Curse

samcobra · Mar 09, 2008, 03:53 AM // 03:53

[wiki]Cry of Frustration[/wiki]
So Guud!

Alex the Great · Mar 10, 2008, 12:54 AM // 00:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Croix_Raul

Let my say this after playing for 1 yrs ++ playing mesmer in PvE is nothing more then a annoying Experience before heros came out.

PuG Comments:
-like omg you sux
-kick the mesmer they useless grab the necro SS
-Sorry we don't need a mesmer
Etc etc the list goes on

We can keep saying for years nothing ever change and yes it have been that long.

10 years kids shout: omg i am pawn by a mesmer!!!in PvP(so the start of Nerf the mesmer Campaign) Can't beat them nerf them,gather anti mesmer protester and nerf whatever good spell they have left.

Apart from the side track there a more and more unbalance within the game and Anet admin is unable to fix it as with each chapter adding their problem grows it only chapter 3 and they already have their hand full.

And With each changes the problem increase as well as randomized their inability to balance the game.
Public opinions also play a part as people opinion differ from person to person
And with Anet trying to win public support you can clearly see how thing can get out of hand

you act as if this is 1936 Germany and mesmers are Jewish.

it's not that bad

Theosephus · Mar 10, 2008, 07:07 AM // 07:07

Fast casting isn't as functional in PvE as it is in PvP. The mesmer is possibly the most useful secondary class in the game, but as a primary it falls short.

i still dislike the skill-balances of late, it seems like they are listening to those who complain the loudest and the largest group of complainers. it really is in their interests to balance skills according to the majority, but as a result they don't end up making the best decision for the game's balance, just the game's survival. a poor show IMO. you need giant balls to make unpopular changes in the face of a fickle populace, and Anet (perhaps sensibly) has none. survival at the cost of objectivity.

we see popular classes getting a lot of attention and thus end up functionally rich, while unpopular classes get very little attention, resulting in a class with less personality. feel free to dissect this to the point of disproving it, but if you're just going to whine you're wasting your fingertips.

LightningHell · Mar 10, 2008, 04:37 PM // 16:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theosephus

i still dislike the skill-balances of late, it seems like they are listening to those who complain the loudest and the largest group of complainers. it really is in their interests to balance skills according to the majority, but as a result they don't end up making the best decision for the game's balance, just the game's survival. a poor show IMO. you need giant balls to make unpopular changes in the face of a fickle populace, and Anet (perhaps sensibly) has none. survival at the cost of objectivity.

we see popular classes getting a lot of attention and thus end up functionally rich, while unpopular classes get very little attention, resulting in a class with less personality. feel free to dissect this to the point of disproving it, but if you're just going to whine you're wasting your fingertips.

Balance is generally decided by high-tier PvP. Sure, there might be an oddball change, but most of it is centered towards GvG/HA.

Theosephus · Mar 11, 2008, 12:40 AM // 00:40

Quote:

Balance is generally decided by high-tier PvP. Sure, there might be an oddball change, but most of it is centered towards GvG/HA.

Which is a shame considering the PvE aspect of GW is a large part of the game's appeal for at least half the people who play it. Better brains or better thinking might help bring about some skill-tweaking that serves PvE as well as it serves PvP. ..But then there's not as much fanaticism, dedicated gaming or money in PvE, is there?

LightningHell · Mar 11, 2008, 01:46 AM // 01:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theosephus

Which is a shame considering the PvE aspect of GW is a large part of the game's appeal for at least half the people who play it. Better brains or better thinking might help bring about some skill-tweaking that serves PvE as well as it serves PvP. ..But then there's not as much fanaticism, dedicated gaming or money in PvE, is there?

Most of the PvP community begs to differ, actually. There is much more money in PvE than there is in PvP, and most of the playerbase of Guild Wars is PvE-based; hence why for the past (nearly) two years the PvP community has been hollering for changes, and there had been relatively little response. If anything, there is more 'skill-tweaking' that serves PvE with the addition of PvE-only skills.

draxynnic · Mar 11, 2008, 02:55 AM // 02:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theosephus

we see popular classes getting a lot of attention and thus end up functionally rich, while unpopular classes get very little attention, resulting in a class with less personality. feel free to dissect this to the point of disproving it, but if you're just going to whine you're wasting your fingertips.

It's a common mistake I've seen with the balancing of other games. Things that are causing trouble get nerfed and things that are just a little behind the power curve (but close enough that people actually use it while complaining about how weak it is) get buffed, while things so weak that no-one ever looks at them get ignored.

That said, the recent balances that have involved major changes in a skill's functionality rather than simply tweaking the numbers may give some hope - it's possible that even Tease may become worthwhile through such a rebalancing in the next few months...

Theosephus · Mar 11, 2008, 03:15 AM // 03:15

Quote:

Most of the PvP community begs to differ, actually.

