Curse

Yichi · Jul 20, 2007, 08:03 AM // 08:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by zling

since PvE is all about AoE, even in HM and if Anet does care about Mesmers they should give Mesmers a few tools to work in general PvE. more skills like Cry of Frustration that gives AoE interrupt or perhaps some sort of AoE diversion/Clumsiness or whatever, of course weaker than the original and not a huge AoE. and also boost up the Mesmer faction and sunspear skills, they're so underpowered compared to what other classes got.

those changes wont affect PvP too much as AoE isnt such a big factor(if at all) in it.

I know that I've used this in another thread recently, but you dont PvP much do you?

ainkami · Aug 02, 2007, 03:23 AM // 03:23

To: OP
Quite an informative post. I'm glad that you still to playing your mesmer because you like the class, Avarre. I think you more or less addressed the situation of Mesmer being incompatible in PVE very well.

However, I would like to point out that Nightfall actually increased mesmer's AOE output:
With the introduction of Scythe, and nightfall's ranger skill "Heket's Rampage", a Me/R can potentially do:
42dmg x 3 targets * 1.3333 attack speed increase / 1.75 scythe weapon delay = 96 dmg per sec over 3 targets which does not cause mob scatter.
With the casting of illusion of pain, you can increase the damage output by another 20dmg/sec per casting. so 116 - 136 dmg/sec over 3 mobs under perfect conditions

Nevertheless, the damage is still far less than an aoe ele or an necro. Anet supplies all accounts with atleast 4 characters slots, so you can always play your other 3 chars.

Avarre · Aug 02, 2007, 09:52 AM // 09:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by ainkami

To: OP
Quite an informative post. I'm glad that you still to playing your mesmer because you like the class, Avarre. I think you more or less addressed the situation of Mesmer being incompatible in PVE very well.

However, I would like to point out that Nightfall actually increased mesmer's AOE output:
With the introduction of Scythe, and nightfall's ranger skill "Heket's Rampage", a Me/R can potentially do:
42dmg x 3 targets * 1.3333 attack speed increase / 1.75 scythe weapon delay = 96 dmg per sec over 3 targets which does not cause mob scatter.
With the casting of illusion of pain, you can increase the damage output by another 20dmg/sec per casting. so 116 - 136 dmg/sec over 3 mobs under perfect conditions

Nevertheless, the damage is still far less than an aoe ele or an necro. Anet supplies all accounts with atleast 4 characters slots, so you can always play your other 3 chars.

The problem with that is that most monsters hit back much harder than that, and turn Mesmers into chalk outlines at melee range.

As for the characters slots... the reason I made my necro was because I couldn't get groups for FoW

runeseeker1 · Aug 02, 2007, 03:30 PM // 15:30

As someone else in this thread said, the problem with Mesmers is the fact that other classes have certain skills that are definately Mesmer-like. Strangely, these skills also happen to make those classes more sought after.

Spiteful Spirit is an elite AoE empathy that takes effect not only on attacks, but on skills in general.
Spoil Victor is an elite backfire/empathy that is more conditional, but also takes effect on most skills.
Maelstrom is an AoE spell that interrupts foes casting spells when it hits.
Most of the Necro Curses line can be compared to the Mesmer Illusion line. Some spells, like Mark of Subversion and Soul Leech, are "Necro-fied" versions of Mesmer skills (See Shame or Guilt and Backfire).

I see something wrong with the way Anet has managed the Necromancer's Curses line. Most of them have more damage output or degen, or just plain usefulness than Mesmer skills do (there are more degen skills in the Curses line than in the Illusion line; see spells like Faintheartedness and Parasitic Bond).
They also have more energy degeneration than the Mesmers do (correct me on this, but I think Wither and Malaise have more energy degen than Ether Phantom and Panic). Some people even say that Necros have more anti-melee than Mesmers! This can't be right! Mesmers are supposed to be THE shutdown class of Guild Wars and NO other class is supposed to shut down ANYTHING better than the Mesmer can. Hell, even Paragons can be shut down better by Necros than by Mesmers (see Well of Silence, Vocal Minority, Ulcerous Lungs). All Mesmers can do is interrupt, divert, etc. But Necros can add all sorts of things like conditions and even prevent them altogether.

ainkami · Aug 02, 2007, 05:15 PM // 17:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

The problem with that is that most monsters hit back much harder than that, and turn Mesmers into chalk outlines at melee range.

As for the characters slots... the reason I made my necro was because I couldn't get groups for FoW

lol, times have certainly changed. I remember when Avarre was one of the staunchy supporters of Mesmers, and said things along the lines of "mesmer is a great addition to any group" and "mesmers can do anything". How disappointing to see another person give up their mesmer and go necro.

