Curse

lustnlood · Mar 26, 2008, 05:24 PM // 17:24

[Interrupt/Spell conditioning Elite skills :

Air of disechantment
Arcane Languor
Enchanter's conundrum
Migrane
Power Block
Power Flux
Power leech
Psychic Distraction
Psychic instability
Simple Thievary
Stolen Speed
Tease

Pressure skills (useless but oh well... Some elites are uselss for other classes too) :

Vision of Regret
Signet of Midnight
Recurring Insecurity
Panic
Extend Conditions
Crippling Anguish
Fevered Dreams
Ineptitude

Basically useless in Pve and some in PvP too :

Echo
Energy Drain
Expel Hexes
Hex Eater Vortex
Illusionary Weaponry
Keystone Signet
Lyssa's Aura
Mantra of Recall
Vision of Regret
Symbols of inspiration
Shatter Storm

Can be used well and effectively (sort of) in PvE :

Energy Surge
Mantra of Recovery (in some cases)

Can be used very effectively in PvP :

Psychic Distraction
Power Block (in some cases)
Fevered Dreams (in specific groups)
Expel Hexes (why use a mesmer for something that requires 0 attribute points to use?)

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First off I would like to clearly state that I am more than proud to be called a Guild Wars player.

There is one thing though.... I have been playing mesmer from the very beginning of Guild wars, so I have seen it grow and evolve in all its aspects. (And i have to say that ANet has done a darn good job to make it one of the top tier games around)

What about mesmers? I mean every class has grown, become more powerful and competitive in comparison to the other professions. Necromancer being the most multi tasking class in the game. With each new update and expansion, the classes have grown to be more powerful and fun to play; but what about us mesmers?

Now, I don't really fancy complaining but pls ANet open your eyes on this one. True you gave the mesmers fast casting which is wooh... i can't say what an awsome attribute that is, but come on.. your gonna leave us with using flare and meteor shower for PvE just because we shoot matches faster than elementalists?

Energy surge was the breakthrough in mesmer elites for PvE, but how strong and effective can it be if it has a recharge of 20 seconds to go with it? Some might call it overpowered since it hit for 96 dmg with 12 dom magic which cannot be defended against; but i say how long will the guy be able to use it (this also goes for its non elite copy energy burn).... energy is bound to run out quickly if the guy is also using skills... and no, aneurysm is not as powerful and one had hoped for it to be. Also, Energy surge is an elite, so then why does it do the exact thing as energy burn which is not an elite?

A small and considerable change might be: energy surge – casting time 2, recharge 8, energy 8-10 so as to make it better than the normal energy burn with exactly the same attributes as the elite. Another tip might be changing wastrel’s worry to 2 seconds instead of 3. I mean let’s face the facts; how many monsters are you going to cast diversion or shame or any other same skill on in order to have wastrel’s or the other skill work. The same goes for PvP. Taking 2 skills out of 8 to either deal 60+ dmg or let their recharge hit +40 seconds is quite uncommonsensual.

I can't keep writing on every skill because this would take until tomorrow to read but please ANet pls reconsider the skill list you gave us to work with... no offense but looking deeply into it one can call it rubbish compared to other skill lists of other players, even looking at it from a damage dealing/ pressure point of view : and no conjure phantasm and conjure nightmare will not cut it.

One might ask : Why are you talking now? After 3 and a half years of Guild Wars gaming? I don't know. Maybe i'm just tired of banging my head against my monitor because of the rage accumulating, making mesmers look more and more of losers than anything else, to the point where there are small sects, if you may, that attempt to encourage mesmers not to give up on playing them because they are not as worthless as they appear to be... but in reality... how well can they really compete with the other classes?

How long has it been now? 5 years? After 5 years please fix mesmers. Make us able to compete with the other classes. Help me enjoy using actual mesmer skills to pve and make the class good for something apart from interrupting in PvP.

From the text describing mesmers in the Guild Wars : Nightfall Manuscripts book, mesmers are described as :

masterful manipulators, bending reality to their will. With illusion, inspiration and domination magic, they subvert the energy of their rivals, counter spells cast by their enemies and disrupt their foes. The Mesmer works equally well as a damage dealer and support character.

