Curse

DarkSpirit · Mar 12, 2008, 08:50 PM // 20:50

If you want to make a SoI Me/E, you may as well mix skills from different attribute lines that synergize with one another, like:

1) Steam/Earthen Shackle and Burning
2) Enervating Charge and Glowstone/Stoning

In other words, dont be a second-class nuker, be more than any Ele can hope to be.

Kwan Xi · Mar 13, 2008, 02:42 AM // 02:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by cgruber

Ether tap is horrid compared to auspicious incantation. +25 e skill with auspicious will give back 50+

Did you mean Energy Tap? Ok then bring that instead what do I care? Ether way my PvE build I replaced Tap with an Asuran Summon because many of my skills have long recharge times, but yeah if Asupcious Incantation is better go with that if you can live with increased recharge times with your current skill bar.

Kraviec · Mar 22, 2008, 09:44 PM // 21:44

Pain Inverter
Empathy
Echo [E]
Cry of Pain
Power Drain
Drain Enchantment
Signet of Humility
Rez

Fast Casting: 9+1
Domination Magic 12+1+1
Inspiration Magic 9

Pain Inverter on AoE dmg dealers, Empathy on the guy in the center of a mob, then Echo, Cry of Pain, echoed Cry of Pain. Power Drain and Drain Enchantment for e-management. Signet of Humility on key elites, mainly heals. Damage on Sunspear r8 is 160, which is armor ignoring and "in the area", which means quite big killzone.

DarkSpirit · Mar 23, 2008, 12:31 AM // 00:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

I'd prefer dual attunements for fire nuking skills. But whatever works I suppose.

How about using [skill]arcane mimicry[/skill] and get [skill]elemental attunement[/skill] from an ally?

Something like this maybe?

[skill]Mark of Rodgort[/skill][skill]Glowing Gaze[/skill][skill]Steam[/skill][skill]Frozen Burst[/skill][skill]Auspicious Incantation[/skill][skill]Arcane Mimicry[/skill][skill]Signet of Illusions[/skill][skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill]

upier · Mar 23, 2008, 07:14 AM // 07:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

In other words, dont be a second-class nuker, be more than any Ele can hope to be.

With this?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Something like this maybe?

[skill]Mark of Rodgort[/skill][skill]Glowing Gaze[/skill][skill]Steam[/skill][skill]Frozen Burst[/skill][skill]Auspicious Incantation[/skill][skill]Arcane Mimicry[/skill][skill]Signet of Illusions[/skill][skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill]

Dear heavens! I am pretty sure that eles have dreams of this kind of builds. Well better yet - nightmares ...
And you'd run 16 in illusion for THAT?

The build strikes me as a cheap version of SF+Blinding Flash+Deep Freeze.
A very cheap version ...

On-topic:
A FC nuker is fun for the easier areas where the foes are much more susceptible to ele damage. But if you feel that nuking is fun - for later areas I'd suggest a chaos nuker.
A bunch of domination chaos damage skills - paired with Assassin's Promise to bypass the recharge. Stuff like CoP, Burn, Unnatural, Shatter Ench, Spiritual, Power Drain/AI, AP, Kitah's/Ethereal Burden.
Considering you do around 300 unconditional damage + are able to interrupt + additional damage AND ench removal + slowdowns AND you are able to unleash that versus pretty much every foe you run into due to AP - I'd prefer it.
It doesn't look as nice as dropping a Firestorm though ...

DarkSpirit · Mar 23, 2008, 09:37 AM // 09:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

A bunch of domination chaos damage skills - paired with Assassin's Promise to bypass the recharge. Stuff like CoP, Burn, Unnatural, Shatter Ench, Spiritual, Power Drain/AI, AP, Kitah's/Ethereal Burden.
Considering you do around 300 unconditional damage + are able to interrupt + additional damage AND ench removal + slowdowns AND you are able to unleash that versus pretty much every foe you run into due to AP - I'd prefer it.

First of all you have chosen skills from 4 branches, Deadly Arts, Inspiration, Illusion, and Domination. With maxed SS and maxed Dom:

CoP - nice PvE skill 100 damage AoE at maxed ss rank for 10e but conditional on interrupting a hexed foe
Unnatural - 79 damage (Dom)
Shatter - Conditional again. 15e 25s recharge 106 damage(Dom)
Spiritual - I am a fan of this skill. 79 damage, AoE if near a spirit. 10e (Dom)

You have an unconditional damage of 158 damage from unnatural and spiritual on a SINGLE target for 10e.

If you also count in maxed CoP (requires interrupt), and Shatter Enchant (requires enchanted foe) for an additional 40e (counting in the mesmer hex kitah's burden for CoP), then you are right that you have 364 damage on a SINGLE target and 100 AoE damage (from CoP). You also need an additional 5e for AP since your chosen skills have terrible recharge on their own. This gives a total energy cost of 55e.

mine:

Mark of Rodgort - 4s burning (let me discount this to just 14 x 4 = 56 armor ignoring damage assuming that I only trigger it once per target, although the hex lasts for 37s per cast) AoE for 15e
Glowing Gaze - 53 fire damage for 5e
Steam - 104 cold damage for 5e
Frozen Burst - 90 cold damage aoe for 15e

That is an unconditional 303 elemental damage to a SINGLE target and 146 AoE for 40e.

