Curse

Turbobusa · Apr 19, 2007, 07:37 PM // 19:37

from the posts i've read (only this page

kinda lazy), I see people want mesmers to be damage dealers? or aoe shutdown? come on.

IMO, mesmer is a shutdown profession. Yeah single character shutdown, but isn't that enough powerful? sure it is, in pvp. Would be great for pve, but you cant buff mesmers to make them interrupters on steroids without seeing this abused in pvp.

I think the mesmer profession should stay like this. I enjoy playing one, it takes skill to play but if played right, you win.

And come on, what about monks? I want them to do something else than healing. Smiting? well that's like domination magic, even less effective.
Professions roles are defined, and imo it should stay as it is.

Quote:

From that point of view and looking at the recent changes, it would seem Anet has decided (or always considered) that Mesmers are a PvP class. Use them in PvE as a novelty.

that's sad, but this is my point of view too. Buffing them would make the game imbalanced.

=DNC=Trucker · Apr 19, 2007, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian the Gladiator

REMEMBER THE BULL IN PRE-SEARING?????? Degen owns that mofo, so why not making more enemies like him?

Because -degen- is not in the hands of the mesmer anymore. Your not changing anything here for the mesmer by making degen work a little better. Look at how many sources of degen there really are. If anything the necro, paragon and ranger are just as good at stacking -10 on ya then a mesmer is, and they can deal the hard numbers at the same time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohara

mesmers need more KILL POWER, not just hang out in the back and interrupt/be a pain in the butt power.

? I can't even think of a response to this. All I can say is you may be looking for the Elementalist section.

Helcaraxe · Apr 19, 2007, 10:31 PM // 22:31

I agree mesmer needs a change... I don't agree that we need to become damage dealers... we just need a better way to help out... alot of our hexes are great, but with 15second+ recharge times most mob groups are dead by the time it recharges... and casting it on one mob doesnt do much...

I realize we have Mantra of Recovery to help counter this.... but come on.... why should we be forced to take that single skill in order to be as effective as we can.

I want to see more specific counters, weapon enchantment removal, shout removal, shout counters, a stance counter, I want the mesmer to be able to completely shutdown ANYTHING as long as they previously know what they are up against (which as always been a pre-req for playing the profession to its full potential). There should be no one skill in the game that the mesmer should not be able to counter. I just thought of another skill

Dissolve Memories: If target foe is holding an item that foe loses 1...10 energy and that item disappears. If an item is dissolved in this way you also gain 1...10 energy. Any effects normally triggered by an item being dropped do not take effect. 10e 1c 15r (Inspiration Spell)

You get the idea... we should be the unstoppable counters... but each counter should be spread out so there cannot be the "I counter everything with teh same build" kind of build.

And inspiration has so much potential... how about actually inspiring something?

pingu666 · Apr 19, 2007, 11:25 PM // 23:25

1)fast casting is pisspoor
2)damage is poor
3)interuption is pretty difficult, and against non spell skills your woefully bad
4)dubious energy management
5)heavy penalties for messing up on interuptions, and ether sig (loooooong recharge)
6)medium to high energy cost on spells + long recharges

end result : 9 times out of 10, your worth to the group is less than that of any other proffesion with a comparative build (quality wise) and playerskill.

rangers have a huge edge in interuption
dps wise, mesmers must be around smiting monks, but semi conditional or degen
mesmers cant heal or protect and are maybe the weakest class on the self heal too

draxynnic · Apr 20, 2007, 06:29 AM // 06:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbobusa

that's sad, but this is my point of view too. Buffing them would make the game imbalanced.

That's probably part of the reason why people have been suggesting AOE hexes and shutdown - because in PvP, AOE isn't as important. It isn't unimportant - there's still the chance to get multiple players, especially if they're defending something - but on the whole, players are more likely to scatter intelligently than mobs.

Ergo, increasing their abilities at crowd control - without being direct-damage like SP - does serve as a 'targetted' buff - while it may give them more options in PvP (where they don't really need the buff), it gives a considerably greater leg-up in PvE, where the prevailing opinion is that they do need a helping hand.

