well as damage and shutdown.

In PvE however, most mobs that you encounter are not balanced. They just throw 10 of the same thing at you with a sprinkle of other classes. So naturally it makes more sense to just get everything to ball up and nuke the crap out of it. If each mob was more balanced, meaning they had proper healing, passive defence, and damage then the necessity to bring finesse oriented classes like the dom mesmer would be more emphasized. If this was the case it would be really difficult to just fire and forget nuke.

But if you just want to make the mesmer more like other classes, it's kind of pointless since they can run most other caster classes and do it better just because they can nuke so much faster at the minor expense of a couple attribute points (unless you're one of those sillies that runs sup runes).

Anyways, it's too late at this point to really fix anything, hopefully they learned from their mistakes and will make PvE in GW2 a challenge.

Two April Mornings · Feb 12, 2008, 02:08 AM // 02:08

Mesmers are fine as is. The problem is that changing mesmer skills for PVE would most likely drastically affect PVP.

Backfire and empathy tear through PVE like butter, as do so many other hexes. Cry of Pain is an amazing skill. Those three alone on a bar with some random other skills are all you need for NM as a mesmer.

Mesmers shut down single targets, yes, but that's what they are made to do. Trying to fit them into the PVE trinities isn't going to happen. Mesmers are a PVE utility class.

I honestly do not think that a major rebalancing is needed. If you can't find a PuG as a mesmer, you can easily H+H everything.

juliets dagger · Feb 12, 2008, 02:09 AM // 02:09

Honestly? When I Hero/Hench as my Mesmer (with a full Illusion skill bar and a rez), I have an easier time than I do playing as any other class. She's fast, effective, and highly dangerous to both casters and melee attackers.

I don't really understand what all the fuss is about Mesmers. Either people skill their mesmer heroes to be ineffective, or they PUG with mesmers that make poor skill choices. Don't blame the class, blame the player.

I never leave a town without Gwen, Norgu, Dunham or Odurra.

You can't see me · Feb 12, 2008, 02:11 AM // 02:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Van Goghs Ear

Actually, the problem really has nothing to do with the mesmer skill line and more to do with the fact the way pve was designed fails. The most effective mesmer skills are long term shutdown (diversion, edenial, interrupts, etc), which is what makes them so effective in PvP, because most teams rely on a balanced dynamic in order to win, which usually involves healing/prot, passive defence/and proactive defence as well as damage and shutdown.

In PvE however, most mobs that you encounter are not balanced. They just throw 10 of the same thing at you with a sprinkle of other classes. So naturally it makes more sense to just get everything to ball up and nuke the crap out of it. If each mob was more balanced, meaning they had proper healing, passive defence, and damage then the necessity to bring finesse oriented classes like the dom mesmer would be more emphasized. If this was the case it would be really difficult to just fire and forget nuke.

But if you just want to make the mesmer more like other classes, it's kind of pointless since they can run most other caster classes and do it better just because they can nuke so much faster at the minor expense of a couple attribute points (unless you're one of those sillies that runs sup runes).

Anyways, it's too late at this point to really fix anything, hopefully they learned from their mistakes and will make PvE in GW2 a challenge.

I do not want to make mesmers as other classes. Yes, I want them to do damage, but not through the means of other classes. Manipulation should be viable not only with SS and SV, but with other mesmer skills in PvE. That's the point.

Most classes do the same thing.

Tanks do damage by hitting things.
Nukers do Damage by casting offensive spells.
Mesmers should do damage by manipulating their foes, as their description states. I feel that manipulation should play a higher role in damage dealing, in essence, making the Mesmer a stronger PvE class.

Numa Pompilius · Feb 12, 2008, 02:11 AM // 02:11

/signed.

Actually I think the entire GW skill system is in need of a major shake-up, not just the mesmers - all the professions have skills which don't belong there (e.g. Epidemic should be Necro, not Mesmer) and all the professions need to have their roles better defined. Mesmer is just the profession which suffers the most from having an unclear role.
But the OPs suggestions is a start.

You can't see me · Feb 12, 2008, 02:13 AM // 02:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Two April Mornings

Mesmers are fine as is. The problem is that changing mesmer skills for PVE would most likely drastically affect PVP.

Backfire and empathy tear through PVE like butter, as do so many other hexes. Cry of Pain is an amazing skill. Those three alone on a bar with some random other skills are all you need for NM as a mesmer.

Mesmers shut down single targets, yes, but that's what they are made to do. Trying to fit them into the PVE trinities isn't going to happen. Mesmers are a PVE utility class.

I honestly do not think that a major rebalancing is needed. If you can't find a PuG as a mesmer, you can easily H+H everything.

Only two of the three are mesmer skills that are not PvE only. PvE only skills are not the answer. There should be more viable choices than those two. Besides, often times those two skills prove useless, because your target is dead before you finish casting the hex. With more damage through manipulation, instead of hinderence through manipulation, the mesmer can triumph as a very well rounded class.

Two April Mornings · Feb 12, 2008, 02:14 AM // 02:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

Mesmer is just the profession which suffers the most from having an unclear role.

I think that Mesmers may have one of the most defined roles.