Your damage number is higher on that single target (taking my discount of only 4s of burning for a hex that lasts 37s otherwise MoR would be 518 armor ignoring damage over 37s) for a cost of 15e more but it requires that the target be interrupted and enchanted, otherwise it is much lower. Furthermore, you dont have AoE slow from a single cast since Kitah's only slows 1 enemy for an expensive 15e, and you dont inflict blind so you have less defensive skills against melee attackers. You can argue that yours include an interrupt and removes enchantment, but with my usual lag, I would rather let my heroes handle the interrupting and enchantment removal can be easily fitted into a hero's (or even hench) skill bar. Even the OP's build out-damages yours too, by the way.

upier · Mar 23, 2008, 12:36 PM // 12:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

First of all you have chosen skills from 4 branches, Deadly Arts, Inspiration, Illusion, and Domination. With maxed SS and maxed Dom:

CoP - nice PvE skill 100 damage AoE at maxed ss rank for 10e but conditional on interrupting a hexed foe
Unnatural - 79 damage (Dom)
Shatter - Conditional again. 15e 25s recharge 106 damage(Dom)
Spiritual - I am a fan of this skill. 79 damage, AoE if near a spirit. 10e (Dom)

You have an unconditional damage of 158 damage from unnatural and spiritual on a SINGLE target for 10e.

If you also count in maxed CoP (requires interrupt), and Shatter Enchant (requires enchanted foe) for an additional 40e (counting in the mesmer hex kitah's burden for CoP), then you are right that you have 364 damage on a SINGLE target and 100 AoE damage (from CoP). You also need an additional 5e for AP since your chosen skills have terrible recharge on their own. This gives a total energy cost of 55e.

mine:

Mark of Rodgort - 4s burning (let me discount this to just 14 x 4 = 56 armor ignoring damage assuming that I only trigger it once per target, although the hex lasts for 37s per cast) AoE for 15e
Glowing Gaze - 53 fire damage for 5e
Steam - 104 cold damage for 5e
Frozen Burst - 90 cold damage aoe for 15e

That is an unconditional 303 elemental damage to a SINGLE target and 146 AoE for 40e.

Your damage number is higher on that single target (taking my discount of only 4s of burning for a hex that lasts 37s otherwise MoR would be 518 armor ignoring damage over 37s) for a cost of 15e more but it requires that the target be interrupted and enchanted, otherwise it is much lower. Furthermore, you dont have AoE slow from a single cast since Kitah's only slows 1 enemy for an expensive 15e, and you dont inflict blind so you have less defensive skills against melee attackers. You can argue that yours include an interrupt and removes enchantment, but with my usual lag, I would rather let my heroes handle the interrupting and enchantment removal can be easily fitted into a hero's (or even hench) skill bar. Even the OP's build out-damages yours too, by the way.

CoP:
The damage will be inflicted on a hexed target regardless of interruption.

You missed E-Burn:
96 damage.
Which means Unnatural, Spiritual, Burn, CoP. Pretty much non-contitional - and with 14 in dom- that would make for around 300 damage. Plus the conditional Shatter.
And with AP - most of the time - once the cycle is though - the foes will be dead. That is - unless you are soloing everything.
Depending on the area - stuff like Shatter Hex is a nice option instead of Spiritual/Unnatural.

Burdens are added because they:
1. don't scale
2. they give back 10+ energy once they end
Empathy would be an option - but if you go with AI - I'd rather have a 15 energy spell then a 10.
Burden is in the build to trigger Cry, slow down foes (which is nice BUT not really needed) and to give back quite some energy - on their own and though AI.

Attribute distribution:
14 dom - which means that people who like sup runes can either raise it or waste the additional points in other lines.
FC is bonus. Not exactly needed in PvE. 6 + 1 is pretty much all that is needed.
Burdens last 10 secs and give back 10 energy at 0 Illusion. The higher you go - the more energy you get back. At 6 in illusion the spell pays for itself. Although I wouldn't go that high.
AP lasts 5 secs and gives back 5 energy at 0. A few points is a reasonable investment.

So that means I currently do more chaos damage then you deal ele damage.
Plus Frozen Burst is PBAOE. But considering how the big selling point of your sup rune use always was kiting - I kinda doubt that will happen.

Have a good one.

weretoad · Mar 23, 2008, 12:36 PM // 12:36

last night i had a dream where you use, signet of illusions+maelstorm+savanh heat,+earth quake in that order, it traps them in the heat, due to maelstorm slowing them down and the knock down

DarkSpirit · Mar 23, 2008, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

CoP:
The damage will be inflicted on a hexed target regardless of interruption.

You missed E-Burn:
96 damage.
Which means Unnatural, Spiritual, Burn, CoP. Pretty much non-contitional - and with 14 in dom- that would make for around 300 damage. Plus the conditional Shatter.
And with AP - most of the time - once the cycle is though - the foes will be dead. That is - unless you are soloing everything.
Depending on the area - stuff like Shatter Hex is a nice option instead of Spiritual/Unnatural.