So... consider the introduction of a group of AoE shutdown-type skills. Personally, I think Reckless Haste actually should have gone into the Mesmer lineup, possibly Domination (some of the others that have been mentioned you can make arguments for them being Necromancer, but come on, a hex that tricks the enemy into trying to attack so fast they lose more in accuracy than they do in attacking faster? That is so a Mesmer thing). In short, the addition of some of this type of thing could go a long way to addressing at least one of the problems the OP pointed out - the (relative) diminishing returns of the Mesmer compared to the Elementalist as group sizes get larger: while the AOE shutdown would, for balance purposes, have to be less effective than single-target shutdown, if a Mesmer can use AOE shutdown to reduce the overall damage output of an enemy group by, say, 30%*, then that's a role they can play.

*From all sources - after all, cutting melee damage to a group by 66% or even 90% is fairly easy (Enfeebling Blood, any Weakness+Epidemic, any Blind+Epidemic) unless the enemy has decent condition hate.

catharsis · Apr 22, 2007, 02:55 PM // 14:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by pingu666

1)fast casting is pisspoor
2)damage is poor
3)interuption is pretty difficult, and against non spell skills your woefully bad
4)dubious energy management
5)heavy penalties for messing up on interuptions, and ether sig (loooooong recharge)
6)medium to high energy cost on spells + long recharges

1) It's nothing to write home about, but it's definitely not poor. Cutting cast times in half at the high end is pretty significant, and since you can make good mesmer builds out of Domination or Illusion on their own (Inspiration tends to need backup), it's not far-fetched to have FC that high.

2) No it isn't. In fact, if you're building a mesmer specifically for damage output, you can do some very nasty things. All your damage ignores armour, AND you have a ranged deep wound spike in Phantom Pain / Shatter Delusions. In any case, mezzies don't need to focus on damage. The threat of damage can be enough; few people are willing to risk casting through a 140-dmg Backfire, and if they are, power to them. (And yes, it can be removed, but you DID bring a cover hex or two, right?)

3) Interruption's difficult? How so? In PVE it's laughably easy and comes in handy often, and in PVP where people will tend to take spells with lower cast times, you can take Frustration to slow them right back down. See also: fast casting. Makes interrupting much easier. As for non-spell skills, that's what Cry of Frustration and Complicate are for... not to mention, the point of interrupting isn't to interrupt EVERYTHING. It's to interrupt big bad things that hurt. What non-spell skills are people using that you really need to shut down? Troll's Unguent, with its 3-sec cast?

4) Mezzie e-management's only dubious if you're not trying to use it. Try Auspicious Incantation on a 25e skill, or use Power Drain or the Signet version thereof as your interrupt. You'll need a high Inspiration score for these to make any sense, but you can't complain about having poor e-management if you're not willing to spec for it. (Or, if you can't afford the Inspi, snag /E and Glyph of Lesser Energy... you have two professions for a reason).

5) Yes, this is true. But the reward can outweigh the risk, and you can use pre-interruptions like Shame/Guilt/Mistrust.

6) Yeah, recharge can be a pain. You have some tools to get around it (like Echo).

As for self-heals, yes, Ether Feast sucks. But again, you have a second profession, and Illusion of Weakness does not.

Avarre · Apr 22, 2007, 03:08 PM // 15:08

Hee hee.

Quote:

Originally Posted by catharsis

2) No it isn't. In fact, if you're building a mesmer specifically for damage output, you can do some very nasty things. All your damage ignores armour, AND you have a ranged deep wound spike in Phantom Pain / Shatter Delusions. In any case, mezzies don't need to focus on damage. The threat of damage can be enough; few people are willing to risk casting through a 140-dmg Backfire, and if they are, power to them. (And yes, it can be removed, but you DID bring a cover hex or two, right?)

100 damage DW + SD damage every 15 seconds to a single target is some scary DPS, hmm? Especially considering warriors, and even paragons, can deal it out faster to the targets.

This entire topic is about PvE (standard mode, hard mode to an as-yet-unverified extent), and so most of your backfire point does not stand. Backfire has a great deal of PvE power, but it is far from being as useful as the majority of other classes could be with that skill slot.

Quote:

3) Interruption's difficult? How so? In PVE it's laughably easy and comes in handy often, and in PVP where people will tend to take spells with lower cast times, you can take Frustration to slow them right back down. See also: fast casting. Makes interrupting much easier. As for non-spell skills, that's what Cry of Frustration and Complicate are for... not to mention, the point of interrupting isn't to interrupt EVERYTHING. It's to interrupt big bad things that hurt. What non-spell skills are people using that you really need to shut down? Troll's Unguent, with its 3-sec cast?