Doesn't that sound scary to you? YES it does... it pictures mesmers as if they were people capable of taking you and playing around with your head,taking you and shoving you into one of those mirror houses where your reflection is stretched and played around with. Well, the reality is totally opposite.. all they can do is conjure phantasm and conjue nightmare to turn your world around.

I think people are getting the point so im going to stop here for now before i get a panic attack 8D. But please ANet fix mesmers up. Give us an edge over other professions. Make us useful and recognizable as a good class.

Trub · Mar 26, 2008, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Wall...of....text.....going.......blind.
I dun think this belongs in Riverside.....but maybe Campfire...or even Glads?

Clarissa F · Mar 26, 2008, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Belongs in Campfire with the mesmer forum. Use search. Avarre's State of the Mesmer thread comes to mind.

Kattar · Mar 26, 2008, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Well said overall, but yeah, it belongs in Campfire.

As a side note, mesmers aren't going to get "fixed." There's nothing horribly wrong with them in PvP. If there were no one would play them. As such, look for things like PvE skills to come along to "fix" the class. That's all we're gonna get it seems.

All in all, mesmer skills may not compare in sheer ferocity to some skills or skill lines, but that's not what a mesmer is supposed to do. Finesse is key when playing. Not brutal destruction. Echo and Ineptitude are definitely not useless in PvE either, fyi.

I agree with you on most points, don't get me wrong. I would love things like Spiteful Spirit to be in the mesmer's bag of tricks. But it's probable not going to happen.

Complete class redesigns will only appear in GW2, unfortunately.

Shiney · Mar 26, 2008, 05:34 PM // 17:34

On the whole, I think you could use bullets or some such when listing skills. it would also help if you didn't stretch the page like that, makes it harder to read.

-Sonata- · Mar 26, 2008, 06:12 PM // 18:12

I'm too young to be fixed! I want to settle down someday!

Ok, joking aside, I'm going to agree with katsumi on a big point; Finesse is a big key for our class. I don't believe it should ever be a Mesmers duty to deal the amount of damage that an Ele can do, or a Rit on steroids.

That's not to say we don't have our painful hitting skills. Backfire can certainly be painful in PvE and PvP if the player doesn't notice it's on them right away. Cry of Pain, although a PvE only skill, hits hard. Echoing Cry of Frustration can be a double whammy.

I personally find that developing a Mesmer build revolves around a "purposeful intent". At least, that's how I develop mine. Find a single, primary purpose that I want to accomplish. For instance, I've been developing a build for both PvE and PvP that has a purposeful intent of disabling an enemies ability to use their bars, or at least, minimize their ability to use it to their full effectiveness. I call it the total Mind ****.

I hate showing my builds, but here's the baseline I've been working with.

[skill]Backfire[/skill][skill]Arcane Larceny[/skill][skill]Arcane Thievery[/skill][skill]Signet of Humility[/skill][skill]Empathy[/skill][skill]Cry of Frustration[/skill][skill]Simple Thievery[/skill][skill]Arcane Echo[/skill]

Keep in mind it's just a baseline. Res Signets are added depending on the arena and PvE skills, such as Cry of Pain are added for certain PvE areas.

No doubt I'll be making further adjustments to allow more functionality in the PvP area, such as deciding if any secondary skills could be used to further its function. I've only been testing it for a week, so...

Anyways, it's been working well so far and I've been called "Cruel" a few times.

But the point I'd wish to make is over the year I've been playing this character I've noticed that the class has a ton of flexability. No, it doesn't have the Smack Down Damage, but I do feel a Mesmers brutality comes from other areas.

I also don't think it's a matter of Mesmers needing a "Fix", as in a large overhaul, but rather there are some skills (meaning just a few) that could use a mild boost. Chaos Storm comes to mind as being one of them. Perhaps adding a small functionality change to certain Mantra skills. During just a random conversation one night in Kodash, some of us were talking that skills such as Mantra of Flame could act like Healing Ring. More, or less, just tossing the idea around, but an interesting idea nonetheless.

Alleji · Mar 26, 2008, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Sonata-

I personally find that developing a Mesmer build revolves around a "purposeful intent". At least, that's how I develop mine. Find a single, primary purpose that I want to accomplish. For instance, I've been developing a build for both PvE and PvP that has a purposeful intent of disabling an enemies ability to use their bars, or at least, minimize their ability to use it to their full effectiveness. I call it the total Mind ****.