Burdens are added because they:
1. don't scale
2. they give back 10+ energy once they end
Empathy would be an option - but if you go with AI - I'd rather have a 15 energy spell then a 10.
Burden is in the build to trigger Cry, slow down foes (which is nice BUT not really needed) and to give back quite some energy - on their own and though AI.

Attribute distribution:
14 dom - which means that people who like sup runes can either raise it or waste the additional points in other lines.
FC is bonus. Not exactly needed in PvE. 6 + 1 is pretty much all that is needed.
Burdens last 10 secs and give back 10 energy at 0 Illusion. The higher you go - the more energy you get back. At 6 in illusion the spell pays for itself. Although I wouldn't go that high.
AP lasts 5 secs and gives back 5 energy at 0. A few points is a reasonable investment.

So that means I currently do more chaos damage then you deal ele damage.
Plus Frozen Burst is PBAOE. But considering how the big selling point of your sup rune use always was kiting - I kinda doubt that will happen.

Have a good one.

To be fair I had to match level 16 Dom with level 16 illusions in my calculations. If you have added more defensive skills, which is more important, you wont even need that extra 75hp. Fine you have 354 unconditional damage (still lower than the OP's build damage) on a SINGLE target but adding energy burn also adds 10e into your already high 55e.

Considering:

1) You dont have AoE slow
2) You dont inflict blind against melee attackers
3) Your energy requirement is extremely high for a mesmer (65e). Sure, you rely on AP and hope that your target dies fast, but I think you would still run into energy problems in most practical situations.
4) You have much lower FC to cast so many skills
5) You have a lower AoE damage.
5) I gave you a BIG discount on my Mark of Rodgort damage calculation. In terms of damage over time, I dont think you could beat mine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by weretoad

last night i had a dream where you use, signet of illusions+maelstorm+savanh heat,+earth quake in that order, it traps them in the heat, due to maelstorm slowing them down and the knock down

Yes we can do that to boost the damage to a much higher level (just Savannah Heat alone gives 315 damage and we can AoE slow the mob around it), use extremely high energy spells, to easily win this number game, but I believe in having some amount of defense for the team, using faster recharge spells, and not having an unusually high energy requirement for my mesmer, so I invested on that.

upier · Mar 23, 2008, 05:31 PM // 17:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

To be fair I had to match level 16 Dom with level 16 illusions in my calculations. If you have added more defensive skills, which is more important, you wont even need that extra 75hp. Fine you have 354 unconditional damage (still lower than the OP's build damage) on a SINGLE target but adding energy burn also adds 10e into your already high 55e.

Considering:

1) You dont have AoE slow
2) You dont inflict blind against melee attackers
3) Your energy requirement is extremely high for a mesmer (65e). Sure, you rely on AP and hope that your target dies fast, but I think you would still run into energy problems in most practical situations.
4) You have much lower FC to cast so many skills
5) You have a lower AoE damage.
5) I gave you a BIG discount on my Mark of Rodgort damage calculation. In terms of damage over time, I dont think you could beat mine.

1. Your AoE slowdown is of nearby range.
2. My heroes bring Aegis/Defensive Anthem. Hell they could bring BSurge also. Problem solved.
3. Why would I rely on "hoping" that things die fast enough?
And in most practical situations - I probably won't even get around to unleashing all my skills. I mean seriously - If I do 300+ damage + I have additionally 5ish heroes to do damage also - how many foes do you know that are able to take THAT much damage and not just die?
4. That matters because ... ?
5. Your AoE damage requires you stand next to foes. And it's ele damage. So if you are kitting - you have NO AoE damage. My AoE on the other hand is CoP. Recharged by AP. And I can be miles away from the action.
6. My foes die. Damage over time isn't a selling point for me. That's also an issue with the OP. He presumes that all foes will live for the whole duration of the hex/burning. In which case we can calculate my Shatter in also. I mean we are running the optimal scenario.

The bigger problem though is that you play as an ele. And I would much rather have a real ele for that job. SF+Blinding Flash+Deep Freeze.
Your build doesn't bring anything to the table that a real ele couldn't do.

DarkSpirit · Mar 23, 2008, 08:37 PM // 20:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

1. Your AoE slowdown is of nearby range.
2. My heroes bring Aegis/Defensive Anthem. Hell they could bring BSurge also. Problem solved.
3. Why would I rely on "hoping" that things die fast enough?
And in most practical situations - I probably won't even get around to unleashing all my skills. I mean seriously - If I do 300+ damage + I have additionally 5ish heroes to do damage also - how many foes do you know that are able to take THAT much damage and not just die?
4. That matters because ... ?
5. Your AoE damage requires you stand next to foes. And it's ele damage. So if you are kitting - you have NO AoE damage. My AoE on the other hand is CoP. Recharged by AP. And I can be miles away from the action.
6. My foes die. Damage over time isn't a selling point for me. That's also an issue with the OP. He presumes that all foes will live for the whole duration of the hex/burning. In which case we can calculate my Shatter in also. I mean we are running the optimal scenario.

If you are counting in your hero's damage/defensive skills on top of yours then of course, it would not be a fair comparison.

