Curse

Avarre · Mar 25, 2007, 03:07 AM // 03:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

I hate doing this, but I really must bring you up on this one - Dolyak Signet is useless to a PvE warrior outside of DoA, *good* PvE warriors use Strength for Enraging Charge and Flail (well... the current Power Attack is cute too...)

Carry on.

Considering the topic at hand tends to be Elite areas, I would say DoA qualifies significantly as a viable area of reference and discussion, not to mention its extensive use in every elite area before then. As DoA is the current state of end-game content, it is probably the most important area to discuss, with regards to how 'elite pve' is being developed.

Elruid · Mar 26, 2007, 08:29 PM // 20:29

I agree with all that has been said regarding the premise of the opening post.
However I think the recent ANet caming out with their plan on evaluating the Mesmer situation in PvE and the possible inclusion of numerous PvE only skills in the next Chapter might coincide.

Possible only PvE skills could include charming foes to do your bidding for a duration, placing them in stasis, teleporting them around, whatever, I hope they have imagination if they put themselves into it.
I'm just saying the inclusion of PvE only skills allows the implementation of "overpowered" or less than favorably balanced skills, that wouldn't fly in PvP. Like what happened with Spiritual Pain.

Maybe they have seen the same problem and have desided to solve it by restricting these up coming PvE skills where they belong and can be straight designed to comply with the environment.

Enix · Mar 26, 2007, 10:24 PM // 22:24

I have posted this before, but I suppose I will say it again -

Primary Attributes are supposed to make classes more effective in their skillset - FastCasting is the only PA that does not do that. How much faster do you need a 1/4 sec interrupt? It is already fast enough! What about other spells, you ask? Anything long enough to benifit from FC is vulnerable to distract itself! That is the inherent flaw in Mesmers - lack of a useful PA. Fixing fastcasting to be linked to Energy and Skill Recharge would be a good start.

Even what Mesmers could do after that is overshadowed by other classes. Like mentioned earlier, rangers are better at interrupting, eles do more damage (and interrupt), monster health is too high for degen. I have made a moderately successful PvE build, but it still dosent nearly match my Ele or Necro's prowess on the battlefield. Unfortunately, Mesmers need AoE to be considered useful in PvE - mistrust, cry, energy surge are on my bar, but those are only mildly useful against very tightly packed groups of casters. I don't see how adding an AoE aspect to Mesmer hexes would be that detremental to PvP - Eles still do more damage to ALL classes in an area, whereas Empathy targets striking foes and Backfire targets casters (and both are not really spamable). Honestly, giving Mesmers AoE would encourage BALANCED groups!. No more stupid Obsid Spike teams or Para shout teams!

Please fix Mesmers Anet - my Mes is too hot to use as a mule.

In response to the typical "The Mesmer is Fine" arguments I am reading on this thread -

The Mesmer is fine, but it's just fine. It's not exceptional at anything. It's the club sandwitch of GW. Yes, I can take down a single caster, especially bosses, with my mesmer quite effectivly, which would be great if GW was full of single level 30 casters in empty fields. But you know, in a team (which is how GW is usually played) I could still take down that caster with BHA a pet and a distract or two. I guess that means the mesmer is not fine afterall. :S

Dean Harper · Mar 26, 2007, 11:31 PM // 23:31

I really miss skills such as Spiritual Pain, which in reality, was the only skill that gave mesmers a great advantage that i have seen ever. Hopefully with the release of EotN, we will get a good new set of skills and Anet will fix our profession for us.

Brian the Gladiator · Mar 30, 2007, 02:45 AM // 02:45

To touch on the comments made, I whole heartedly agree. Mesmers need some help in pve and I think I may have a viable solution.

In the next expansion for Guild Wars (GWEN):

All mesmers need is a spammable degen skill, similar to reapers mark, that is an elite, 5 energy, 6 degen (with fast casting at 14), 2 second cast, 5 second recharge, under fast casting attribute.

Reasons why I think this skill would be beneficial and not overpowered:

1)I know it costs less then reapers mark but mesmers don't have Soul Reaping so energy is harder to get.
2)It is under the Fast Casting line so the skill can't be abused by other classes and it isn't in direct line with other highly powered skills.
3) 6 degen is not too much because it still isn't max or anything
4) 6 degen is not too little because you can couple this hex with a one or two other hexes to max out at 10 degen.
5) this skill is brought down by the 2 second recharge
6) with it being under fast casting and haveing a 2 second recharge it actually gives a real purpose to the fast casting line. (most mesmer skills are quick casts, so why do we need FC)
7) 5 second recharge allows it to be some what spammable in pve and pvp and will allow you to hex multiple monsters before they are all dead.
8) I figure, yes, this skill will be used in pvp fairly often but probably not much more often than reapers mark anyways.

