Curse

draxynnic · Feb 16, 2008, 11:20 AM // 11:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

What about Ritualists and Monks? Warriors and Dervishes?

Skill overlap is a part of all classes so that there is more flexbility in the builds you use.

The differences are that while the examples that you give fill similar roles, they are different enough in style and how they do things that they aren't overshadowing the other (although admittedly there are situations where one is more useful than the other).

Between the Ritualist and the Monk: Yes, they both heal and protect. However, the Monk does so right off the bat, while the Ritualist largely relies on a series of conditional modifiers and battlefield effects (ie spirits), but when they can take full advantage of those they can arguably become more valueble than the Monk in the drawn-out battle. While the Monk seems to be preferred, neither truly steps on the other to the extent that certain Necromancer skills step on the Mesmer - and besides, the Ritualist also gets nifty spirits to play with.

Between the Dervish and the Warrior: They're both melee fighters - but the Warrior largely deals with single targets while the Dervish deals with multiples. The Warrior does have skills to deal with multiple targets, but just doesn't has the multitarget engagement ability that most Dervish builds have. The Dervish can support the party by spreading around a variety of debilitating conditions such as Blind and Weakness, the Warrior does so by shouts... and each works in a different manner.

What it boils down to, however, is while the Dervish and Ritualist do seem to be less favoured than the Warrior and Monk respectfully, neither need help to the extent that the Mesmer does. When playing my Ritualist or my Dervish, very rarely do I despondently look at my build and think "yeah, this is all very well, but *insert profession combination here* can do the job much better." Nowadays, I tend to think that with pretty much every build I can put together with my Mesmer that isn't based off gimmick PvE skills... and most of those are just using SoI to barely get beyond the point someone who grinded all those points would get for free (apart from the time spent grinding...) regardless of primary profession. So... Monks, Warriors, Dervishes, and Ritualists don't need help. Mesmers do. And, frankly speaking, the Necromancer has so many things it can do - minion mastering, Orders, battery, condition spreading (note that in the closed thread the possibility of switching Epidemic and related skills the other way was raised - it's not ALL one-sided) that it can afford to lose SS and/or SV without becoming unviable.

With the Necromancer and the Mesmer: Consider Spiteful Spirit and Spoil Victor. Ignore that they've both been Necromancer skills for, if we include prerelease, years, and in the case of the former, ignore the name. Do they really look like Necromancer skills, or do they look more like Mesmer skills?

To put it another way: Backfire and Empathy are both bread-and-butter Mesmer skills that any Mesmer will acquire early on regardless of campaign. For most new Mesmer players (certainly for me, and for me, 'new' was in the alpha...) Empathy and Backfire are among the skills that set the tone of the profession. Doesn't it seem just a leetle counterintuitive that the best elites along these lines fall into a different profession's skillset? It's probably fairly obvious at this point that it does to me.

Now, moving things over in GW1 clearly isn't a reasonable option. But I do think this is something that ANet should at least think about for the sequel.

Clarissa F · Feb 16, 2008, 03:10 PM // 15:10

Well, the way they've been talking in interviews about GW2, PvP and PvE are going to be separate in a way that mods to skills in PvP won't affect PvE...which is the way it should be done. Each aspect of the game requires a different mindset, and it's ludicrous to have one affect the other so much.

Winterclaw · Feb 16, 2008, 03:18 PM // 15:18

The only problem with that is that Izzy who already has his hands full balancing one set of skills is now going to have to balance two sets.

LightningHell · Feb 16, 2008, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

The only problem with that is that Izzy who already has his hands full balancing one set of skills is now going to have to balance two sets.

Well, now he has to balance one skillset by two criteria for two communities that have different needs, so I'd venture to say balancing two sets with a single criteria and community for each would be easier.

Winterclaw · Feb 16, 2008, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Perhaps for simple changes. However balancing for two different groups could lead to its own problems.

Lishy · Feb 16, 2008, 08:25 PM // 20:25

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=8e_FR60LfFc
This is how mesmer should be improved.

Avarre · Feb 17, 2008, 12:16 AM // 00:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

The only problem with that is that Izzy who already has his hands full balancing one set of skills is now going to have to balance two sets.

I still feel that designing PvE in a similar fashion as PvP, with balanced enemy groups rather than just damage bots, then balancing all the skills together, would be more interesting and keep the playerbase closer together.

draxynnic · Feb 17, 2008, 03:26 AM // 03:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

I still feel that designing PvE in a similar fashion as PvP, with balanced enemy groups rather than just damage bots, then balancing all the skills together, would be more interesting and keep the playerbase closer together.