Also many HM monsters can take more damage than that, plus the fact that they have heals either from themselves or their monks to negate your damage. The energy management of your build is weak. AP only returns 17 energy at level 12 deadly arts. You plan to max Dom, pump points into illusion, and inspiration so I doubt your deadly arts level is high. PDrain has a nice energy return but it is highly conditional. My guess is you would be resorting to wand damage most of the time when you run dry.

Elemental attunement is a much better energy management skill since it returns 50% base energy cost of my elemental skills, this means if I use up 40e on my elemental skills, I get 20e back unconditionally. In fact, I may have over-estimated my energy needs and can replace Auspicious Incantation with a damage skill instead. I can take wandering eye (97 aoe damage) or flame burst (127 aoe damage for synergy with elemental attunement) or Rodgort's Invocation (127 aoe damage + 42 aoe damage from 3 seconds aoe burning + synergy with elemental attunement) and still not overshoot your build's energy requirements. There, I just overshot your damage number even with the MoR discount.

So now my build has:

1) More defense (i.e. Blind)
2) More AoE damage
3) Less energy intensive
4) AoE slow instead of your single target slow.
5) Faster Cast
6) And more unconditional single target damage than yours.

Quote:

The bigger problem though is that you play as an ele. And I would much rather have a real ele for that job. SF+Blinding Flash+Deep Freeze.
Your build doesn't bring anything to the table that a real ele couldn't do.

SF+Blinding Flash+Deep Freeze is alot of energy and you are probably having a low level Deep Freeze and relying just on its slowing capability than on its cold damage.

The goal in PvE is to complete the mission/quest as fast as possible with the minimum casualties, so why should I care as long as I can achieve that goal faster on my mesmer versus your mesmer.

upier · Mar 23, 2008, 11:26 PM // 23:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

If you are counting in your hero's damage/defensive skills on top of yours then of course, it would not be a fair comparison.

I pretty much stopped reading there.
Arcane Mimicry.
You NEED an ele with Ele attunement on your team for your build to function. So we are not dealing with a one man build in your case. We are dealing with a two man build - and the result of that can not currently be compared to my build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Also many HM monsters can take more damage than that, plus the fact that they have heals either from themselves or their monks to negate your damage. The energy management of your build is weak. AP only returns 17 energy at level 12 deadly arts. You plan to max Dom, pump points into illusion, and inspiration so I doubt your deadly arts level is high. PDrain has a nice energy return but it is highly conditional. My guess is you would be resorting to wand damage most of the time when you run dry.

Elemental attunement is a much better energy management skill since it returns 50% base energy cost of my elemental skills, this means if I use up 40e on my elemental skills, I get 20e back unconditionally. In fact, I may have over-estimated my energy needs and can replace Auspicious Incantation with a damage skill instead. I can take wandering eye (97 aoe damage) or flame burst (127 aoe damage for synergy with elemental attunement) or Rodgort's Invocation (127 aoe damage + 42 aoe damage from 3 seconds aoe burning + synergy with elemental attunement) and still not overshoot your build's energy requirements. There, I just overshot your damage number even with the MoR discount.

So now my build has:

1) More defense (i.e. Blind)
2) More AoE damage
3) Less energy intensive
4) AoE slow instead of your single target slow.
5) Faster Cast
6) And more unconditional single target damage than yours.

Regarding your energy issues:

Two pictures taken in a matter of seconds.
As you can see - I used up pretty much all the skills on my bar on this particular foe - as they are recharging. I am running 35 energy.
And once the foes die - I returned to max energy. Constantly.
And I even used up Chaos - because I can't run CoP on a PvP mesmer. And Chaos is 5 additional energy.
And once the foe died - I was at max energy, with all my skills recharged and ready for the next target.
Do I use tons of energy?
Hell yeah!
Do I get back tons of energy?
Hell yeah!

The attribute allocation:

Did the heroes help in taking down the foe?
Yeah, they did. But I always said that this wasn't a solo build. And that's why it works. I don't solo PvE. It's much easier this way.

Edit: Ohh and I didn't mean that it would be enough to take down foes with 300 damage. What I meant is that the foes shouldn't pose a problem when I am doing 300 damage AND have 5-ish heroes/hench/people with me dealing damage also.

ccruzp · Mar 24, 2008, 12:36 AM // 00:36

IMHO SoI nuckers are not really effective (aka suck), you will probably go all Fire for the high damage/burning and get held back by Recharge and/or Energy making FC rather useless, going Duall Attunement on a ele is just plain easier, SF is probably more Effective dmg wise and MB is quite good to fit utility spells on you bar(maybe SoI beats MB for mesmer utilitys but idk).

If you really want a SoI Ele mesmer ild do something like DarkSpirit suggested, more of a Utility rote w/ spells from several attributes. Cant help much about the build but i would defnetly take Deep Freeze and Auspicious for e-manage and snare, but keep in mind you need 30 energyto pull it off, so keep a 30/-2 set for the 30 Energy cost E-manage.

My personal advice though, if you want to nuck make a necro/ele/rit(?) or if you really want a mesmer nuker try a Chaos nucker(i personaly dont know if it works but i do bring CoP on my necro on the rare occasions i have a Mesmer Hero/party member).