For those who don't know FoW, Avarre is making it sound like mesmers can't ever get a group. FoW (forgemaster run) isn't that hard. It is doable with 4-5man easily. You can either
-grab friends and guildies. They won't care if you are a mesmer.
-form a group yourself with your mesmer as leader and do PUG
-grab a friend/guildie and have him be the leader and recruit 6 others PUGs. makes recruiting much easier.

Just out of curiosity, why are you still doing FoW, Avarre? Are you still trying to get FoW armor? Farming for shards is slow. Usually it is much faster to solo farm Ectos and then trade for shards. But then again, there is even another faster method. Some of the people that I take on forgemaster runs don't even know the quest, but they are getting the armor. Isn't capitalism great?

We'll be getting guild wars 2 next year. Maybe anet will fix the mesmer situation by then?

Avarre · Aug 03, 2007, 05:21 AM // 05:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by ainkami

lol, times have certainly changed. I remember when Avarre was one of the staunchy supporters of Mesmers, and said things along the lines of "mesmer is a great addition to any group" and "mesmers can do anything". How disappointing to see another person give up their mesmer and go necro.

For those who don't know FoW, Avarre is making it sound like mesmers can't ever get a group.

For the record, I made my necro to get FoW/UW pug groups back in 2005, where I finished my mesmer FoW armor (and did stuff like the 3-man FoW clearance and such).

I went back to Mesmer after that, when I started forming my own 4-6 man FoW groups or went with guildies. However, like you said, times have changed, and the entire point of my OP is that Mesmers aren't evolving in the same direction as the objectives of PvE. Whether you can get groups or not.

Chyvaelry · Aug 05, 2007, 05:49 AM // 05:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by BSSuperman

Think Inspiration. Why the hell doesnt the Mesmer have Inspirational skills that help their team-mates?...Those damage reducing stances that give an energy return...Why can't the Mesmers give that to their team-mates?...Imagaine how much people would want a Mesmer in their group if they could maintain Inspirational enchantements that reduced damage or nullified burning etc.?

IMO the mesmer as a class was meant to be like a Bard (See: oldschool AD&D) An entertainer that was a kind of Jack of all Trades and master of none. The Paragon class stole what I would think of as Inspiration abilities (shouts and chants) if ANet was interested in pursuing this avenue of development it would make the Humble mesmer far more sought after than they currently are in PVE.

freaky naughty · Feb 12, 2008, 01:20 AM // 01:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chyvaelry

IMO the mesmer as a class was meant to be like a Bard (See: oldschool AD&D) An entertainer that was a kind of Jack of all Trades and master of none. The Paragon class stole what I would think of as Inspiration abilities (shouts and chants) if ANet was interested in pursuing this avenue of development it would make the Humble mesmer far more sought after than they currently are in PVE.

Yeah, because every group I've ever seen doesn't leave Shing Jea without a paragon. (end sarcasm)

LightningHell · Feb 12, 2008, 02:56 AM // 02:56

And that's obviously surprising since you can make Paragons in Factions...?

Anyway, thread necromancy. Closed until somebody PMs with a valid reason for reopen.

LightningHell · Feb 14, 2008, 05:00 AM // 05:00

I am epic fail and didn't open this thread after closing the other.

Terra Xin · Feb 14, 2008, 10:52 AM // 10:52

So... 6 Months down the track and we're pretty much still in the same boat. Hard Mode didn't save us and GW:EN somehow made it more difficult. E-denial and shutdown is still useless in PvE and we still have a whole list of useless skills. Not much progress as far as I can see.

Draiyne Valure · Feb 14, 2008, 11:01 AM // 11:01

Just wondering, how did GW:EN make it more difficult? I found it no harder or easier than the other campaigns.

But yes, otherwise, I agree. I think the implementation of Hard Mode was a step in the wrong direction, and a great many skills are stuck on the junk heap. At least Cry of Pain was a welcome addition, if a little bit cheap.

Abedeus · Feb 14, 2008, 11:07 AM // 11:07

Because instead of using hexes, people want even Mesmers to use ursans. Mesmer hexes are useless in pve in ursanways or other groups.

Sir Pandra Pierva · Feb 14, 2008, 10:45 PM // 22:45

echo archane echo clumsy was something i saw a Vanq group calling for

draxynnic · Feb 15, 2008, 12:33 PM // 12:33

You know... that's actually not a bad idea. Getting the mobs to miss on three attacks out of every ten seconds would take a bit of pressure off the monks...

...as well as doing a bit of armour-ignoring damage, of course.

Energy intensive, though - it's costing 45 energy in the first ten seconds and 30 in the next from Clumsiness alone.

LightningHell · Feb 15, 2008, 01:09 PM // 13:09

To revive discussion from the other thread. Mind you, I just picked random posts and found excerpts that I vaguely feel like commenting on.

Quote:

Personally, I would distinguish the hexes according to the following rules:

As said by Avarre, seperating ability according to lore isn't a very good thing to do when balance says otherwise.

