Curse

glountz · May 31, 2007, 09:50 AM // 09:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

The next person who talks about buffing hexes gets punched in the face. Seriously, I still have nightmares about the hex meta. Yes, the illusion line does need some improvements but the method for this has to be in recreating PvE - the issue I explored in my OP.

Sorry, but Illusion hexes, especially the illu TA degen team, never were a so prominent build. In HA or GvG, the real masters of hexes are necros. Not Illu mesmers. Even if you seek degen, you'd better go Necro/Mes with illu secondary than Mesm primary, thanks to SR.
And IMO, domination quite do everything a mesmer needs. The way the attributes are designed, any other mesmer than a Dom/X one is a useless gimmick.
Illu was designed to hamper warriors, but sadly it does it a lot less effectively than a necro. If only Illu slowing/degen hexes were less expensive, or longer, or with a shorter recharge, people would start to take them instead of an hydromancer. Deep Freeze, even at 0 attribute, is still better than the Elite Shared burden.
So yes, Illu magic is underpowered. You can't do anything without Mantra of persistence.
That's my opinion and I don't ask you to share it.

NeilGarra · May 31, 2007, 09:27 PM // 21:27

<<baz777 said: I’ve only had my Mesmer, (Nightfall character), for 6 weeks so I’m unable to express an opinion with regards to previous skill ‘balances’ over the past 2 years. ... At 48 I only hope I’m not too old to make a decent Mesmer! >>

As a 50+ guy, I certainly enjoy the optimism of youth!

I've had my Mesmer for 5 days... the LAST GW profession for which I've created a character. I seldom play PvP, except to 'befriend kurziks / luxons'. However, I was inspired to created a Dervish when my favorite Assassin was unable to kill a Derv, and was recently inspired to create a Mesmer when a Mez demolished my Derv.

This is a VERY interesting and complex profession! There are few published builds compared to the other professions, so I'm having a blast building and testing. So far, my Mez breezing through both Factions and NF using an AoE condition-spamming build based on elite 'Fevered Dreams', with just one or two interrupts. This should carry me to the really tough bosses, when I'll probably need to go more degen & interrupt. And despite his Siegfried & Roy armor, he is not shunned by PUGs the way my Assassin was.

I'm still too new at this to have any strong opinions or preferences, but it seems that the attribute categories and their assigned skills were developed by a real-life Mesmer: trying to make sense of them is causing energy loss, cognitive degeneration, and interrupted sleep.

Jeremy Winston · Jun 01, 2007, 01:59 AM // 01:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

find this somewhat against the ethos of Guild Wars even further - using skills to govern aggro rather than positioning, kiting, and 'player skill'. Specific skills to hold aggro would just further one-dimensionalize PvE, and let's be honest - there was a reason the desert missions were structured like HoH objectives - to teach basic concepts for PvP. PvE should promote the same concepts as PvP, such as character positioning and kiting. You can split the two games and their mechanics entirely, but that only shows an absolute breakdown of balance. Keeping the same mechanics allows players to easier cross over between the two and maintain the influx of players to PvP - the restriction of which is a major issue.

I'm afraid I have to disagree. While one of the original purposes of PvE might very well have been training for PvP, the fact that they are talking about PvE-only skills means that those skills would be unbalance or useless for PvP.

Your desire to re-invent PvE just isn't going to happen. You'd have to retool all three campaigns. It's just not happening.

And, my aggro-control notion was not a lock. It would provide percentages. It would make the mob x% more or less likely to do something. This is what a Mesmer is supposed to do. Control. Reshape perceived reality. Mesmers are the ECM of Guild Wars, or they are supposed to be. Ok, so these skills are useless against real humans who can see what's going on. That's why they're perfect for PvE only.

Finally, various aggro-control techniques already exist to take advantage of the faulty AI. How many of you ever bring Chaos Storm simply to force a group to break aggro occasionally? I certainly did, especially before I had souped up SF heros working for me. Today, warriors overextend to grab 90+% aggro while the rest of the team comes in late and owns them. This is OK with your concept of GW ethos, but making the mobs smarter and placing less-powerful aggro skills in the hands of the mesmer isn't?