I think there is more potential cash money in PVP on account of the tournaments and guilds involved. Also, feedback from PvPers is more direct and more valuable than PvErs as the best test for skill balancing is up against equal opponents.

The problem I have is that PvP represents a small portion of the game experience yet some of the changes made to the classes are diminishing their playability in PvE for the sake of PvP balance.

PVP seems to me to be more lucrative in the long term (as campaigns have a finite storyline) and so it makes more sense to balance for PvP than PvE. It might be that i'm thinking along broader, long term lines and you aren't.

Avarre · Mar 11, 2008, 06:45 AM // 06:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theosephus

But then there's not as much fanaticism, dedicated gaming or money in PvE, is there?

There's more money for ANet from PvE. So, so much more money. This is why they focus more on PvE (an entire expansion purely geared to PvE, and very few PvP additions besides shaking up what's already there).

However, I think ANet knows that skill balances don't affect PvE, and therefore don't really care about taking it into consideration. This is because PvE is full of people that think taking 0 damage from a screen full of monsters and killing them all solo is fair and balanced, and they must be entitled to do it.

The fact that everything works in PvE debases the claim that ANet is making things unplayable, unless you relied on some sort of skill gimmick.

Quote:

PVP seems to me to be more lucrative in the long term (as campaigns have a finite storyline) and so it makes more sense to balance for PvP than PvE. It might be that i'm thinking along broader, long term lines and you aren't.

It's more that the objective of PvE is not balance, it's to just go through the story and have the players win. PvP is meant to be balanced for both sides, so that both have a chance to win. Monsters are just supposed to die and drop loot on the road to the ending.

DarkSpirit · Mar 11, 2008, 07:57 AM // 07:57

I think the mesmer class has become a "holder" secondary class for the other professions. We are extremely "generous" with our best skills, unlike the other classes that have most of their best skills in their class-specific attributes, mesmers have them in the unlinked forms.

Skills like Arcane Echo, Echo, Epidemic, Expel Hexes, Web of Disruption, Mirror of Disenchantment (essentially unlinked although in Domination line), are popular skills that do not benefit the PvE mesmer primary as much as the secondary.

The should make Arcane Mimicry scale with Fast Casting, so that it can last long enough to be useful.

the_jos · Mar 11, 2008, 12:02 PM // 12:02

Quote:

Which is a shame considering the PvE aspect of GW is a large part of the game's appeal for at least half the people who play it. Better brains or better thinking might help bring about some skill-tweaking that serves PvE as well as it serves PvP.

PvE does not 'suffer' as much from the changes as people make it appear.
Sure it makes some builds less useful and perhaps unplayable.
But there are dozens of others and you don't need a perfect build to succeed.
But, besides a few 'elite' areas and maybe some vanquish areas, PvE could be a walk in the park even in Hard Mode. Not even considering the usage of UB and other PvE skills.

Now I can think of changes that would probably not influence the PvP game too much.
But it's easier to nerf an overpowered skill(combination) then to buff a skill and compare it to the numerous skills that are in the game to find a potentially overpowered situation.

Theosephus · Mar 11, 2008, 06:58 PM // 18:58

For the record i'm not on either side of the argument, i just saw PvE getting the fallout from PvP skill tweaks and figured i'd find out what the heartbeat is.

From what I understand in the_jos' post, PvE is less important as far as skill balance is concerned, as there are plenty of builds out there and it's quite easy to fight monsters as opposed to other players.

The problem is that as a result of changes in PvP, certain classes may be seen as inferior for PvE and rejected from PUGs. This isn't to say that they truly are inferior, but the popular impression can spread like wildfire, resulting in reduced play, or even players rerolling or outright quitting. It's not a big problem as far as I see it, but it still needs some consideration. It is a factor in the popularity and longevity of this title, so my concerns were with what is being done and what can be done to help support as many styles of play as possible.

For PvP to survive, the skills have to be balanced and that in turn will affect PvE with exception to PvE-only skills. It seems like it's an unavoidable fact of the game. Still, I dislike seeing the Mesmer class rejected by so many folks who swallow wholesale any sensationalist whinery regarding class and skill viability.

DarkSpirit has a good point in that Fast Casting could be tied to some of the mesmer's abilities, making that class more viable in PvE, but I can see that wreaking havoc in PvP unless it's done step-by-step.

Sir Pandra Pierva · Mar 11, 2008, 09:38 PM // 21:38

one thing to say i find mes have no problem in PVE at any more using a theif build.'

i know its an soi gimmick but for general pve and hm stealing spells to use agaisnt my foes really does serv a great purpose. if we are fighting a monk now i have healing spells and heal like a monk fighting ss nec i take off hexes and turn it agaisnt the foes. etc i turn the tables of my enimies
and if there are no spells to steal then i am pretty mch just as well off wanding everyone and letting the rest do the work.

