Curse

Antithesis · Apr 14, 2008, 12:55 AM // 00:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sethellington

still don't agree with vengeance... sorry -.-

Don't knock it 'til you've tried it. I was the first to jump on the "Vengeance is crap" bandwagon - in theory it sounds crap, in practice it works.

Most battles are over within that 30 sec rez timeframe and seriously, as soon as Vengeance is cast it's like nothing has happened - whoever died bounces straight back up in 2 secs and gets back into it.

The Mes hero rarely gets targeted and is often the last or second last to drop in a party wipe, so Vengeance is a viable anti-spike battle rez.

DarkSpirit · Apr 14, 2008, 06:02 AM // 06:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

Don't knock it 'til you've tried it. I was the first to jump on the "Vengeance is crap" bandwagon - in theory it sounds crap, in practice it works.

Thanks.

I find [Vengeance] to be useful when things are going wrong and I am with my H/H. I know that many human players do not like to be resurrected with Vengeance. I think it makes them look bad, showing that they have died before and falling flat on their faces after 30s, so if you are playing with someone else, then replace it with [Resurrection Chant].

Super Igor · Apr 14, 2008, 01:27 PM // 13:27

Vengeance ownz, Droks on PvX will be prowd of you.

~Super Igor

~

Antithesis · Apr 14, 2008, 10:44 PM // 22:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

What elite do you think we should replace it with then? [Power Block] or [Psychic Instability] or [Stolen Speed] maybe?

I did a fair bit of testing with each of these Elites. PI would have been great in combination with [earthbind], if PI was still a hex that knocked down on every interrupt. It's now an interrupt skill that causes knock down. Stolen Speed needs to be micro'd to be effective.

So that leaves Power Block which the hero will use and use well against offensive casters. Complete shutdown of a skill line is pretty effective.

toastgodsupreme · May 01, 2008, 08:21 PM // 20:21

I really don't see why Veng is hated.

Full life, full energy, no point investment needed.

And for heroes/henchies, even more important due to the fact that DP on them is a nightmare, especially if they die RIGHT after being res'ed (which does happen depending on how bad things are going).

He's not saying THE ONLY res you should have on your team is Veng. But for Gwen to be carrying it, why NOT? The monks have better things to do than res if there are people dying.

On my monk heroes, I keep res disabled and manually do it. If things are going bad, I don't need them to stop healing and prot'ing so they can res someone.

So stop hating on the guy.

Super Igor · May 01, 2008, 10:20 PM // 22:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by toastgodsupreme

I really don't see why Veng is hated.

Full life, full energy, no point investment needed.

And for heroes/henchies, even more important due to the fact that DP on them is a nightmare, especially if they die RIGHT after being res'ed (which does happen depending on how bad things are going).

He's not saying THE ONLY res you should have on your team is Veng. But for Gwen to be carrying it, why NOT? The monks have better things to do than res if there are people dying.

On my monk heroes, I keep res disabled and manually do it. If things are going bad, I don't need them to stop healing and prot'ing so they can res someone.

So stop hating on the guy.

Yeah, I agree, Vengeance may not be a good choice in PvP but it is definetely a good choice for PvE as an aweasome mid-battle rez. Vengeance resurrects with FULL health and energy no matter what, this means that if you res say, a character responcible for healing mmid-battle with full energy and health it could start doing its job right away which will turn the tide of battle to your side.

Even if the battle would be prolonged enough (which is unlikely) for Vengeance to end the character could be rezzed with it again.

I do agree that due to the fact of it being an enchantment spell it could be removed, ut hey, how often do you see mobs using enchant removal on right targets/

So its would be random.

After battle vengeanced character would die, but you dont have to rez him with vengeance again dont you, it has been said that Vengeance showld not be your only rez in the team.

I do have a question about Vengeance though, does it only effect the raw damage the character deals or any damage (including spells etc.)? I yes it would be aweasome sausage with SH and stuffs.

Quote:

What elite do you think we should replace it with then?

Prophecies Power Block20¼15Elite Spell. If target foe is casting a Spell or Chant, that Skill is interrupted. The interrupted Skill and all Skills of the same attribute are disabled for 3..13..16 seconds for that foe. (Attrib: Domination Magic)

or

Factions Psychic Instability1015Elite Hex Spell. For 5..17..21 seconds, anytime target foe is interrupted that foe is knocked down. (Attrib: Domination Magic)

or

Factions Stolen Speed315Elite Hex Spell. For 5..17..21 seconds, target foe's spells take 25% longer to cast and your spells targeting that foe take 25% less time to cast. (Attrib: Fast Casting)

maybe?