Jeremy

=DNC=Trucker · Jun 01, 2007, 02:45 AM // 02:45

Why are we trying to make PvE like PvP? (or vice-versa) I don't understand something here. Why are we trying to 'bridge' them? I LIKE having two completely separate play styles. It allows to hit a greater audience, along with offering a variety for players like me who do both.

frojack · Jun 01, 2007, 09:58 AM // 09:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by =DNC=Trucker

Why are we trying to make PvE like PvP? (or vice-versa) I don't understand something here. Why are we trying to 'bridge' them? I LIKE having two completely separate play styles. It allows to hit a greater audience, along with offering a variety for players like me who do both.

Why? Because in one of these areas, mesmers, a major class in the game, aren't all that useful. Whichever way you look at it, that's how it is.
I appreciate that you like pve as it is, but for myself (and I imagine others) PvE is far too simple. It is repetitive, dull, and unnecessarily 'dumbed down'.

To the poster above this one; You are right. Anet will not be changing mobs to increase intelligence (evident by the poorly conceived hard mode). They probably think most of the casual market just can't handle it, which is a shame (never underestimate your fan base).
What Avarre and others have alluded to is more than just a 'desire' for pve re-invention, it is a realisation that this is the only way to make a character such as the Mesmer 'matter' without relying upon arbitrary mechanics such as the ones you propose to 'patch up' the situation. It is the only way to stay within the 'rules' of the GW environment. When you start bending the rules, you start to compromise integrity.

Band-aid methods suck. In my opinion PvE was a missed opportunity to actually implement much of the unique complexity that exists within the combat system of Guild Wars. The mesmer is the highest representative of this. Yet they more or less suck in PvE. I'd go as far as to call this a failure...

Avarre · Jun 08, 2007, 03:28 PM // 15:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeremy Winston

I'm afraid I have to disagree. While one of the original purposes of PvE might very well have been training for PvP, the fact that they are talking about PvE-only skills means that those skills would be unbalance or useless for PvP.

Which is why I think those skills are ridiculous; for there to be a requirement for 'special' skills, these would have to surpass the current skills. Making a certain set of skills by nature more powerful is not a good thing - PvE skills in NF reduced the typical skillbar choice from 8 to 7 as everyone used LB gaze in later areas - simply because of its effectiveness. Skills that are statistically and by application better than other skills to such an extent that they have to have restrictions placed on them cause problems in that they work towards invalidating the multitude of existing skills that are balanced to a non-restrictive level - by making them unneccesary in comparison.

Quote:

Your desire to re-invent PvE just isn't going to happen. You'd have to retool all three campaigns. It's just not happening.

Of course its not going to happen, nobody said ArenaNet was good in their handling of their game.

Quote:

How many of you ever bring Chaos Storm simply to force a group to break aggro occasionally? I certainly did, especially before I had souped up SF heros working for me. Today, warriors overextend to grab 90+% aggro while the rest of the team comes in late and owns them. This is OK with your concept of GW ethos, but making the mobs smarter and placing less-powerful aggro skills in the hands of the mesmer isn't?

You mean using player positioning rather than hard skills to achieve an effect? Skill over skill? If that's what you're saying, then yes, that is my view of what is ok. Yes, the current method of taking aggro is ridiculous, but so is the capacity for enemy damage that makes it such a necessity to many teams. Given the choice, I would vastly prefer the AI was abused by positioning and the actions of players than by skills used on the skillbar; although a situation where no abuse was needed would be best. Note that the situations where mechanic abuses are least intended to exist are PvP because it is meant to be a contest of play on even grounds - and by making GW mobs so inherently more powerful, abuse becomes the balancing factor, unlike PvP. If you really want to remove AI abuse, you have to make the AI more like a player - and this involves making PvE more like PvP in terms of mob design.

And yes, I still take chaos storm when henching Hard Mode. I don't know if you consider it aggro 'abuse' that enemies move from static AoE, but it's certainly what human players do as well; given the choice of dealing more damage or preventing damage to themselves - not to mention ranged mobs simply stand in it anyway. You cannot even begin to compare that situation to having aggro binding skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by =DNC=Trucker

It allows to hit a greater audience, along with offering a variety for players like me who do both.

The game had PvE and PvP already, a greater audience won't necessarily be reached by changing the nature of the two. My personal opinion is that making GW PvE more one-dimensional opens it to far more competition from other MMO games (WoW) and removes a great deal of the uniqueness of the game. Whether you agree with that or not, splitting the game adds more barriers to the entry of a player from one to the other - effectively reducing the content of the game from the perspective of a player that only plays one type.