DarkSpirit · Mar 12, 2008, 04:04 AM // 04:04

The problem with PvE is, you are usually overwhelmed by numbers. Unlike PvP where you are guanranteed XvsX or 8vs8/4vs4, in PvE it can be common to have more monsters than players. This is when AoE attacks become important.

There are very few cookie-cutter roles and builds for the mesmer.

1) Energy Denial. This is very difficult to do effectively for more than 1 target, especially in PvE where monsters can have alot of energy.

2) Shutdown. Also very difficult to do effectively for more than 1 target. Bosses also have halved hex and condition duration in some campaigns. Some of them have skills that can also recharge faster and they can cast faster too.

3) Interrupts. And here, mesmers face tough competition from the Rangers, who have shorter recharge skills like savage shot that can interrupt and cause damage at the same time. And BHA for the ever popular dazed condition.

4) Tank. Can't tank as well as the warriors or dervishes.

5) Heal. Still can't out-heal the monks who have Divine Favor. Ritualist come second in this category for Restoration and Communning (protect). Paragons also offer better party-wide protection than mesmers.

6) Damage. Can't out-damage AoE attacks from the nukers or single target attacks from the warriors, dervishes, and assassins.

7) Minions. Can't beat the necros there for minion tanking and minion damage. Necros also have alot less energy issues, especially in PvE where things are dying almost all the time during battle.

8) Energy battries. Useful in supplying energy to the damage class (esp nukers), so they can kill faster or healers, so they can heal/protect better. Necros are the best here for their BiP and Blood Ritual.

There are very few well-known and useful roles a mesmer can fulfill in PvE. You can certainly create a viable PvE mesmer build, but you would be hard-pressed to define a useful role where the mesmer is the BEST choice for that role, in PvE.

draxynnic · Mar 12, 2008, 04:17 AM // 04:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

I think the mesmer class has become a "holder" secondary class for the other professions. We are extremely "generous" with our best skills, unlike the other classes that have most of their best skills in their class-specific attributes, mesmers have them in the unlinked forms.

Skills like Arcane Echo, Echo, Epidemic, Expel Hexes, Web of Disruption, Mirror of Disenchantment (essentially unlinked although in Domination line), are popular skills that do not benefit the PvE mesmer primary as much as the secondary.

The should make Arcane Mimicry scale with Fast Casting, so that it can last long enough to be useful.

In fact, it's one of my theories that apart from certain gimmick builds (SoI with 14+ Illusion, for instance) any 'pure' Mesmer build can be done as an Elementalist or Necromancer primary. Most Mesmer skills aren't really that sensitive to the attribute level (for interrupts, for instance, it's usually the interrupt that's important, the attribute-linked effect is a bonus), and both primaries give better energy management than today's Mesmer.

That those Necromancer and Elementalist primaries are still better off being, well, Necromancers and Elementalists in nearly all situations speaks volumes for the state of the Mesmer.

Ensign · Mar 12, 2008, 06:09 AM // 06:09

PvE 'balance', if there is such a thing, comes from the game's system being broken as hell, but the player base being rather poor at capitalizing upon it (for all the reasons you can list) - the notable exception is solo farming (for all the reasons you can list). PvP, as a competitive system, tends to pull out what works and propagate it much more quickly; a badly broken PvP system does not last long.

Hence, almost all balance updates are for PvP. Group PvE is broken beyond recognition but it limited by the difficulty of forming a competent group; solo PvE is broken beyond recognition but everyone who plays that way wants it to be and screams like hell if it's ever chaged. PvE balance just doesn't make any sense in this game.

Theosephus · Mar 12, 2008, 04:04 PM // 16:04

Ensign:

PvP balance = skill balancing

PvE balance = class balancing

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

You can certainly create a viable PvE mesmer build, but you would be hard-pressed to define a useful role where the mesmer is the BEST choice for that role, in PvE.

yes (QFT)

llsektorll · Mar 12, 2008, 04:08 PM // 16:08

playing a mesmer takes a very good understanding of the builds you are facing in pvp and the monsters you are fighting in pve. To play it right you need to plan ahead and fairly quick response time.

Unfortunatly some newbies are still learning the game mechanics much less trying to be proficient at mesmer.

Spaced Invader · Mar 12, 2008, 10:59 PM // 22:59

A.Net has already chosen the easy way out of PvE class balancing: Ursanway.

draxynnic · Mar 12, 2008, 11:24 PM // 23:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theosephus

Ensign:

PvP balance = skill balancing

PvE balance = class balancing

I think you've hit the nail on the head here. A single horribly broken skill isn't as bad for PvE as for PvP - but an underpowered profession is an issue.

Even with Ursanway, I've heard rumours of groups that have started only accepting Ursans of classes that synergise well with Ursan mechanics. Strangely enough, that doesn't include mesmers.