DarkSpirit · Mar 24, 2008, 03:52 AM // 03:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

..snip..

Fighting a dummy (who cant heal and cant be healed) along with your heroes is not going to convince me of anything. Everyone expects a full party to accompany our builds but must you bring in your mesmer heroes and equip them both with chaos storms to kill a STATIONARY dummy just to prove how effective your mesmer build is?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ccruzp

Cant help much about the build but i would defnetly take Deep Freeze and Auspicious for e-manage and snare, but keep in mind you need 30 energyto pull it off, so keep a 30/-2 set for the 30 Energy cost E-manage.

I thought about Deep Freeze. Deep Freeze costs 10e more than Frozen Burst, and gives 2 more seconds of AoE slow and has a wider radius but same damage. I can do better with that extra 10e. In any case, it may not be that bad because maxed Elemental Attunement lasts for 57s and returns 50% base energy cost of your elemental skills throughout that time. And when it ends, you can renew it again with Arcane Mimicry with only a short wait between recharge cycles.

If CoP is what you like, then by all means bring CoP for your last skill (the one replacing auspicious incantation) and rely on another mesmer in your party to cast the hex, in case you want to interrupt using your CoP. CoP has very nice AoE damage (100 aoe damage) at max SS rank but doesn't synergize with elemental attunement.

In actual combat, it is not just pure damage that wins, defensive skills, recharge time (I purposefully choose skills that have low recharge time, relative to how long their effect lasts, even though their damage numbers dont look as good on paper as others with higher recharge time), and energy management are also important.

As it stands now, I still have:

1) More defense (i.e. Blind)
2) More AoE damage
3) Less energy intensive
4) AoE slow instead of single target slow.
5) Faster Cast
6) And more unconditional single target damage

upier · Mar 24, 2008, 07:37 AM // 07:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Fighting a dummy (who cant heal and cant be healed) along with your heroes is not going to convince me of anything. Everyone expects a full party to accompany our builds but must you bring in your mesmer heroes and equip them both with chaos storms to kill a STATIONARY dummy just to prove how effective your mesmer build is?

The point wasn't to prove that it can kill. The point was to prove that the build can run on 35 energy. Which is one of your main concerns.
And chaos storm - like I said - was chosen because I can not run a PvE skill - and I needed something with a semi-equal effect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

I thought about Deep Freeze. Deep Freeze costs 10e more than Frozen Burst, and gives 2 more seconds of AoE slow and has a wider radius but same damage. I can do better with that extra 10e. In any case, it may not be that bad because maxed Elemental Attunement lasts for 57s and returns 50% base energy cost of your elemental skills throughout that time. And when it ends, you can renew it again with Arcane Mimicry with only a short wait between recharge cycles.

Hopefully you are aware that those aren't the only differences between DF and FB? Because you are KINDA forgetting to mention the most important one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

In actual combat, it is not just pure damage that wins, defensive skills, recharge time (I purposefully choose skills that have low recharge time, relative to how long their effect lasts, even though their damage numbers dont look as good on paper as others with higher recharge time), and energy management are also important.

As it stands now, I still have:

1) More defense (i.e. Blind)
2) More AoE damage
3) Less energy intensive
4) AoE slow instead of single target slow.
5) Faster Cast
6) And more unconditional single target damage

7. Takes up two PARTY slots.
8. Deals ele damage.
9. Requires you to tank.
10. Relies on one source of e-management with a very long recharge.
11. If you lose your elite - you are worthless. Contrary to just being less effective.
12. Worse e-management.
13. Requires not only a second party member (to FUNCTION!!!), but a party member of a specific class WITH a specific elite. And there are better options for an elite for that class.
14. How about if we don't go against a lvl 20, AL 60 foe? I would love to see how much more damage you do vs a RoT/GWEN/.... ranger? Or a warrior? Or a paragon?

DarkSpirit · Mar 24, 2008, 08:10 AM // 08:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The point wasn't to prove that it can kill. The point was to prove that the build can run on 35 energy. Which is one of your main concerns.
And chaos storm - like I said - was chosen because I can not run a PvE skill - and I needed something with a semi-equal effect.

Heroes can never equip PvE skills anyway. If you target a stationary dummy with so many chaos storms, you really dont need much energy because the dummy would just stay there and absorb ALL of its damage.

Quote:

7. Takes up two PARTY slots.

At least I dont need my target to sit still in chaos damage AoE to prove my point.

Quote:

8. Deals ele damage.

Ele DO deal more unconditional AoE damage than mesmers even taking armor ignoring chaos damage into account, unless you expect your targets to all sit still and not move.

Quote:

9. Requires you to tank.

Rubbish.

Quote:

10. Relies on one source of e-management with a very long recharge.

That sounds like your issue.

Quote:

11. If you lose your elite - you are worthless. Contrary to just being less effective.

Every build has its weakness and Signet of Humility is rare in PvE. Furthermore, without your AP, good luck waiting for all your long recharge skills to come back and you can say bye bye to your energy.

Quote:

12. Worse e-management.

Just dont miss with your AP, if your party members kill your target before you can cast AP, you are in trouble. Or if your party members take too long to kill because it runs to get healed, you may also be in trouble.