What do you guys think?

Edit: Another viable solution:
I know many people said that degen got weakened when A-net increased health on monsters. In order to strengthen it they could increase armor on monsters in the expansion OR possibly in the hard mode that will be coming out soon. REMEMBER THE BULL IN PRE-SEARING?????? Degen owns that mofo, so why not making more enemies like him?

Avarre · Mar 30, 2007, 06:00 AM // 06:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian the Gladiator

8) I figure, yes, this skill will be used in pvp fairly often but probably not much more often than reapers mark anyways.

You mean, by every (hex) team on the face of the planet? While I like the idea, it would need a good deal of balancing. The only advantage is that by putting it in FC, you can't run a +5 spirit of failure so easily, but GoLE pretty much compensates for that to an extent.

Would need tweaking, but wouldn't be too bad a skill to implement.

Beren985 · Mar 30, 2007, 02:49 PM // 14:49

I think the solution has to come from the modification of the Fast Casting atribute. It is somewhat useful right now, being able to cast 2 sec spells in only 1 makes PvE killing a little bit more fast and amazing, but it gives no really significant advantatge to the mesmers other than that.

Maybe adding recharge-time reduction would help the class without imbalancing the game too much, given energy management factor. Maybe the skill could be reworked in order to help energy management, reducing the cost of the skills a la Expertise, or providing mana under some condition a la Soul Reaping. Maybe the attribute could give mesmer's spells some grade of AoE in function of how many points are spent; i.e. with a lvl4 in FC being able to hex 2 attatched enemies casting only one hex like Empathy, with lvl8 to 3 foes, and so on.

I think mesmer needs a general reworking, and modifying Fast Casting may be the best way to do so.

Terra Xin · Mar 31, 2007, 12:43 PM // 12:43

Why is it that e-denial has no purpose in this game? I'll give one reason, as well as an application of that reason. It's because if... If you deny a target of energy, you're effectively preventing that target from using energy related skills in the long-run. Targets, unfortunately, die before that 'long-run' comes into effect. Now, if you deny a targets energy, you're effectively preventing (for example) an offensive energy-based damage dealer from activating a particular skill, again, in the long run. When looked at in this perspective, an entire bar of e-denial to prevent the effect of a handful of skills on a single target, can be prevented, instead, with consistent use of [skill=text]Orison of Healing[/skill] (that's right), or any other (single) skill fitted to that given situation. When a comparison like that is made, then you have a very clear understanding as to why E-Denial is useless in PvE. In PvP however, the case is different, because battles constantly enter to the point where energy becomes vital, and E-Denial shines well in there.

Then we have a Mesmer's second utility. Shutdown. I'll just go with the jist of this thread and say, Knockdown. A mechanic that is readily available to warriors, elementalists, monks (lol, now that's sad), assassins and ritualists. Paragons and Dervishes have influences in relation to knockdown, also. The missing classes are Ranger, Necromancer and Mesmer. Mesmers have only one elite conditional KD hex.

Quote:

Originally Posted by frojack

While your point of view here is certainly PvE, you can't just ignore PvP.

I completely understand where you're coming from, which is why I originally decided to bring up the possible suggestion of having skills for both PvE and PvP separated for balance. There are just too little situations in which you can make skill balances over the entire game and still claim that the skills are balanced in both. That is something that cannot be ignored. With that in mind, I can very easily go *boot* to PvP. You can still use the suggested skills into PvP, but not in the current state that they are in.

Quote:

Your skill ideas...

I'm with Avarre on this one. The simpler you make the skills, the more complex play you will find them in. Overly complicated skills will doubtfully find themselves on any bars. Especially in PvE where the opposition is a joke.

You can define a skill by the way that it is used, and not necessarily by what it actually does. Unfortunately that theory does not apply... anywhere within GuildWars. In actuality, you can define a player by the way in which they use skills, the goal of the skill is only to 'be used', GuildWars business model 101. :P Every single other class has a simple skill - these skills are called spam spam spam spam *dead*. Mesmers are... unique in that perspective, but the complexities are so diverse, the Mesmer effectively fails to fulfill a single role.