As far as PvE is concerned, a BHA ranger can interrupt everything, for much less energy expenditure, and with more spammable interrupts. With the exception of return and spike, mesmer interrupts tend to have long recharges when compared to ranger counterparts, and higher energy costs.

With regards to interrupting only critical things - that implies the rest of the monster skills are negligible in their effect. To that point, what use is any form of shutdown, one of the primary roles of the Mesmer. Most mobs with critical skills or power are better handled with a Ranger - or in an older precedent, a shivers necro.

Quote:

As for self-heals, yes, Ether Feast sucks. But again, you have a second profession, and Illusion of Weakness does not.

Speccing high enough into illusion to care, however, is a pain.

Helcaraxe · Apr 22, 2007, 04:13 PM // 16:13

in hard mode I have made good use of shutting down the critical casters, it hasnt been very difficult either, just nail one of their spells with Power Block and then follow up with empathy becuase they have increased wanding speed. So basically you end up with a masochistic and hardly dangerous mob.

Nalia · Apr 27, 2007, 04:48 PM // 16:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by pingu666

1)fast casting is pisspoor
2)damage is poor
3)interuption is pretty difficult, and against non spell skills your woefully bad
4)dubious energy management
5)heavy penalties for messing up on interuptions, and ether sig (loooooong recharge)
6)medium to high energy cost on spells + long recharges

end result : 9 times out of 10, your worth to the group is less than that of any other proffesion with a comparative build (quality wise) and playerskill.

rangers have a huge edge in interuption
dps wise, mesmers must be around smiting monks, but semi conditional or degen
mesmers cant heal or protect and are maybe the weakest class on the self heal too

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjzDvXlHe0o

Wondering if that's enough DPS for you coming from a mesmer.

FoxBat · Apr 27, 2007, 05:09 PM // 17:09

SS works well enough and it's a good idea for getting through some areas. The question is whether your fastcasting is really that preferable over a 15 or 16 curses from a necro, plus needing to put emanagement on your bar instead of passive soul reaping. There are some ele builds which are impressive with fastcasting, but it's hard to see that for curses.

HolyHawk · Apr 27, 2007, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nalia

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjzDvXlHe0o

Wondering if that's enough DPS for you coming from a mesmer.

I do not mean to flame, but as far as I know, ss, reckless haste and price are not mesmer skills .... I think that pretty much explains something. You got a fast casting good looking necro there. I might be wrong, but you are missing the point of this entire topic by posting that.

Nalia · Apr 27, 2007, 09:03 PM // 21:03

Keep in mind, although the mesmer does not have many AoE spells itself to combat
with in PvE, it does offer the ability to enhance current AoE builds. The video
is a representation of such. The general conception is that the mesmer cannot
crank out the same amount of AoE packet and spike dmg to be able to properly
compare and compete with current comparable builds. This is untrue and is proven
as such.

Setting aside the suplemental damage skills used by an SS Necro I have compared
the following SS Necro vs. FC SS Mesmer builds for dps. The suplemental skills are
not compared because many times they differ according to the area or party
construction. Where as the SS Necro may provide more support via skills such as
Blood Ritual or skills specialized to the party, the mesmer has a more limited
pool of skills to use for this focus. The roles of the two are comparable but
not a mirror of one another. The FC SS Mesmer would fit better in a party with
specialized support spells being allocated to the other party members. This is
generally the case in many builds where a single characters bar is too tight to
afford the ability for change.

The following are numerical comparions of the two builds in respect to SS damage
output:

Quote:

Necro calculated at 16 Curses
Mesmer calculated at 12 Curses

4 sec
-------------
necro - arcane echo, ss (37)
Total Single Target DPS: 37

mesmer- arcane echo, ss (29), ss (29)
(ss * 2)
Total Single Target DPS (2 required): 58

6 sec
-------------
necro - arcane echo, ss (37), ss (37)
(ss * 2)
Total Single Target DPS (2 required): 74

mesmer - arcane echo, ss (29), auspicious incantation, ss (29), reckless
[(ss * 2) * .25] + (ss * 2)
Total Single Target DPS (2 required): 72.5