Agreed. Unfortunately, with the limitations in AI it's probably not going to happen for quite a while yet, but the ideal scenario would be, in a mixed environment of named NPC opponents and PC opponents, for it not to be obvious which is which.

Savio · Feb 17, 2008, 08:00 AM // 08:00

Nothing so complicated as human-like AI needs to be done; improving monster group skillsets and composition (and removing the "bigger numbers" updates) would do. But that would mean destroying the current incarnation of PvE, which a lot of players would dislike.

draxynnic · Feb 17, 2008, 12:44 PM // 12:44

Aye. At this point, I'm working more out of a hope that we can steer ANet away from repeating the same mistakes in GW2 rather than any real hope of this being fixed for GW1.

I really do hope they can fix it, though - of all the magic types the Mesmeric I'm-gonna-mess-with-your-mind is my favourite, and despite the Mesmer's current woes it's probably going to be my Mesmer that has the most to pass down. I'd like to see that be inherited by another Mesmer... and I'd like for that Mesmer not to feel like a second-class hero.

Lorumung San · Feb 18, 2008, 08:43 AM // 08:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

I still feel that designing PvE in a similar fashion as PvP, with balanced enemy groups rather than just damage bots, then balancing all the skills together, would be more interesting and keep the playerbase closer together.

Yeah, unfortunately this is the only way to go without changing the Mesmer's nature to be a rip-off ele, and most people would surely severely oppose it, as while Anet attempts to create them as equals, most of them are merely unskilled tank-nuke-heal (T.N.H.) characters who simply want to keep PVE simple and the only 'skill' they want to bother with is the 'climb the number mountain' 'skill' AKA spam more SFs than you can count, spam moar protective spiritz and wordz of healing so the tank doesn't get shredded by that aatxe who hits for 100+ damage un-buffed with 1150 health and 3 health regeneration, and 100 armor while the tank simply spams defy pain, endure pain, and any other health/armor increasing abilities desperately hoping the aatxe doesn't crit for 200+ damage, while spamming final thrust, and te sever artery-gash combo to chop it up while avoiding direct damage which is be reduced by the aatxe's 100 armor... yeah, like i said 'climbing the number mountain' is the only skill people in those situations want, as if the aatxe lost the impressive numbers for a full skill bar of working, logical abilities, that would make T.N.H. groups bring something that doesn't fit in this box AKA MESMERS (lol) interrupt rangers, etc, and thus would demand the players also lose the number-mountain for a more ability-based group.

Also, unfortunately, most people would probably seem to think that if this happened, the mobs would still have that 20,000 health and 300 damage vs casters, and would make PVE hopeless for casual gamers. The idea of making PVE 'PVP with AI' would vastly improve PVE for everyone, if anything. Since you no longer are restricted to that T.N.H triangle, and more open to mess-with-your-mind (mesmers) or break-the-link (interrupt/knockdown) characters. T.N.H. would still exist, but to make sure that PVE characters like elementalists wouldn't get a serious downgrade, mobs would only have a basic use of the abilities. I.E., mobs would have no idea what build you're running, so they'd bunch together as a side-effect of that lack of knowledge, keeping PVE fair for a AOE or PBAOE based character, but vastly diversifying PVE and giving mesmers more importance than just 3 missions with the requirement of 2 very basic abilities.

Shanaeri Rynale · Feb 19, 2008, 09:14 AM // 09:14

Of course Anet may just take the easy route and remove the mesmer as a class from GW2

It's already way too late to do anything re: improving PvE for Gw1, most good players know whats needed to be done(improve the mob builds and AI) but to do so would require a huge amount of effort.

I also feel what we have now is Anets attempt to keep things going for as long as possible while GW2 is made. So the state of the mesmer in PvE is an evolved stop gap not a defined direction Anet had from Day 1.

In short, IMHO there is no point making suggestions for improving the mesmers lot in PvE GW1. The window for that has closed.

Now, what I am not saying is that the mesmer is not a viable class in PvE. It's not the optimal class, but then again atm there are only 2 optimal classes in PvE now. The Ursan and the Monk.

What it does mean is that it requires more effort(and certainly more skill to play than an Ursan) to play and to do well. But for some thats the challenge, and therein the fun.

In Gw2, having the mesmer class would bring a huge amount of variety to gameplay and in terms of MMO's the mesmer is a fairly unique concept ( and i know i'm biased) but not having that class would be a huge loss.