It would be a great defining moment if you or Avarre could define a simple skill, without the following from occuring:

A simple damage dealing spell
A simple, spammable hex
But most importantly...A skill that would not find its way into more than 90% of skill bars (because that naturally overshadows all other Mesmer skills ref: Pre-nerfed Spiritual Pain) in PvE.

Quote:

Still, I'll continue to beat this horse. The mesmer as a class is fine as it is. It's the pillowed nature of PvE that dumbs them down.
Roll on Hard Mode. Hopefully this will address these concerns.

There is something wrong with the mesmer class if they cannot find a role in PvE - that's all the simplicity you need before finding a solution to the problem. With the current mechanics of GuildWars, there is really no way to make PvE more effective for the mesmer, that another class wont already benefit from. It is possible to tweak the mesmer so that they can become more effective in PvE, without breaking their undefined uniqueness about them - unfortunately, as a community, we are simply not there yet, and will continue to strive and rely on tales and testimonials to keep the profession alive - because that's all that has been happening so far. (Ironic, to think that changing a mesmer would be a bad thing, when they aren't really an effective profession in PvE in the first place.)

I said that in my original post that 'Hope' was all the Mesmer had. Hard mode will with no doubt, be an improvement to all classes, but Anet will have to go that extra mile to make it more suitable for the mesmer - gosh, if half of us don't know what the current purpose of the Mesmer is, then how will Anet figure one out?

rohara · Apr 01, 2007, 09:33 AM // 09:33

i'd like to see a small skill recharge buff to the fast casting attribute tbh.

for pve, this is how it goes...i engage the mob, shut down the monks, hex a few of the others that are most dangerous, then i stand there wanding everything because all my skills are recharging XD by the time they do recharge, there's really no sense in wasting 15 energy reapplying a hex on a foe that is down to 10% health. not to mention, half the time the baddies won't cast whilst they have backfire on making it kind of a waste. sure, you benefit from the monk not healing...but blackout could have achieved the same effect. mesmers need more KILL POWER, not just hang out in the back and interrupt/be a pain in the butt power.

Ishtar Serket · Apr 02, 2007, 12:40 AM // 00:40

I have to agree with a lot that has been said here. I've never used my mes in pvp so I can't comment there but in PvE its often hard to get into a group because mesmers tend to have a limited impact against PvE enemies. Many mes skills aren't really necessary in a full human group and spots in a party can have other people that can do more than a mes. Many skills as the aforementioned E-denial skills are useless in PvE since in general no single enemy is going to live long enough to lose all energy. A guildmate ended up using Mo secondary and being a fast casting healer for much of Prophecies since she couldn't get into groups. The above poster mentioned lack of killing power for mesmers. Whilst that is true, I don't necessarily think thats the problem. Mesmers can do a lot of damage by slapping on a lot of hexes but the key is that they are over time. Mesmers generally lack skills that do decent damage at once. Even some of the skills that do a specific amount of damage at once seem to have a requirement of some sort..

What could help are skills that affect more targets at once. Not a multi target hitting Empathy since thats SS but something that can interrupt multiple enemies at once. Make it so there's a skill similar to a standard interrupt that causes all enemies in relatively close range to the target that are casting a spell to be interrupted at once. The interrupt could do no damage to help balance it out or cost more energy than a standard interrupt, maybe make it an elite. Another thing would be more skills that give energy to you or health to you upon interrupt since a mes is rather limited in its ability to heal unless it brings a self heal from its secondary.

Finally as was said, the primary att for each profession is supposed to be of significant advantage over those that have Me secondary. Fast Casting isn't vitally important to most mes skills that cast rather fast to begin with. Also I can't say the number and variety of FC att skills makes Mes primary of much advantage. Other classes of something about their primary att that makes it good; necros' SR means MMs can have the max number of minions at once. Dervs get bonuses for when their enchants end, Eles have Energy Storage which gives them the energy pool needed for all their high energy requirement spells, monks have Divine Favor to give them heal bonuses to all their heal spells. Mesmers meanwhile don't get something out of using FC that other classes get out of their primary atts. There's what, 8 FC att skills total through the 3 campaigns? Definitely the key to making Mesmer more useful in PvE is to add skills there that will not only make people want to have mes as a primary profession but also give them skills that would make them more attractive to parties with others.