8 sec
-------------
necro - arcane echo, ss (37), ss (37), reckless haste
[(ss * 2) * .25] + (ss * 2)
Total Single Target DPS (2 required): 92.5

mesmer - arcane echo, ss (29), auspicious incantation, ss (29), reckless, price of failure
[(ss * 2) * .25] + (ss * 2) + {[(price / 4) * .25] + (price / 4)}
Total Single Target DPS (2 required): 84.69

10 sec
-------------
necro - arcane echo, ss (37), ss (37), reckless haste, price of failure
[(ss * 2) * .25] + (ss * 2) + {[(price / 4) * .25] + (price / 4)}
Total Single Target DPS (2 required): 104.69

mesmer - arcane echo, ss (29), auspicious incantation, ss (29), reckless, price of failure, ss (29)
[(ss * 3) * .25] + (ss * 3) + {[(price / 4) * .25] + (price / 4)}
Total Single Target DPS (3 required): 120.94

As we can see from the above prooofs, the mesmer will beat out the necro in
startup and long term damage output, and only falls short by a nominal amount
midway through initial setup. If the mobs would die in that time frame then
the necro will be a better choice. The group tested on was well into the
10+ second timeframe of battle duration as seen in the video. There are other
factors to be taken into account such as enemy placement which directly affect
the numbers shown above, but these add a variable to the equation which is
outside of the scope of the proofs themselves and is thus undiscussed. The same
goes for player skill, where as a more skilled player may have a particular method
of dealing more dmg through an alternate method than stated above.

The original topic post specifies that areas in Factions and Nightfall are, at
the time of this posting, too reliant on the usage of high damage AoE for a
mesmer to be of particular use as compared to the trinity. My argument is not that
mesmers have skills in their line that afford a specific advantage or desired
trait vs. the trinity. Rather, I am pointing out that mesmers do have a place
in modification of builds to allow the focus of a character in the build
towards a more specific goal.

My personal experience with mesmers has shown that they can work well in degen
damage based builds as well, through both the illusion skill line and elementalist.
This is not represented here mainly because the enemies tested
against were too weak to warrant them being "worn down" with pressure. It is,
however, a common known belief that mesmers do operate well in pressure builds.

The movement speed of the team with a FC based mesmer will be much higher as
well which would make them ideal for other areas of the game such as Alliance
Battle where the large terrain begs for speed buffs to be used. This also
could be used as an advantage in GvG zerg builds used at the start of a season
or guild reform to attain a higher starting standing on the ladder before
changing to more traditional builds. Although none of this is proven in the
video, many would not argue with the statements made in this paragraph
where as mesmers are generally viewed as being a formidible force in PvP.

Evilsod · Apr 27, 2007, 11:21 PM // 23:21

I don't give a damn what the numbers show...

SS goes on my Necromancer. Empathy goes on my Mesmer. Until i see a Mesmer build that can both screw over enemies, keep a reasonably supply of energy and use Blood Ritual for a sustained length of time i think i'll skip fast cast mesmer secondary crap...

And pressure means jack in PvE. You can only kill Grawl Ulodytes through superior damage, you can't pressure out there energy.

Lord Pharoah · Apr 28, 2007, 12:41 AM // 00:41

Great post, I had every class but Sin right before NF came out and I quit them all to pursue mesmer only. It is my favorite class but I must agree with you here, your post is factual I just wish anet would listen.

Nalia · Apr 28, 2007, 02:02 AM // 02:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

I don't give a damn what the numbers show...

SS goes on my Necromancer. Empathy goes on my Mesmer. Until i see a Mesmer build that can both screw over enemies, keep a reasonably supply of energy and use Blood Ritual for a sustained length of time i think i'll skip fast cast mesmer secondary crap...

And pressure means jack in PvE. You can only kill Grawl Ulodytes through superior damage, you can't pressure out there energy.

You could swap the Leech Signet or Resurrection Signet in favor of Blood Ritual without damaging the energy management or damage output from the build.

Energy Denial does work to an extent in PvE. It is best represented by the use of builds such as the old KGYU build used in GvG which incorporated the use of "Fear Me!" spam and Debilitating Shot while providing it's main source of damage being heavy hex and condition degen. The mesmer worked well in this build as well as a necro minion master. Although I must admit that now I run a Tainted Flesh MM in PvE because of the power an MM of this type can bring to that particular environment.