What I would really want to see is PvE mobs with finite energy pools, balanced and synagised team builds and that act as realistically as possible. Some of the AI in FPS shooters is pretty close to how most people can play. Using FPS class AI in GW2 would be a major step forward as apart from breaking TNH it would prevent having to supercharge mobs. In addition random spawns of different styles of Mobs would also improve the mesmers lot in Gw2.

Where TNH shines is in predictability, Mob A always has xyz skills, Mob B is always there and moves that way etc. Where a mesmer shines is when things get into a furball, when you need shutdown and denial more than carpet bombing and I would hope that combat in GW2 is less predictable than GW1. It might make the farmers moan some, but for the rest of us having to fight mobs that act and are skilled in a realistic way, with the GW2 mesmer is IMHO worth waiting for.

Kattar · Feb 19, 2008, 12:48 PM // 12:48

The only problem I see with randomized mobs and skill bars, is that the mesmer will be limited by few skill slots. It's difficult to shut down all types of enemies (short of blackout, backfire, and empathy) with the 8 skill choices we have now. I love the idea of going out and killing mobs being fun again, but there seems to be a few issues with that, if they left the overall system like it is now.

I'm all for making the class I love the most more viable, but I just wonder if this can be done in such a way as to still make the mesmer wanted. Since if they give us more skill slots, everyone else will get them as well. More nuking, more healing, more tanking. Enemies have to be smarter as well, not just random. As suggested earlier, FPS AI would be a nice change. Although enemies running for cover and sneaking up behind me would be really aggrevating. Lol.

I really hope a complete redesign is in the works for Gw2. Not just the mesmer class, but the whole combat structure, since that seems like what it's going to take the revive the mesmer in PvE.

Lopezus · Feb 19, 2008, 02:00 PM // 14:00

Quote:

I love the idea of going out and killing mobs being fun again

hmm that depends .. my mesmer is probably pretty young to others people who commnted in this thread but i do still find killing mobs fun , yeah even with casting backfire , ineptitude and empathy , it's pretty fun to watch them kill themselves, not the fastest way , maybe not most efficient way but still fun, or norn tournament - that pretty fun to see how mesmer owns other classes.

Sir Pandra Pierva · Feb 19, 2008, 06:15 PM // 18:15

i have no problem playing mes in PVE. but getting in groups for pugway however is a little different even though i made a anti hex semi support build for fun

Shuuda · Feb 19, 2008, 06:34 PM // 18:34

Quote:

short of blackout, backfire, and empathy

Backfire and Empathy are not Shutdown skills in any way, in order for a skill to be shutdown it must do one (or more) of the following:

Energy denial (PLeak, Eburn/Surge, Shame)
Skill disabling (Diversion, Blackout, PLock, PBlock)
Prevent an Action (Interruptions, Shame)
Enchantment Stripping (Shatter, Drain) - unsure if it's actually Shutdown, but it plays an important role in weakening targets.

Simply doing damage when someone does something is not Shutdown, nor is it that effective in general.

Quote:

Of course Anet may just take the easy route and remove the mesmer as a class from GW2

Personally I rather see that, than A-net ruin my favorite proffession by "Making them better in PvE", not even my imagination can see to what extent A-net could screw Mesmers by doing that.

Kattar · Feb 19, 2008, 06:39 PM // 18:39

I wasn't necessarily talking about shutdown in the sense that you mean. I meant that those are the staple skills, the few "cover-alls," you can take with you wherever you go in PvE.

In PvE, shutdown is widely not worth it, since if the enemy is dead, that is the ultimate shutdown.

With that said, we're back to the AI/enemy design not being the greatest.

^imo^

Shuuda · Feb 19, 2008, 06:44 PM // 18:44

I find it horrible to see that lame skills like Backfire and Empathy are considered staple.

Kattar · Feb 19, 2008, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Me too, but that's the game right now. Dom and PvE wise anyway.

*waits for someone to argue*

Ask 95% of the population though and this is probably what you'll get.

Shuuda · Feb 19, 2008, 06:49 PM // 18:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katsumi Rikyu

Me too, but that's the game right now. Dom and PvE wise anyway.

*waits for someone to argue*

Ask 95% of the population though and this is probably what you'll get.

Naw, 95% would say either:

- SoI Ebon Assassin Spam, or whatever it's called.
- Ursan /puke /puke /puke
- Fast Caster Fire Nuker.