In my oppinion MoR should be the best choice for this bar as heroes use it very effectively and it makes spells racharge fasteer.

If you cant use it by any means then i would go for Power Block, as Antithesis said above heroes do use it quite well and disabling of entire attribute chains should be very helpful in many areas and vs. those pesky elementalist bosses.

PI is great too, It cant disable the entire att chains but KD should be very helpfull, I agree that some of mobs in PvE cant be knocked down but still, not too many, and if you know that the area has quite a few of them, nobody would force you to take PI. In the rest I do like the fact of it iterrupting the skill+KDing the foe for two seconds, which means he cant do anything in that time giving YOU time to kill it.

I dont like Stolen Speed though... Interrupts are fast enough anyway, and heroes have good enough reflections to interrupt things well without SSpeed.

~Super Igor

~

Antithesis · May 01, 2008, 10:34 PM // 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

Yeah, I agree, Vengeance may not be a good choice in PvP but it is definetely a good choice for PvE as an aweasome mid-battle rez. --snip--
I do agree that due to the fact of it being an enchantment spell it could be removed, ut hey, how often do you see mobs using enchant removal on right targets/

So its would be random.

Vengeance in HM rocks - Party members dies, 2 secs later it's back up and running at full power.

Enchantment stripping is not a major problem - i took a Vengeful Rezmer into FoW, had deaths that required Vengeance rezzes and didn't once have it stripped. Death Nova was the only other Enchantment in the party.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

In my oppinion MoR should be the best choice for this bar as heroes use it very effectively and it makes spells racharge fasteer.

If you cant use it by any means then i would go for Power Block, as Antithesis said above heroes do use it quite well and disabling of entire attribute chains should be very helpful in many areas and vs. those pesky elementalist bosses.

Agreed. I only take Power Block if i can still buff the Mesmer with [[weapon of quickening].

I've used variants of DarkSpirit's build since i first attempted to tear it to pieces. I've dropped the SS from Sabway and compressed the Minion Bomber and Curser onto the one bar. eg

Physical DarkSabway -

[Jagged Bones][animate bone minions][death nova][putrid bile][barbs][enfeebling blood][weaken armor][signet of lost souls]

[mantra of recovery][cry of frustration][power spike][drain enchantment][power drain][empathy][waste not want not][vengeance]

[weapon of fury][splinter weapon][mend body and soul][spirit light][protective was kaolai][life][signet of lost souls][death pact signet]

Caster DarkSabway -

[Jagged Bones][animate bone minions][death nova][putrid bile][barbs][enfeebling blood][weaken armor][signet of lost souls]

[mantra of recovery][cry of frustration][power spike][drain enchantment][power drain][empathy][waste not want not][vengeance]

[weapon of quickening][mend body and soul][spirit light][protective was kaolai][life][shadowsong][signet of lost souls][death pact signet]

Empathy and Waste Not, Want Not (needed to power Empathy) are the optional slots for whatever else the team needs.

Super Igor · May 01, 2008, 10:53 PM // 22:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

Vengeance in HM rocks - Party members dies, 2 secs later it's back up and running at full power.

Vengeance on such mesmer hero pretty much works like DPS but slightly better as for its ability of ressing at full health and energy no matter of its caster's, also it does not have a downside of double death if something goes wrong.

Also Vengeance has its aweasomeness to the fact of it preventing DP on the rezzed character!

And what is more, with such mesmer bar it is possible to keep ressurecting two characters (or just one) even out-of-battle in case of excessive crumbling/wipeing to permanently prevent DP on them/it.

To sum it all up I would say that though the only possible downside of Vengeance is that it cant be stripped as an enchie is outshined by the aweasome possibilities it gives to a party on both HM and NM.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

Agreed. I only take Power Block if i can still buff the Mesmer with [[weapon of quickening].