My post was not to prove or disprove the usage of pressure style builds in PvE though, but rather prove that a mesmer can perform well under high speed, long durations while pumping out AoE packet and spike damage as it's primary source of damage, which I feel is sufficiently proven.

The use of SS on the mesmer could be comparable to the use of a hammer on a ranger. Although at first it may seem idiotic, it has proven thus far to be a viable option that is highly successful in it's target environment. Keeping an open mind on how skills and attributes interact with one another leads to more conceptual builds that are harder to counter but do not lead to the loss of proper kill conditions of their more conventional counterparts.

Note:
I would like to add that the mesmer represented int eh video uses a proactive energy management where as the necro uses a reactive energy management. Meaning the mesmer will gain its energy when it needs it rather than gaining it upon a specific condition such as a dying opponent. If the initial onslaught is insufficient the necro will fall short on damage output drastically as compared to the mesmer.

Another example of this in the past would be the old ED Boon Prot monks vs. the MoR Boon Prot monk. Where as for a while the MoR would provide more energy per second than the ED monk, the specific condition of losing the MoR must be met first. This led to problems of not having the required energy at the desired time. On a monk this meant death to party members, in the video the comparison is between damage dealers though, and so the major difference would be in the amount of deaths inflicted on the opponent.

fripple · Apr 28, 2007, 03:37 AM // 03:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nalia

You could swap the Leech Signet or Resurrection Signet in favor of Blood Ritual without damaging the energy management or damage output from the build.

Energy Denial does work to an extent in PvE. It is best represented by the use of builds such as the old KGYU build used in GvG which incorporated the use of "Fear Me!" spam and Debilitating Shot while providing it's main source of damage being heavy hex and condition degen. The mesmer worked well in this build as well as a necro minion master. Although I must admit that now I run a Tainted Flesh MM in PvE because of the power an MM of this type can bring to that particular environment.

My post was not to prove or disprove the usage of pressure style builds in PvE though, but rather prove that a mesmer can perform well under high speed, long durations while pumping out AoE packet and spike damage as it's primary source of damage, which I feel is sufficiently proven.

The use of SS on the mesmer could be comparable to the use of a hammer on a ranger. Although at first it may seem idiotic, it has proven thus far to be a viable option that is highly successful in it's target environment. Keeping an open mind on how skills and attributes interact with one another leads to more conceptual builds that are harder to counter but do not lead to the loss of proper kill conditions of their more conventional counterparts.

Note:
I would like to add that the mesmer represented int eh video uses a proactive energy management where as the necro uses a reactive energy management. Meaning the mesmer will gain its energy when it needs it rather than gaining it upon a specific condition such as a dying opponent. If the initial onslaught is insufficient the necro will fall short on damage output drastically as compared to the mesmer.

Another example of this in the past would be the old ED Boon Prot monks vs. the MoR Boon Prot monk. Where as for a while the MoR would provide more energy per second than the ED monk, the specific condition of losing the MoR must be met first. This led to problems of not having the required energy at the desired time. On a monk this meant death to party members, in the video the comparison is between damage dealers though, and so the major difference would be in the amount of deaths inflicted on the opponent.

Um. Blood Ritual cannot be put in place of leech signet because you need that leech sig for YOURSELF. BR is not for YOU. And, you know, that whole thing where it costs 10 energy is why it goes with the class that frequently gets 10 energy for free in the middle of a fight. Also, unless you are running a blood spike build for some unfathomable reason, it requires a major 4-way attribute split that will gimp just about everything else you do.

And why the hell, in pve, would you give a shit about fast-casting curses? None of them take more than 2 seconds in the first place, and timing isn't anywhere near as important for the effects they have as mesmer hexes are. Getting an SS stuck on someone .8 seconds faster does not do anything. It's not going to do additional damage. In fact, it will do less, because you're at least 4, and often as many as 6-8, attribute levels below what the necromancer is doing, which means anything beyond the first couple triggers is going to swing efficiency back to the necro.

Orders? They don't stack anymore and, again, only take 2 seconds to begin with. The fast-cast orders mesmer was a product of a time when they could stack with each other and create broken effects with rangers.

Running a FC-secondary build is fine. I've done it too, and it works perfectly well. However, that is failing to be a mesmer. The concern about the role of mesmers in pve is that their own skills aren't getting them into groups, not whether they can drop meteors on someone faster than an ele who isn't using glyph of sacrifice.