Also, Mesmer and Necromancer hexes are at least moderately clear cut; Mesmer spells are generally about skill shutdown and limiting opponent choices, as well as perhaps restricting movement. Necromancer hexes are debilitating hexes. They have different roles, no matter how similar their purpose in the game may be.

Quote:

Actually, in my experience, singe target shutdown is darned useful in PvE. Talk of huge mobs in PvE aside, in my own experience, unless you overaggro, nine times out of ten there are more toons on your side then there are monsters. This is even more likely if you're including pets, minions and summons into the mix.

However, tell me, is shutdown still more important than doing damage, when in small packs? Because the time you spend casting to shut a foe down is pretty much about the same as a Warrior beating their face in. Exceptions are certainly there, but are they frequent enough that it's worth it to bring a Mesmer, a pretty niche character in the PvE crowd?

Quote:

Originally Posted by OP

Finally, I feel one skill must be totally reworked and moved to the Mesmer Domination Line. This is Price of Failure. Again, the effect is inherit to a Mesmer, not a Necromancer. Target foe has a 10-15% chance to miss in combat. Whenever target foe fails to hit in combat, you steal one energy from that foe.

They already have that. It's called Spirit of Failure.

Huntsman · Feb 15, 2008, 08:55 PM // 20:55

I've played this game for over two years now and my favorite character is my Mesmer. The reduction of Spiritual Pain was very painful in my opinion, but I know there were PVP reasons behind it.

Most recently it is important to note the increase in both Empathy and Energy Surge. These skills are extremely powerful especially in HM. I believe Empathy is now up to 57 damage with Dom 16.

The skill Cry of Pain in Nightfall also has satified my problems with the changes made to Spiritual Pain. More noteably, the GW:EN Reputation skills make the mesmer a very powerful PvE player.

draxynnic · Feb 16, 2008, 05:07 AM // 05:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

To revive discussion from the other thread. Mind you, I just picked random posts and found excerpts that I vaguely feel like commenting on.

Since two of those look like mine, I feel the need to exercise the right of reply:

Quote:

As said by Avarre, seperating ability according to lore isn't a very good thing to do when balance says otherwise.

Also, Mesmer and Necromancer hexes are at least moderately clear cut; Mesmer spells are generally about skill shutdown and limiting opponent choices, as well as perhaps restricting movement. Necromancer hexes are debilitating hexes. They have different roles, no matter how similar their purpose in the game may be.

The problem is that a lot of the hexes for limiting or controlling the opponent's options are in Necromancer lines - and there's a good argument that the Necromancer's ability in this realm is better than the Mesmer's. The flagship examples here are SS and SV, but there's also Wail of Doom which is put out of the Mesmer's reach by being tied to Soul Reaping. It probably says a lot that I'd probably never use WoD on a Necro (there are so many better elites in the Necro line) while if it was a Mesmer elite I probably would use it.

Ultimately, I feel, and it seems I'm not alone in this, that the Mesmer suffers from an overlap in Mesmer and Necromancer capabilities which largely favours the latter. Setting a better defined distinction between their capabilities for GW2 may go a long way towards keeping the PvE Mesmer from being a second-class citizen there as well.

Quote:

However, tell me, is shutdown still more important than doing damage, when in small packs? Because the time you spend casting to shut a foe down is pretty much about the same as a Warrior beating their face in. Exceptions are certainly there, but are they frequent enough that it's worth it to bring a Mesmer, a pretty niche character in the PvE crowd?

This is a point I'd already conceded in the thread in question... or maybe some other thread, I can't remember

. However, what makes things worse for the Mesmer is that it simply isn't the best at shutting down a single target anyway, when compared to the likes of broadhead rangers, ebon dust aura users, elementalist blindbots and Brawling Headbutt warriors. It just adds insult to injury when many of those builds can dip into Mesmer to spread their shutdown throughout a tightly-packed mob via Epidemic.

Avarre · Feb 16, 2008, 06:51 AM // 06:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Ultimately, I feel, and it seems I'm not alone in this, that the Mesmer suffers from an overlap in Mesmer and Necromancer capabilities which largely favours the latter. Setting a better defined distinction between their capabilities for GW2 may go a long way towards keeping the PvE Mesmer from being a second-class citizen there as well.

What about Ritualists and Monks? Warriors and Dervishes?

Skill overlap is a part of all classes so that there is more flexbility in the builds you use.

LightningHell · Feb 16, 2008, 06:59 AM // 06:59

My opinion is that the 'hex usage overlap' as you're calling it is pretty nonexistent in terms of actual hex usage overlap. However, what I believe you're pointing to is the ineffectiveness of Mesmer shutdown effects compared to Necromancer shutdown effects in PvE. I'd agree with that. However, by 'changing' it, as you say, by moving some Necromancer hexes to the Mesmer side, you're actually creating more overlap between the Mesmer and the Necromancer.

I'd agree in that Mesmer shutdown isn't very effective in PvE.