I hate showing my builds, but here's the baseline I've been working with.

[skill]Backfire[/skill][skill]Arcane Larceny[/skill][skill]Arcane Thievery[/skill][skill]Signet of Humility[/skill][skill]Empathy[/skill][skill]Cry of Frustration[/skill][skill]Simple Thievery[/skill][skill]Arcane Echo[/skill]

Any build requires a purpose. You can't just throw 8 skills on a bar and expect to be effective, regardless of the class you're playing. This doesn't only apply to mesmers.

What you're trying to do with your bar is shutdown, and perhaps you just saw the most obvious way to do it (take away their skills = shutdown, duh) but I wouldn't say it's the most effective one. Diversion does a better job of shutting down an opponent than your three "thievery" skills combined. Migraine and a couple interrupts would also work better vs casters (most of the skills on your bar are dedicated to shutting down casters only anyway), plus you'd be doing some damage with degen, whereas your build does none. (At least in PvP. I guess in PvE mobs do cast through backfire... but isn't thievery kinda counter-productive then? You want mobs to cast spells through backfire, not steal them.)

If you wanna stick with thievery skills, I'd suggest signet of illusions as your elite, so you'd be able to use the skills you steal effectively.

Lastly, where do you find energy to do all of that? At the very least put power drain on your bar. You have points in inspiration for sighum anyway, so it probably won't even require any attribute adjustement.

Painbringer · Mar 26, 2008, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Wait a minute Do we have a duplicate post ? Same as the one in the mesmer forum?

Kattar · Mar 26, 2008, 06:50 PM // 18:50

I think the OP just reposted in Campfire, instead of waiting for it to be moved.

Lordhelmos · Mar 26, 2008, 06:57 PM // 18:57

The problem is not Mesmers, its the monsters in PvE that are too stupid to warrant the use of a Mesmer.

Mesmer is a wonderful class really. The PvE issue is that mesmers are most effective at powerful single target shutdown. It's not going to matter if you shutdown one enemy if there are 49 others with the exact same bar coming after you. If enemy mobs had more diversity, then mesmers would probably be more welcome in a balanced team.

Problem is that players know they can exploit the enemy AI with tank and nuke strategies or Ursan Blessing. If these methods are so effective, the player mindset is why bring a mesmer to bog down a team when another nuker or Ursan and explode the mobs faster and more effeciently?

Mesmers are a wonderful concept, are the most stylish, and definitely play a key role in the game. The issue is that the environment in which the Mesmer is forced to play is TOTAL CRAP. I mean whats the point in bringing a sniper rifle into the game when the map setup is one 20 foot room cramped with 10 people?

The sniper rifle is not a bad gun, it just doesn't fit the environment. Thats the issue with mesmers in PvE. However, in PvP mesmers definitely have a role. You aren't going to be getting far in GvG without someone diversioning key skills or shattering off prots during a spike. Not saying a Mesmer is required in PvP, but is most certainly DESIRED.

Hard Mode is another big culprit to Mesmer imbalance in PvE. This is namely because the casting times on monsters are so cranked that its near impossible to nail interrupts without some inhuman Gwen/Norgu-like reflexes. On top of that there aren't enough AoE interrupts on par with Cry of Frustration or large area increase cast time skills to warrant a Mesmer useful in HM. Most mesmers just play poor man's nukers to get by. This is clearly seen when Mesmers hang on to Cry of Pain just for the damage rather than the interruptability.

It really boils down the to simple fact that monsters in PvE are much easier to kill than to shutdown. Mesmers have to take extra effort or play out of role positions in a party to make themselves useful in PvE because mobs are so stupid. Changing any of the Mesmer skills to fit the idiocracy that is PvE and monster stupidity would just be dumbing down the Mesmer class into another nuker.

Pretty much its a lose-lose situation for Mesmers in PvE because there has been such a shoddy job done with monster reactions, versatility on monster bars, and just the sheer number of enemies in PvE that cause the incredibly powerful single target shutdown skills that are native to a Mesmer to be near useless.

I'd say that the Mesmer is the most ingenious thing to come out of Guildwars. The heart of the problem is that, when compared to a mesmer, the rest of the game just sucks. It's like Anet made a wonderful class, but then screwed it up by making 100 monsters in one mob carry the same skills, making mage class monsters rush in and bite your ankles like brainless rats, and cast 3 second spells in .1 second in Hard Mode.