HolyHawk · Apr 28, 2007, 05:38 AM // 05:38

Nalia (and not meant just to you), we do understand that dps can be higher using a mesmer with other professions skills. It's no wonder Team Everfrost used 2 mind blast mesmer with lava arrows and blinding flash. And that's why you find tainted mesmers sometimes, because in those builds, Fast Casting generates more dps than having access to runes.

What we are complaining is that the mesmer concept, with the mesmer's skills do not suit well in the pve, because like Avarre summed, pve is healing, tanking and nuking. The ultimate challenge of the game (let's suppose so), is DoA, and guess what, the build consists of 1 tank, either ele or dervish, 2~3 searing flames, monks, and some utility, usually a bip. Where the mesmer could ever possibly fit that? Taking bip, and now hardly, because they request n/r with spirits.

It's an awkward situation, I play pve with my mesmer, I try to advocate them, but the pve itself place mesmer as a disposable option. If there was no mesmer in pve, it would probably make little difference. That's actually serious, mesmer is the most inventive class of the core 6, yet as the game progresses, more unwelcome mesmers become. The only situation I see that mesmer are completely superior to anything else is the 4-man hard mode parties, the entire ascalon. It's still doable up to the desert, but after, they are not really needed anymore. Factions and NF have 8-man parties from the beggining, so you can picture it.

Nalia · Apr 28, 2007, 11:19 AM // 11:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by fripple

Um. Blood Ritual cannot be put in place of leech signet because you need that leech sig for YOURSELF. BR is not for YOU. And, you know, that whole thing where it costs 10 energy is why it goes with the class that frequently gets 10 energy for free in the middle of a fight. Also, unless you are running a blood spike build for some unfathomable reason, it requires a major 4-way attribute split that will gimp just about everything else you do.

And why the hell, in pve, would you give a shit about fast-casting curses? None of them take more than 2 seconds in the first place, and timing isn't anywhere near as important for the effects they have as mesmer hexes are. Getting an SS stuck on someone .8 seconds faster does not do anything. It's not going to do additional damage. In fact, it will do less, because you're at least 4, and often as many as 6-8, attribute levels below what the necromancer is doing, which means anything beyond the first couple triggers is going to swing efficiency back to the necro.

Orders? They don't stack anymore and, again, only take 2 seconds to begin with. The fast-cast orders mesmer was a product of a time when they could stack with each other and create broken effects with rangers.

Running a FC-secondary build is fine. I've done it too, and it works perfectly well. However, that is failing to be a mesmer. The concern about the role of mesmers in pve is that their own skills aren't getting them into groups, not whether they can drop meteors on someone faster than an ele who isn't using glyph of sacrifice.

I think I might be aware as to whether a skill can be used on that bar or not. Please refrain from posting random slander if you have no evidence to back it up other than your personal belief that it cannot be done.

The damage increase was already proven and shown. Please review the data and see for yourself, the power comes from multiple target proccing and is reflected as such. I would be more than happy for someone to post some proofs showing otherwise.

Who said anything about orders?

Once again, thinking outside the box will yield better results than following a mass of idiots. Mesmers are useful in PvE with mesmer skill based bars as well, the problem is that people do not want to run them in their party as such. Also note that most people cannot twitch, so why complain about them casting faster than normal if you werent going to hit it anyways. The problem is that mesmers require player skill and understanding of the game to be higher than a knuckle dragging tank or nuker. Not to say they are all that way, but one must admit that even a low brow such as that can run that aspect of the trinity decently effective.

A primary example of the use of a mesmer in PvE has already been stated in Hard Mode discussion, but don't forget that mesmers are also desired in Thirsty River where people wish to shutdown 1 or 2 monks while taking out an area. The problem in PvE is not so much the mesmer skillset itself but rather the mobbing. The mesmer skillset is unsuited by itself to handle massive groups of eles or monks. Probably because a mesmer like that in PvP would be overpowered and cause complaints (i.e. Spiritual Pain as already stated previously). Using another profession to enchance your job, or even dictate your job does not mean that your character's primary profession is useless. It may even in some cases mean exactly the contrary.