Quote:

13. Requires not only a second party member (to FUNCTION!!!), but a party member of a specific class WITH a specific elite. And there are better options for an elite for that class.
14. How about if we don't go against a lvl 20, AL 60 foe? I would love to see how much more damage you do vs a RoT/GWEN/.... ranger? Or a warrior? Or a paragon?

This is totally irrelevant when you have to take 2 heroes with you, add up damages from all 3 to try to challenge my 1 mesmer build. I dont see the point in this.

upier · Mar 24, 2008, 10:17 AM // 10:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Heroes can never equip PvE skills anyway. If you target a stationary dummy with so many chaos storms, you really dont need much energy because the dummy would just stay there and absorb ALL of its damage.
At least I dont need my target to sit still in chaos damage AoE to prove my point.

Did you get the point of WHY I used Chaos?
It's a 15 energy spell - doing roughly the same damage as CoP.
It was included to test if the build would run into energy issues. Since I am advertising CoP here I'd LOVE to take it - but sadly it's a PvE only skill.
The heros would get something else instead of CoP of course. Stuff like Shatter Hex, Power Spike, hell - because a lot of foes will stand in AoE I could even take CS. Plus the foe would be snared so ....
(That is IF I'd use them. My build does not rely on having very specific heros with me like yours does.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Ele DO deal more unconditional AoE damage than mesmers even taking armor ignoring chaos damage into account, unless you expect your targets to all sit still and not move.

Test on the PvP island:
16 illusion
MoR
GG
Steam
(the number next to the spell represents damage taken)

AL 60:
GG - 53
Steam - 104

AL 80:
GG - 37
Steam - 74

Al 100:
GG - 26
Steam - 52

Now lets take a walk though Torment. Which scenario is more plausible:
1. That foes will be running around with AL of 60?
2. That foes will have higher armour?

Will eles deal more damage?
That's irrelevant.
YOU won't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Rubbish.

How do you plan on hitting the foes with your FB otherwise? Or snare them?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

That sounds like your issue.

I gain energy from AI, AP AND Burden.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Every build has its weakness and Signet of Humility is rare in PvE. Furthermore, without your AP, good luck waiting for all your long recharge skills to come back and you can say bye bye to your energy.

If I lose AP I need to rely on normal recharges.
If you lose SoI - you are using skills at level 0.
Which one would hurt the player more?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Just dont miss with your AP, if your party members kill your target before you can cast AP, you are in trouble. Or if your party members take too long to kill because it runs to get healed, you may also be in trouble.

AP isn't my primary e-management. AP is my skill recharge modifier. The energy gained IS a bonus only.
IF I were to cast AP too late and the foe would be killed - I'd rely on the skills I didn't use already AND use it on the foe once other party members would take it down. Surely you are not suggesting that other party members would deal such minimal damage that making a kill would rely SOLELY on me.
Casting AP to early means the player made a mistake. Players failing at the game isn't an issue of the build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

This is totally irrelevant when you have to take 2 heroes with you, add up damages from all 3 to try to challenge my 1 mesmer build. I dont see the point in this.

I join a team. My only requiremet for my build to work is that other damage dealers deal damage. That's why I had two heroes with me.
You join a team. Your requirement for the team is for them to deal damage AND to take an ele WITH Ele Attunement.
I'd say that something like that IS relevant.

The big question is - why would you want to look pass the lovely chaos damage that the mesmer has access to and resort to damage that will get halved where you'll need it most?
You are not doing the class any favours by running a second grade ele.

Ohh and:

DarkSpirit · Mar 24, 2008, 03:45 PM // 15:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Did you get the point of WHY I used Chaos?
It's a 15 energy spell - doing roughly the same damage as CoP.
It was included to test if the build would run into energy issues. Since I am advertising CoP here I'd LOVE to take it - but sadly it's a PvE only skill.
The heros would get something else instead of CoP of course. Stuff like Shatter Hex, Power Spike, hell - because a lot of foes will stand in AoE I could even take CS. Plus the foe would be snared so ....
(That is IF I'd use them. My build does not rely on having very specific heros with me like yours does.)

Did you get the point that your reasoning of replacing CoP with Chaos Storm is irrelevant for your 2 heroes since they would never be able to use CoP anyway?

Quote:

Test on the PvP island:
16 illusion
MoR
GG
Steam

Yeah because I only have 2 attack skills? Right....And you conveniently choose to ignore MoR in your damage numbers, yet again.

Quote:

How do you plan on hitting the foes with your FB otherwise? Or snare them?

FB is nearby damage, not melee range, and it is mostly to snare melee attackers. As oppose to a stationary dummy, which you love to compare PvE performance against, melee monsters DO move in closer to attack my mesmer being a squishy.

But if you dont feel safe snaring them at a closer range (which is easy if you are used to it), then by all means replace FB with DF. The 10e differences gets halved by Elemental attunement anyway making it only a 5e difference.

Quote:

I gain energy from AI, AP AND Burden.

Burden? Didn't you just say that your Burden would not even pay for itself? So how would that result in a net energy gain?

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Burdens last 10 secs and give back 10 energy at 0 Illusion. The higher you go - the more energy you get back. At 6 in illusion the spell pays for itself. Although I wouldn't go that high.