Sure really, like a Mesmer is REALLY going to be useful under those conditions? However, ANET has already messed up the monster versatility and its too late to go back and change it. Without a complete revamp of the entire PvE environment, Mesmers will always be frustrated.

The only thing that keeps PvE mesmer in existence, is:

A.) The fact that Mesmer players know they are lightyears above the brainless mobs and pugs that swamp PvE.

B.) The Mesmer is the most stylish and intriguing class in the game, and experienced players know what its like to play a Mesmer against impossible odds and still make it, despite frustration.

C.) Mesmer look 100% better than any other class in the game as far as armor and appearances are concern. Half the reason for making a Mesmer is because you want to barbie it out.

D.) When you get sick of the brainless mobs of PvE, the tank and spank strategies, and the stupidness that is Ursan Blessing. The only way to infuse flavor into your Guildwars experience is to play a Mesmer. Because playing a Mesmer puts you on a level thats 10x higher than any PvE class in the game.

~

With that said, I don't think theres too much of an issue with Mesmer skills. Because formatting Mesmer skills to fit the PvE atmosphere would only just transform them into eles. That would be a supreme shame to the mesmer class, because eles and mindless nuking, as we all know, gets pretty damn boring.

However, I really think that in Guildwars 2, Anet needs to rethink the behavior of monsters and add more diversity to PvE. If Guildwars 2 is just going to be a brainless tank and spank expedition, with nothing but same classed monsters grouped in herds of 20 attacking you with physical damage despite 7/8 of their skills being ranged spells, well I don't think it would be a very good game.

The whole concept of the Mesmer class is really the only thing that shows us that Anet is capable of making more than just a subpar game atmosphere. It's a shame they wasted the utility of the entire class and brought down the enjoyment of PvE by making monsters so idiotic and flavorless.

-Sonata- · Mar 26, 2008, 07:17 PM // 19:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alleji

Any build requires a purpose. You can't just throw 8 skills on a bar and expect to be effective, regardless of the class you're playing. This doesn't only apply to mesmers.

Well aware of that, thanks! My point was when "developing" a build (And I said Mesmer because that's the class I am), when you're actually taking the time to craft something that you don't yank off of the pvx, you should have that purpose in mind before you start, test it, adjust it, change things as necessary.

Quote:

What you're trying to do with your bar is shutdown, and perhaps you just saw the most obvious way to do it (take away their skills = shutdown, duh) but I wouldn't say it's the most effective one. Diversion does a better job of shutting down an opponent than your three "thievery" skills combined. Migraine and a couple interrupts would also work better vs casters (most of the skills on your bar are dedicated to shutting down casters only anyway), plus you'd be doing some damage with degen, whereas your build does none. (At least in PvP. I guess in PvE mobs do cast through backfire... but isn't thievery kinda counter-productive then? You want mobs to cast spells through backfire, not steal them.)

Sigh...

This is why I hate posting builds, especially when I specifically stated it was just a baseline. Yes, it's obvious and I never claimed it was the most effective in any fashion. My hope is to, in the end, make it into something that has the potential to be most effective.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sonata

that has a purposeful intent of disabling an enemies ability to use their bars, or at least, minimize their ability to use it to their full effectiveness.

I hate showing my builds, but here's the baseline I've been working with.

It was nothing more than what was stated; Baseline. A starting point to work off of. It's not a final product. It's not even close to being a final product. It is and will go through adjustments, including the ones you suggested, some of which have been already been tried and when I make a final decision of what seems to have been most effective in all tests I could very well include. Thank you for the "duh", anyways.

As for energy, I have certain sets of armor and crafted weapons to handle high energy builds, especially when testing. When I'm satisified with what skills I will keep in any "final product" the ones that don't cut it get replaced with skills such as power drain (which I have on my bar now and rarely leaves it). Again, "baseline" was a keyword I put in there on purpose.

I apologise having to play the corrective here, but I don't want any confusion by readers as to what I had first posted.

Skyy High · Mar 26, 2008, 07:23 PM // 19:23

I think it's more the fact that your "baseline" has obvious improvements that can be made without even needing to take it out and play with it. That's not "refinement", that's "knowing what makes a good build good."