The mesmer brings to the table Fast Casting. If you cannot use that to your advantage then you are already off to a bad start with the mesmer bar you are about to run in many cases. Imagine a monk with no Divine Favor, he wouldnt be that effective. Now try explaining to an ele why he should not take Healing Touch and they usually don't understand. Fast Casting can offer benefits not clearly seen by most, this does not mean it's broken, it means that the community needs to read the skillsets in the game a bit more.

HolyHawk, your constructive criticism is appreciated more so over the flamefest that has ensued. Most of the problems with mesmers are associated to the in game society and their views, in my opinion. Case in point, as stated above, Thirsty River generally has groups looking for a mesmer but the mesmer they get cannot properly shutdown both monks in final chamber far left side. This is not a problem with the mesmer, the mesmer skillset has the skills required to keep those monks locked down the whole battle. The problem is in the player ability and the outlook from the community.

Concerning DoA, my guild came to me a bit ago saying they may need mesmer specifically for Mallyx. Personally I cannot state one way or another if their beliefs are proper in thinking this, but obviously they are having a problem that the trinity cannot easily fix or may be accomplished faster with a mesmer. Not everything in the game can be pulled and nuked in the desired manner. Mesmers fit a nitche as being an alternate way to fix a problem with a build either at the character level, or on a larger scope of party wide view. Accomplishing this is something I believe mesmers should focus on, and thus would leave them as not serving well as primary characters on a person's account.

The 8-man vs. 4-man is not really a discussion for or against mesmers, I believe. Rather you can look at it as being a discussion about excessive nuking and healing. This can be seen in parties with a 3-monk backline in an area only requiring 2 monks. Or even taking extra damage dealers simply because you can fit them in there.

There used to be an art to constructing parties of smaller sizes intentionally without altering the forward movement speed too much. Some examples are UW, FoW, FA, etc. I believe people would like to do that even now, and mesmers were not specifically needed in those particular builds. Places like DoA may prove a different challenge that could warrant a mesmer being required to make smaller groups without speed loss, but on this I cannot be certain as I have yet to do DoA myself. Afterall, farming is all about gold per minute and the slower your group the less money you are making.

I still stand fast to the theory that most of the problems in Guild Wars all can be attributed ultimately to the need for PvE and PvP to be two seperate entities. The mesmer stands no chance to receive buffs to assist in PvE if they would buff the mesmer in PvP as well without reprocussions in many cases. If the two entities were seperated, than the mesmer could be buffed the way the community wishes it to be buffed without hurting the PvP aspect of the game. While this is less inventive and really more of just a quick fix theory, it would reduce many problems.

Avarre · Apr 28, 2007, 02:22 PM // 14:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nalia

I still stand fast to the theory that most of the problems in Guild Wars all can be attributed ultimately to the need for PvE and PvP to be two seperate entities. The mesmer stands no chance to receive buffs to assist in PvE if they would buff the mesmer in PvP as well without reprocussions in many cases. If the two entities were seperated, than the mesmer could be buffed the way the community wishes it to be buffed without hurting the PvP aspect of the game. While this is less inventive and really more of just a quick fix theory, it would reduce many problems.

It is the continual separation of PvE and PvP that has been hurting the Mesmer, not the other way around. The trend of PvE getting monster only skills and monster/area passive buffs, as well as raising levels and group numbers is the varying factor that makes Mesmers less useful than they used to be.

Splitting PvE and PvP would simply show that the game failed to be balanced - the entire idea of the game is Skill over time or skills, and creating 'pve only' content is contrary by emphasizing power of skills - and invalidating the rest of the skills that were intended to be balanced on a single plane.

the_jos · Apr 28, 2007, 05:08 PM // 17:08

Quote:

The trend of PvE getting monster only skills and monster/area passive buffs, as well as raising levels and group numbers is the varying factor that makes Mesmers less useful than they used to be.

Again I do agree with Avarre.
The last few days I had my first full DoA events. Been there before, but not completing all quests in an area (or trying to).
DoA = tank, nukers and monks.
You can bring utility character, but I don't see a great role for mesmers.
The whole area is just about AoE damage.
Ele's = AoE. SS necro = AoE. BiP/EoE = AoE.
Oh wait, my mesmer can completely shut down 1 enemy. Too bad there is a truckload of them.
You want to shut down the monks? Ball them between the other enemies and nuke them. Meteor shower ftw.
DoA, Deep and Urgoz are large groups of the same kind of enemies.
There is no place for mesmers, except in guild teams (in PvE elite area's).