The problem is, you are spreading your points across too many attributes. How many points are you putting into inspiration and deadly arts?

Quote:

If I lose AP I need to rely on normal recharges.

And the normal recharges of your skills are horrible. Unnatural Signet 40s, Spiritual 30s, Shatter Ench 25s, AI 25s, Kitah's Burden 30s.

Quote:

AP isn't my primary e-management. AP is my skill recharge modifier. The energy gained IS a bonus only.
IF I were to cast AP too late and the foe would be killed - I'd rely on the skills I didn't use already AND use it on the foe once other party members would take it down.

You better make sure you have good synchronization with your party members then or micro-manage your heroes/henchies because if you cast it too late, you would be wanding for awhile.

If you face hex removal your AP is also out.

Quote:

The big question is - why would you want to look pass the lovely chaos damage that the mesmer has access to and resort to damage that will get halved where you'll need it most?

Because, other than CoP, your chaos damage is all single target and how often do the monsters go 1 vs 8 in PvE? Furthermore, armor is not a big issue in PvE because I always bring a hero that can cause cracked armor (-20 armor up to 60AL) along with my nukers and monsters rarely have condition removal. Additionally, I have AoE burning that lasts for 37s which is 518 damage per foe and ignores armor.

But of course, your experiment with a single target stationary dummy would not show you what real PvE is like.

upier · Mar 24, 2008, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Did you get the point that your reasoning of replacing CoP with Chaos Storm is irrelevant for your 2 heroes since they would never be able to use CoP anyway?

So CS is a problem because it does too much damage?
At 14 dom it does 130 damage (IF the target is alive for 10 seconds).
CoP does 100 damage.

And like I said - I needed some heroes to do damage with me. Just like in a real party. (They didn't need to be mesmers. I just figured bringing two more mesmers with the same build would be a much bigger slap in the face since the build works.)
Or do you seriously solo everything? And how if your damage output is cut in half?
Ohh that's right - you burn them to death ...
Go-go power-wand!

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Yeah because I only have 2 attack skills? Right....

So your damage is cut in half for ALL ele damage once you target an AL 100 foe. My damage stays the same.
It doesn't matter if you bring 20 ele damage skills. They all get cut in half.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

FB is nearby damage and it is mostly to snare melee attackers. As oppose to a stationary dummy, which you love to compare PvE performance against, melee monsters DO move in closer to attack my mesmer being a squishy.

But if you dont feel safe snaring them at a closer range (which is easy if you have used to it), then by all means replace FB with DF. The 10e differences gets halved by Elemental attunement anyway making it only a 5e difference.

But as you've stated in your "why a sup rune is good" post - PvE is abusable. You can aggro, tank, kite and that is why the lack of 75 hp is less noticeable. But here you run up to foes or at least not kite them. SO in which case - wouldn't the extra HP help?
Plus if you the damage is extra - it comes into effect only if you do something stupid (like I said - not kite, break aggro, ...). Because then the damage should be added in the same category as my Shatter. Conditional.
Which lovers your damage output even MORE!
Besides - you have a problem with me using AP in the right moment and I am suppose to give you the benefit of a doubt that you function well when you are using a sup rune, don't kite, intentionally break distance, ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Burden? Didn't you just say that your Burden would not even pay for itself? So how would that result in a net energy gain?

So I use a 15 energy spell and get back 13 energy.
That's like saying that ZB doesn't have e-management built in because you only get back 7 energy and the spell costs 10.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

The problem is, you are spreading your points across too many attributes. How many points are you putting into inspiration and deadly arts?

I have already posted that.

The illusion line is a bonus only.
I've lowered inspiration because there is not much difference between using 11 or 10. So that I could raise DA because the bonus of it is sweet! Not only the energy - but rather giving me a few extra seconds.
But surely you don't think that every build should only include 2 lines now do you? Too much SoI?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

And the normal recharges of your skills are horrible. Unnatural Signet 40s, Spiritual 30s, Shatter Ench 25s, AI 25s, Kitah's Burden 30s.

So is your non SoIed damage.
We both use elites to bypass that. The difference is how effective one is if one loses the elite. And you are worse off.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

You better make sure you have good synchronization with your party members then or micro-manage your heroes/henchies because if you cast it too late, you would be wanding for awhile.

Although I did use AP on my heroes - and actually thought it works - I guess it was just a fluke. The heroes really are bad with it - so no - I wouldn't use it. Besides - I wouldn't use a mesmer hero. There are better options.
And why would good synch with party members be needed?
Do you think I get a "clear" when to drop my AP?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Because, other than CoP, your chaos damage is all single target and how often do the monsters go 1 vs 8 in PvE? Furthermore, armor is not a big issue in PvE because I always bring a hero that can cause cracked armor (-20 armor up to 60AL) along with my nukers and monsters rarely have condition removal. Additionally, I have AoE burning that lasts for 37s which totally ignore armor.
But of course, your experiment with a single target stationary dummy would not show you what real PvE is like.