This is a purely PvE point of view so obviously the difficulty in balancing with PvP would be rather difficult and I'd leave that to Anet to first come up with some skills that would help. More than likely though the answer would probably end up being to buff certain skills already around until they're more useful, at least until the next campaign comes out.

LightningHell · Apr 02, 2007, 02:37 AM // 02:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ishtar Serket

What could help are skills that affect more targets at once. Not a multi target hitting Empathy since thats SS but something that can interrupt multiple enemies at once. Make it so there's a skill similar to a standard interrupt that causes all enemies in relatively close range to the target that are casting a spell to be interrupted at once. The interrupt could do no damage to help balance it out or cost more energy than a standard interrupt, maybe make it an elite. Another thing would be more skills that give energy to you or health to you upon interrupt since a mes is rather limited in its ability to heal unless it brings a self heal from its secondary.

Just pointing it out, but I believe there's already Cry of Frustration out there.

Ishtar Serket · Apr 03, 2007, 12:55 PM // 12:55

Yeah however thats a one time thing. I was thinking more along the lines of something that lasts ~5 seconds since anything more would be overpowered. That or they could increase the duration but make enemies treat it as an AoE spell though that wouldn't make much sense.

frojack · Apr 12, 2007, 02:38 PM // 14:38

So guys. What are your thoughts after the recent 'adjustments'? I haven't been able to play lately due to real life 'busy-ness'. I don't imagine it's improved much looking at them.
All in all I think their inadequacy in PvE is just a by-product of constant PvE 'fun' tweaking.
From that point of veiw and looking at the recent changes, it would seem Anet has decided (or always considered) that Mesmers are a PvP class. Use them in PvE as a novelty.
I know it's a bit pessimistic to say it but thats how it seems...

Illuminator · Apr 12, 2007, 03:03 PM // 15:03

MoR Mistrust Shame Guilt ress sig 3 random skills

Pick the scariest caster in the group and shut it down.

Imho seems fine to me, and yes i play this with my mesmer wich looks stunning in her 15k rogues btw

Hundbert · Apr 14, 2007, 12:01 PM // 12:01

I sometimes use Norgu the mesmer hero in pve in those areas with alot of spellcasting. With mantra of recovery and cry of frustration he can disrupt alot of spells like deep freeze and other hard hitting aoe stuff.
But i guess in pugs people just want tank-nuker-healer and that's it

LightningHell · Apr 15, 2007, 08:08 AM // 08:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ishtar Serket

Yeah however thats a one time thing. I was thinking more along the lines of something that lasts ~5 seconds since anything more would be overpowered. That or they could increase the duration but make enemies treat it as an AoE spell though that wouldn't make much sense.

You mean, total and complete shutdown for all casters in an area for 5 seconds?

...Please think about PvP.

TGgold · Apr 15, 2007, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

You mean, total and complete shutdown for all casters in an area for 5 seconds?

...Please think about PvP.

Doesn't Maelstrom already do this. And it does damage. Yet...it's an Ele skill.

And no, this is not overpowered. *holds q for 2 seconds*, look I'm out of the range of the spell.

I think there should be things like this.
Or an Elite Hex:

For 5...20 seconds, whenever target foe attacks or uses a skill, all adjacent foes are interrupted.

LightningHell · Apr 15, 2007, 11:55 PM // 23:55

Oh, I thought you meant something close to a hex that is applied and it takes effect on all foes.

My bad.

BSSuperman · Apr 19, 2007, 03:21 PM // 15:21

Stop thinking about larger Damage output or AoE spells as a solution to Mesmers. Think Inspiration. Why the hell doesnt the Mesmer have Inspirational skills that help their team-mates?
Those damage reducing stances that give an energy return... Why can't the Mesmers give that to their team-mates? I agree with everything about the interupts becoming universal. I hate hitting powerleak when I wanted Cry of Frustration... Imagaine how much people would want a Mesmer in their group if they could maintain Inspirational enchantements that reduced damage or nullified burning etc.?

XvArchonvX · Apr 19, 2007, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by TGgold

I think there should be things like this.
Or an Elite Hex:

For 5...20 seconds, whenever target foe attacks or uses a skill, all adjacent foes are interrupted.

I'm not sure this is the best way to do it, but I do think that there definately should be some elite form of Cry of Frustration.