Quote:

Originally Posted by frojack

Band-aid methods suck. In my opinion PvE was a missed opportunity to actually implement much of the unique complexity that exists within the combat system of Guild Wars. The mesmer is the highest representative of this. Yet they more or less suck in PvE. I'd go as far as to call this a failure...

Precisely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

In HA or GvG, the real masters of hexes are necros.

I seriously doubt necro hexes would be quite as dangerous without the fact that they tend to be 'covered' with mesmer pressure on your removal. Two things make hex teams powerful - the ability to rapidly spread long duration hexes to provide a strong passive effect (and creating a situation that hex removal, which is single target, cannot keep up), and the ability to reduce enemy effectiveness to a point they cannot effectively counter your offence, in terms of your melee or the hexes themselves (migrane and such).

Increasing either of these abilities causes hex teams to be magnified - the large meta shift was caused by the former, where necro hexes became much easier to apply (reaper's mark, smaller cast times, etc). Your proposal is along the same line - to allow Mesmers to rapidly apply hexes to more targets.

LouAl · Jun 08, 2007, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

There was aggro control before, in the form of carried items - which were not only unneccesary, but promoted poor positioning and to be honest, could be quite boring (I fell asleep in FoW several times, while just following the tank around blindly, back in the book days). I guess that's an issue to discuss.

haha, I used to fall asleep all the time during Furnace runs. Aggro-control skills would be BAD.

Oh yeah, and PvE only skills are stupid. They are a band-aid for "Let's make the mobs really hard...hmm, they are REALLY hard. Let's give players an easy way to kill them...[brushes off hands] there we go! All fixed!"

I was really looking forward to (blind hope) the changes that HM would bring to the game. It was such a perfect opportunity for mesmers to again become worthwhile in PvE, but instead we got monsters on steroids, crack, and meth. I still like HM, and I still find it more fun that regular mode, but I am afraid that my mesmer has essentially been reduced to mule status...oh well, at least I'll get another birthday present here in the next few weeks.

Unfortunately, the real problem is not one that will be fixed, and that is sad. It is not something that can be done with skill changes or changes to the primary attributes. It is a problem with perception. Sorry Obi Lou Kenobi, I guess the force was not with you enough

Sophitia Leafblade · Jun 11, 2007, 10:32 AM // 10:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

Or, give Fast casting a 3% casting increase and a 3% recharge increase, and then increase recharge on Insp e-management spells, so they would be really worth taking for the mesmers.

I suggested the same thing somewhere, i totally agree, it would make the mesmer primary much more desirable (makingly the class itself much more desirable) It would give mesmers there chance for better energy maintainence that they could really do with. And it woudl make those nasty recharges on skills drop to make the skills much more usful on larger numbers of creatures which is the only real problem with mesmers, their lack of AoE (except Chaos storm.)

Rhys · Jun 13, 2007, 05:09 AM // 05:09

I wholeheartedly agree on decreasing recharge with increasing FC. One of the mesmers biggest problems, IMHO, is their skills' recharge times. FC is useless for interrupting due to their inherent low cast, it's really a matter with the recharge times.

I don't see how it can be overpowered either (at perhaps 2% per rank), as you'd need to spend quite a few points in FC to see a noticeable improvement along with your other skill tree(s).

It won't happen though. :P

Cherrie · Jun 13, 2007, 09:42 AM // 09:42

Very, VERY well said, why I came across this article only now?
It puts into words my exact thoughts: recently I came back to GW to try the HM (quit before it was introduced) and I'm usually doing Guardian tracs and and visiting DoA (NM) with my guildmates... The contrast is extremly hight. In Prophecies HM my Mesmer rocks, Eles wont even start casting their showers and mobs already have 1/2 health, but... thats it. Mobs in Doa have suo much health, taht even if I cast backfire on a spamming caster w/o monk around (sorcs f/e), it might end w/o killing it. Same goes for melee and Empathy. Oh great. E-Surge, even echoed? Not likely, poor dmg, 10e loss doesnt affect much any mob there... Even LG chained in 3 is not half as effective as SF + Meteor Shower. I was only getting useful when mobs runned pass the tank or one or two escaped and we had to shut them down... I love my mesmer and I wanna go DoA.... guess I'll have to make an Elem....

As I once said, big mobs of sick lvl + sick monster skills + sick enviromental effects are A-Net's new idea for challenge. It's simple, but its stupid.