@OP: E-Surge is energy denial. Energy denial has been nerfed heavily over the course of the game's lifetime...mainly because it was so powerful early on. An 8 recharge E-Surge would be hideously OP-ed.

Songbringer · Mar 26, 2008, 07:32 PM // 19:32

Sounds to me like you are trying to be some great damage dealer. Thats not what a mesmer is.

-Sonata- · Mar 26, 2008, 07:40 PM // 19:40

Sky,

I know there are obvious improvements. That can be seen by the most novice Guild Wars player. I never claimed the opposite, nor did I claim the baseline was wickedly awsome in any manner.

Obvious, or not. It was a mere example of the starting point I used. That's it. There really isn't any hidden message in that statement.

upier · Mar 26, 2008, 10:03 PM // 22:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Sonata-

For instance, I've been developing a build for both PvE and PvP that has a purposeful intent of disabling an enemies ability to use their bars, or at least, minimize their ability to use it to their full effectiveness. I call it the total Mind ****.

I hate showing my builds, but here's the baseline I've been working with.

[skill]Backfire[/skill][skill]Arcane Larceny[/skill][skill]Arcane Thievery[/skill][skill]Signet of Humility[/skill][skill]Empathy[/skill][skill]Cry of Frustration[/skill][skill]Simple Thievery[/skill][skill]Arcane Echo[/skill]

Keep in mind it's just a baseline. Res Signets are added depending on the arena and PvE skills, such as Cry of Pain are added for certain PvE areas.

If this is for PvE - then this is bad.
The problem with Thievery and Larceny is that they are one of the few - if not the ONLY skill that actually gets worse the more you invest into it (in PvE!). Those skills don't have a normal recharge (outside of Simple) - so by raising dom you are giving them a longer recharge. And the problem with this is that foes die way to fast before Larceny/Thievery revert back to their normal forms. So what happens is that after the first foe - you are going into the battle with the next one with 7 or less skills.
Larceny/Thievery are nice concepts. They disable a spell in a VERY easy fashion.
And that is why - if they should be used - they should be used in non-domination builds. Otherwise they are simply not worth it in PvE. You lose them for too long to make the skills worth it!
(There is also the issue of stealing already disabled/stolen skills which lowers the effectiveness of this build even more!)

SoH - disabling their elite is sweet - but you are also giving up a skill slot for that. Once again - the foes will die too fast for it to matter. It would be interesting to try SoH with using Assassin's Promise as your elite - since that way you could disable elites of multiple foes.
Also CoP just runs circles around Backfire. And even more if you AP it.

And like mentioned - some e-management would be sweet. Either Power Drain or AI - once again - they are even godlier if used with AP.
Seriously AP is so good that it's rarely worth using any other elite on a mesmer in PvE. The guys have some sweet normal skills and AP enables you to bypass their biggest drawback in PvE - their recharge.

Just some things to consider when you get back to working on the build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Songbringer

Sounds to me like you are trying to be some great damage dealer. Thats not what a mesmer is.

Then the class is forever doomed in PvE.
If the class can't do damage - then there is no place for it in PvE.

Luckily the class can do damage - it's just boring as hell compared to what else the class can do.

-Sonata- · Mar 27, 2008, 02:05 AM // 02:05

It's not PvE, nor is it PvP. It was just the slab of clay, so to speak, to get started. Nothing more, nothing less.

Thank you for mentioning Assassin's Promise. Wasn't something I considered. In fact, it never entered my mind, but I've written it down to give it a try. Sitting here I can see how it can work very well, but I'll surely try it in game to get the best feel.

SoH, although, I don't consider it a sacrifice of a skill slot for PvE and especially not in PvP where I often echo SoH. But anyways, in PvE I use it often, and have for a long time, especially dungeon wise where end bosses just don't fall as quick (at least for me!) & HM. I find it to be well worth the taking, but I only speak for me.

We'll see though. Like I've mentioned, it's a work in progress and I have some ideas of other combinations and swaps I'm going to try to figure out the most effecient and effective combinations. It's something I play around with when I have some free time and am not much in any mood to tackle more time consuming tasks. It's something I've always done; Just seeing what one can come up with. More often than not things flop, but no harm in experimenting