I use single target heroes. We attack, we kill, we move to the next one.
I do love Vizunah though - and that is pretty much the only place where I always bring an ele.
And you are seriously delusional if you think that armour isn't an issue in PvE.
Ohh you aren't doing AoE burning. You are applying an AoE hex so that when the foe is hit by fire damage it goes up in flames. Otherwise you just have a hex.

You don't have Cracked. Just as you don't have Ele Atunnement.
My build works as it is. Yours needs a nanny.

The is no reason to consider taking you as a mesmer with your build. An ele would do better.
And it would really be AN ele - rather then a TWO eles.

Ohh and:

DarkSpirit · Mar 24, 2008, 06:48 PM // 18:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

And like I said - I needed some heroes to do damage with me. Just like in a real party. (They didn't need to be mesmers. I just figured bringing two more mesmers with the same build would be a much bigger slap in the face since the build works.)

You are setting your own experiment to purposefully skew the result in your favor. First of all, Chaos Storm is not that effective on a moving target, it has a narrow area (adjacent), and monsters easily move out of it in actual PvE, but it is very effective on a stationary target. A stationary target would, of course, absorb the full effect. Therefore, you purposefully bring it on both heroes, casting it on a stationary dummy, then give the excuse that you are simulating CoP, but CoP is a PvE skill that cant be equipped by heroes in the first place! But whatever, from your setup, it only takes time to kill the dummy and of course, it wouldn't take much energy from you considering the fact that your heroes are doing alot of the work to kill the single stationary dummy.

Quote:

So your damage is cut in half for ALL ele damage once you target an AL 100 foe. My damage stays the same.
It doesn't matter if you bring 20 ele damage skills. They all get cut in half.

So much for your over-generalization that all damage are havled. The damage reduction depends on the armor level of the target to that particular element.

Quote:

But as you've stated in your "why a sup rune is good" post - PvE is abusable. You can aggro, tank, kite and that is why the lack of 75 hp is less noticeable. But here you run up to foes or at least not kite them. SO in which case - wouldn't the extra HP help?

And your godly 75hp is going to save you from a party wipe when it happens? Do you know how much damage monsters do in HM to a mesmer?

Quote:

Plus if you the damage is extra - it comes into effect only if you do something stupid (like I said - not kite, break aggro, ...). Because then the damage should be added in the same category as my Shatter. Conditional.
Which lovers your damage output even MORE!

It is obvious that Shatter Enchantment requires the target to be enchanted in the first place. Kiting doesn't.

Quote:

Besides - you have a problem with me using AP in the right moment and I am suppose to give you the benefit of a doubt that you function well when you are using a sup rune, don't kite, intentionally break distance, ...

If your party members kill the monster before you can cast AP, you are screwed since your chosen skills have such horrible recharge. Are you denying that?

Quote:

So I use a 15 energy spell and get back 13 energy.

A single target slowing hex that has a negative energy return since it demands a high up-front cost is not worth it. That is even worse than FB, with AoE slow, extra damage, and lower energy cost! And with elemental attunement I have half the energy back immediately. Good luck waiting 10 seconds for the energy return and pray that you dont have more than 1 melee attacker chasing you.

Quote:

I've lowered inspiration because there is not much difference between using 11 or 10. So that I could raise DA because the bonus of it is sweet! Not only the energy - but rather giving me a few extra seconds.
But surely you don't think that every build should only include 2 lines now do you? Too much SoI?

DA at level 7 only gives a net energy return of 12-5 = 7, which is a pitiful amount compared to your total energy cost. AI is good for 1 cast, but AI has a 25s recharge per use, unless your target dies first.

Quote:

So is your non SoIed damage.
We both use elites to bypass that. The difference is how effective one is if one loses the elite. And you are worse off.

Then dont use it against monsters with Sig of Humility (which is rare), which would also mess up your build too. Hex removal, however, is more common which would mess up your AP. This is PvE afterall so you can know ahead of time what monsters you would be facing and prepare for it.

Quote:

Although I did use AP on my heroes - and actually thought it works - I guess it was just a fluke. The heroes really are bad with it - so no - I wouldn't use it. Besides - I wouldn't use a mesmer hero. There are better options.
And why would good synch with party members be needed?

A sync with your party is needed because you dont want them to kill the target before you have the chance to cast AP.

Quote:

I use single target heroes. We attack, we kill, we move to the next one.

And if the monsters wait for you and queue up to attack one by one that would work great, but they dont. Single targeting makes it easy to get overwhelmed when facing a large mob, which exists outside of Vizunah. If PvE is 1 vs 8 most of the time, then you would be right. Unfortunately that is not the case, unlike your single stationary dummy experiment would portray.

All the monsters move and attack while you are attacking that single monsters. Melee monsters would be chasing your casters around, not giving them much chance to cast. Monsters that are injured can run away, get healed, and your damage negated.

Quote:

You don't have Cracked. Just as you don't have Ele Atunnement.
My build works as it is. Yours needs a nanny.

I dont need cracked armor to work but cracked armor would help. Surely you are not asumming that I am running solo.

Quote:

The is no reason to consider taking you as a mesmer with your build. An ele would do better.
And it would really be AN ele - rather then a TWO eles.

And why are you comparing a mesmer to an ele? They are different like apples and oranges. While you are at it, why dont you compare a monk to a warrior?