Skycluster · Jun 14, 2007, 02:06 AM // 02:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhys

I wholeheartedly agree on decreasing recharge with increasing FC. One of the mesmers biggest problems, IMHO, is their skills' recharge times. FC is useless for interrupting due to their inherent low cast, it's really a matter with the recharge times.

I don't see how it can be overpowered either (at perhaps 2% per rank), as you'd need to spend quite a few points in FC to see a noticeable improvement along with your other skill tree(s).

It won't happen though. :P

This idea would be really overpowered, I mean MoR is already a really good skill, imagine MoR+that 24% recharge, there would be no end to spamming skills. They would have to nerf many of the recharge skills (serpents, MoR, most of the mesmers recharge skills). If it were implemented I find it would be unfair. They would have to change many recharge times of mesmer skills. I really wouldn't want this , it would (Imo) be too complicated. But as Rhys said it won't happen...

Angel Killuminati · Jun 19, 2007, 10:48 AM // 10:48

Yeah they need similar nuking style or multiple shutdown. Concentrating on one enemy in PvE doesn't really work unless it's a boss of somesort.

The new Mesmer Luxon/Kurzick spell Ether Nightmare is fairly decent for AoE degen.

Target foe loses 4...7 energy. For each point of energy lost this way, that foe and all foes in the area suffer -1 health degeneration for 10 seconds

On only 3 in allegiance rank this gives -5 degen for 10 seconds for a whole group of enemies. Which is the same as multiple castings of Conjure Phantasm. They changed the recharge this morning to 15 seconds as well which is fairly decent with high 'Fast Casting.' Good new spell for PvE Mesmers imo.

But again Necromancers can compete with AoE degen. Well of Suffering lasts a lot longer, and with a few simple runes can achieve -6 degen for roughly 30 seconds!

It seems that with the mesmer class atm other classes just seem to do things slightly better. From my own experiences anyway.

LouAl · Jun 19, 2007, 09:22 PM // 21:22

Ether Nightmare doesn't really look all that good...Searing Flames does all but the -energy better anyway (-7 from burning + damage) or you can just use Mark of Rodgort and any number of fire damage spells or weapons, 15 energy for about 35 seconds worth of burning (on top of the damage)...

And seriously, what is 4...7 energy to a HM monster anyway (or even a NM one)?

Angel Killuminati · Jun 20, 2007, 12:19 PM // 12:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by LouAl

ESearing Flames does all but the -energy better anyway (-7 from burning + damage) or you can just use Mark of Rodgort and any number of fire damage spells or weapons, 15 energy for about 35 seconds worth of burning (on top of the damage)...

Searing Flames just had a little nerf to the damage today. It's all good.

Enix · Jun 21, 2007, 03:03 AM // 03:03

I think the real quesiton is:
How do you make Mesmers USEFUL in PvE without making them OVERPOWERED in PvP? Here are 3 fixes to make Mesmers USEFUL in PvE, without destroying the PvP metagame.

Here is how I propose:
1 - Make Fastcasting a more useful primary line by having FC reduce the energy cost of spells (similar to Expertise for Rangers), and shorten their recharge time. Almost every other skill line makes each class more effective at it's primary role AND secondary roles, except for FC. Faster casting time of spells from professions other than Mesmer bare little impact on their effectiveness. Paras can use warrior shouts, Rits can be Minion Bombers, Eles can spam heal party, Rangers can be Touch Rangers or Bunny Thumpers. Changing FC to reduce spell cost would also offset the energy reaping nurfs that were introduced to stop the ubiquitous Mantra/Contemplation Prot Monks.Mesmer primaries wouldnt be able to do anything MORE effectivly than other primaries for PvP, though they could fill some rolls such as flag runner/Heal party spammer, that is now taken by some eles in GvG. There is no valid argument against this fix, as there are already professions whose primary attributes serve skills for their secondary profession in PvP. Currently, investing in FC does nothing to help you do more anything besides interrupt (which remains a poor alternitive)... which leads me to my next point.

2 - Fix the ways spells interrupt spells - it is pointless to let an interrupt spell cast if there is nothing for it to interrupt, charging you the energy and having no damamge or energy loss effect. Should the most effective interrupters only be the ones with high ping (or NPCs)? HELL NO! Other skills wont cast without a target. Interrrupt skills shouldnt cast without a spell/skill to interrupt!