I've used variants of DarkSpirit's build since i first attempted to tear it to pieces. I've dropped the SS from Sabway and compressed the Minion Bomber and Curser onto the one bar. eg

Physical DarkSabway -

[Jagged Bones][animate bone minions][death nova][putrid bile][barbs][enfeebling blood][weaken armor][signet of lost souls]

[mantra of recovery][cry of frustration][power spike][drain enchantment][power drain][empathy][waste not want not][vengeance]

[weapon of fury][splinter weapon][mend body and soul][spirit light][protective was kaolai][life][signet of lost souls][death pact signet]

Caster DarkSabway -

[Jagged Bones][animate bone minions][death nova][putrid bile][barbs][enfeebling blood][weaken armor][signet of lost souls]

[mantra of recovery][cry of frustration][power spike][drain enchantment][power drain][empathy][waste not want not][vengeance]

[weapon of quickening][mend body and soul][spirit light][protective was kaolai][life][shadowsong][signet of lost souls][death pact signet]

I do like your idea of combining MM with curses spells, aweasome idea to be honest though I would rather stick Mark Of Pain on the physical support MM bar for higher AoE damage synergy with physicals (maybe instead of weaken armor/Barbs).

It wasnt the point though, my point here is that I am continuosly (how do I spell that? :/) noticeing that when there is a hero with WoQ, that hero considers a mesmer as a priority target for it. I first thought that it was just a random luck but no, WoQ was on the mesmer like 90% of the time, so if taking a good-but-long-recharging PB on a mesmer hero WoQ would be nearly a must have elite to be somewere in your hero concepts.

P.S. Still need an answer for my question, does Vengeance only effect the raw damage the character deals or any damage (including spells etc.)? I yes it would be aweasome sausage with SH and stuffs.

Antithesis · May 01, 2008, 11:01 PM // 23:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

It wasnt the point though, my point here is that I am continuosly (how do I spell that? :/) noticeing that when there is a hero with WoQ, that hero considers a mesmer as a priority target for it. I first thought that it was just a random luck but no, WoQ was on the mesmer like 90% of the time, so if taking a good-but-long-recharging PB on a mesmer hero WoQ would be nearly a must have elite to be somewere in your hero concepts.

WoQ + MoR = 50% recharge on all spells. The Mesmer becomes a machine gunner, i use this setup in general PvE.

I take PB when facing a nasty ele boss, i've noticed WoQ gets planted on the Mesmer a lot too. I normally take Splinter Weapon in all team builds but i've seen it on the Mesmer when WoQ should have been cast instead. So if taking PB, drop Splinter Weapon.

Mark of Pain is good and the WoQ speed buff can help the recharge, but everything dies quickly anyway so i'd rather drop MoP due to it's AI scatter.

Super Igor · May 01, 2008, 11:40 PM // 23:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

WoQ + MoR = 50% recharge on all spells. The Mesmer becomes a machine gunner, i use this setup in general PvE.

I take PB when facing a nasty ele boss, i've noticed WoQ gets planted on the Mesmer a lot too. I normally take Splinter Weapon in all team builds but i've seen it on the Mesmer when WoQ should have been cast instead. So if taking PB, drop Splinter Weapon.

Yeah, a machine gun mesmer interrupter with deadly AI reaction is well, deadly, what else can i say.

I too have noticed that sometimes (though much much rarely then before) heroes would cast SW on the mesmer, wile observing the problem a bit longer i have noticed that it depends on how aggresive the player is compared to heroes, so for example if you initially rush to the mob of foes and would be the closest party member to it or use a bow t lure it they would cast SW on you, on other hand if you send you hero to lure (I know, it stupid) or say, kite back there woud be a possibility that SW gets on a caster.

I am not 100% sure about this pattern though, neither I can explain it too clearly (but you get the point I hope

).

Quote:

Mark of Pain is good and the WoQ speed buff can help the recharge, but everything dies quickly anyway so i'd rather drop MoP due to it's AI scatter.

Have to agree on this point, though I do really like MoP the scatter sometimes get nasty, considering that it goes in all directions including the one to your caster "backline", scatter also messes up with minion wall as the minions seem to follow the scattered mobs. I do want to point out that if timed right and with bit ofluck and snare MoP can me deadly (MB+MoP+SW, wonderful!

).

Xunlai Secret Agent · May 02, 2008, 06:34 AM // 06:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Areas without enchant removal -> no chance of death -> vengence useless
Areas with enchant removal -> vengence gets stripped -> vengence useless

Bingo.