3 - Perhaps the best fixes for PvE... Mesmers should be just as effective vs level 30 monster mobs as they are vurses 2 or 3 level 20s. Just as Monk Prot skills are often based on Total health damage reduction, base Mesmer "damage" skills (clumsiness, power spike, power surge) on TOTAL HEALTH and have a small but important area of effect, and degen skills should be area of effect as well. In PvP, you could just remove the hex or not stand so close to your hexed friend to counter. Necros already have very effective AoE degen, why should the Mesmer not be on-par, or even better than the necro??? Mesmers would be POWERFUL teammates for PvE if you could take off 1/5th of a group of level 30 monsters' health (roughly 100 damage vs a single PvP char as it is now). For PvP, damage spikes based on health could be countered just as other spike teams have been in the past, or other classes such as rangers or more mesmers could be used to shut down spike teams.

There is room for DRASTIC improvement to the Mesmer, without ruining PvP.

Side Notes on the "New" PvE skills - The Kurz/Lux Energy Degen skill dosent mean crap for PvE. Fights dont last that long to matter. The Sunspear Mesmer interrupt is nice... for my Ne/Me to use when I SS. Still dosent help Primary Mesmers at ALL.

Seriously, ANET, call me.

Abedeus · Jun 23, 2007, 06:19 PM // 18:19

I guess that A.Net doesn't care about mesmers being effective in PvE... I think that Im the only member (not couting offs - there are 6 of them and use uses this class, and there are 35 members) using a pve Mesmer in my guild. I just like that class, because mobs are even more stupid than players in RA. But still, domination is energy-extensive, illusion ineffective (the only mob that doesn't die after 10 seconds is boss), and the only useful thing in PvE is Fast Casting, with Fire Magic. But anyway, I think that mesmers should be useful without secondaries, just like warriors, monks or elementalists.

Themis · Jul 12, 2007, 08:02 AM // 08:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

...
I have some suggestions:
First it would be to move every e-management spells from Insp to Fast casting. Or to put a inherent fast casting e-management. Or, give Fast casting a 3% casting increase and a 3% recharge increase, and then increase recharge on Insp e-management spells, so they would be really worth taking for the mesmers.
Secondly it would be to keep domination for disrupting and interrupts only. Mesmer interrupts HAVE to have better recharge and decreased energy costs. Disruption, if not followed by damage, should be extremely cheap and fast-recharging.
Illu should be deserved for damage. Degen is not enough. Many degen skills should have powerful effects. Conjure phantasm should be cheaper, an apply poison ranger do a lot better than a conjure phantasm spammer. Conjure Nightmare should deal severe damage if removed. Damage from degen spells like Image of remorse or accumulated pain.
Empathy and Spiritual Pain should be moved to Illusion
I don’t know exactly what’s the best solution to bring back mesmers to PvE while letting PvP unharmed.

These are really great suggestions, imo.

I prefer the 3% recharge on fast casting combined with a recharge increase on inspiration spells.

Dodo The Extinct · Jul 12, 2007, 03:19 PM // 15:19

Quote:

2 - Fix the ways spells interrupt spells - it is pointless to let an interrupt spell cast if there is nothing for it to interrupt, charging you the energy and having no damamge or energy loss effect. Should the most effective interrupters only be the ones with high ping (or NPCs)? HELL NO! Other skills wont cast without a target. Interrrupt skills shouldnt cast without a spell/skill to interrupt!

I could see people hitting the "Power Leak" button over and over just to wait until a monk casts anything. This way, it would be very easy to catch anything, and it would require no skill to completely shut some1 down.

Making inturrupts not cast unless they land is going to make inturrupting way to easy. Plus, other professions with disrupts (rangers, warriors) would want the same benefits.

deadxero · Jul 17, 2007, 03:38 PM // 15:38

Another suggestion as to how a Mesmers role in groups could be improved would be to adjust the rate at which healer/nukers gain agro. If enemies had a greater tendancy to pull off of the tank to atack "softer" targets, the Mesmers ability to quickly dispatch individual targets would be much more useful.

Just my $0.02

zling · Jul 19, 2007, 03:19 PM // 15:19

since PvE is all about AoE, even in HM and if Anet does care about Mesmers they should give Mesmers a few tools to work in general PvE. more skills like Cry of Frustration that gives AoE interrupt or perhaps some sort of AoE diversion/Clumsiness or whatever, of course weaker than the original and not a huge AoE. and also boost up the Mesmer faction and sunspear skills, they're so underpowered compared to what other classes got.

those changes wont affect PvP too much as AoE isnt such a big factor(if at all) in it.