1234567890

DarkSpirit · May 02, 2008, 07:08 AM // 07:08

Didn't notice this before:

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Areas without enchant removal -> no chance of death

Super Igor · May 02, 2008, 04:19 PM // 16:19

I herd someone lieks enchs... yeah sure, you can make an uber 1337zor out of yourself or theorycraft in a perfect manner, but on practice things can get quite wrong in PvE, for example: In some areas, like charr areas or in Kaineng, you get mobs with no enchantment stripment who deal MASSIVE physical and PB/AoE damage (Jade Brotherhood on HM), so no matter what you say things can get wrong when battling these guys, it is not hard to kill them but there is very likely of some characters to die especially while H/Hing the area.

So lets immagine your monk henchie dies, this means you could have less surviveability and are at risk, so ressing that monk at full health and energy is aweasome, it would start doing its job right away wilst turning the tide of battle, honestly, it is hard to achieve this kind of effect with any other rez.

So cellard, I would phrase it this way: Areas without enchant removal -> Vengeance = double aweasome.

~Super Igor

~

Cathode_Reborn · May 02, 2008, 06:49 PM // 18:49

Now that Death Pact Signet has been reverted, I'll stick with it.

DarkSpirit · May 02, 2008, 06:55 PM // 18:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn

Now that Death Pact Signet has been reverted, I'll stick with it.

The update was only 1s casting time difference anyway. Whatever res you bring is not crucial to the build in any case.

Antithesis · May 03, 2008, 12:34 AM // 00:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

The update was only 1s casting time difference anyway. Whatever res you bring is not crucial to the build in any case.

Agreed, but i'll stick with Vengeance. There's a lot of theorycrafting and not too much actual testing in this thread. I poo-poo'd it too until i tried it in a caster-heavy area and the build rocks.

Enchantment stripping has yet to cause a Vengeance death for me even in FoW. And if it does, who cares!...they're back up in 2 secs at full strength and/or i've just got myself a couple of fresh minions.

Richardt · May 03, 2008, 04:52 AM // 04:52

My friends used to laugh with Vengeance, but I gotta say it gets the job done-although there is some amusement when you forget to disable it, and the vengeance mesmer keeps rezzing the guy before the other rezzers....

Super Igor · May 03, 2008, 11:23 AM // 11:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

Agreed, but i'll stick with Vengeance. There's a lot of theorycrafting and not too much actual testing in this thread. I poo-poo'd it too until i tried it in a caster-heavy area and the build rocks.

Enchantment stripping has yet to cause a Vengeance death for me even in FoW. And if it does, who cares!...they're back up in 2 secs at full strength and/or i've just got myself a couple of fresh minions.

Therycrafting ownz! How can a full health full energy in-battle rez be bad in PvE?

Yeah and agreed on the minions.

Cathode_Reborn · May 04, 2008, 06:49 AM // 06:49

[skill]Keystone Signet[/skill][skill]Signet of Distraction[/skill][skill]Leech Signet[/skill][skill]Signet of Disruption[/skill][skill]Hex Eater Signet[/skill][skill]Mantra of Inscriptions[/skill][skill]Signet of Pious Light[/skill][skill]Signet of Pious Restraint[/skill]

I'd keep Wind prayers low and just give the hero a crippling mod. No energy needed so a Shield should be used also. Keep Earth Prayers up high so the heals are abit stronger. Testing at the Nameless isle, he doesn't seem to use Restraint often, yet he casted it on both the monk "masters" fine. Still though you can just micro it yourself. They'll run up to use Hex eater signet so you might wanna take it out unless you really need the hex removal.

[skill]Keystone Signet[/skill][skill]Signet of Distraction[/skill][skill]Leech Signet[/skill][skill]Signet of Disruption[/skill][skill]Succor[/skill][skill]Mantra of Inscriptions[/skill][skill]Signet of Rejuvenation[/skill][skill]Purge Signet[/skill]

Succor's just a Hex eater replacement since Purge is in there. Could take it out for some other random thing. Sig of Rejuvenation is actually a nice heal if you meet the req.

[skill]Keystone Signet[/skill][skill]Signet of Distraction[/skill][skill]Leech Signet[/skill][skill]Signet of Disruption[/skill][skill]Hex Eater Signet[/skill][skill]Mantra of Inscriptions[/skill][skill]Signet of Toxic Shock[/skill][skill]Signet of Shadows[/skill]

...If you can blind/poison and want some damage.

Antithesis · May 04, 2008, 08:05 AM // 08:05

Hey Cathode, did you mean to post those builds in this thread or the Artificer thread?