Curse

Yggdrasil · Mar 30, 2008, 07:44 PM // 19:44

I don't know why everyone is freaking out about the rez so much, if you don't like it switch it. It's not like there is a "perfect rez" which destroys all the others, and Dark has given a coherent, well-reasoned argument as to why his choice is viable.

As for the build, it's almost the same as what I have on my M/ heroes, and it generally works very well.

Slightly off topic, but I have to wonder when mods are going to start cracking down on some of these sub-forums. Things are becoming more and more of a tangle of useless LOLcat/txt-msg/cat-pics, flames, and general dickery.

Coloneh · Mar 31, 2008, 02:54 AM // 02:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Why MoR? MoR reduces the recharge time of all her spells by 33%. This means she is ready with CoF (AoE interrupt) every 10s instead of 15, she is ready with Power Drain (gives nice energy bonus) every 13s instead of 20, etc.

Why do I need fast casting for interrupts? Fast casting allows the mesmer to interrupt spells with as short as a quarter casting time (e.g. Reversal of Fortune, Reversal of Damage, etc.). Notice that many of the interrupt spells have only a quarter (0.25s) casting time themselves. This may not be as relevant to human interrupters because of lag and slow reflexes but it is more important for hero interrupters without lag and super fast reflexes.

With 14 FC, her interrupt spells cast in 0.13s. Giving her a chance to actually interrupt quarter casting time spells.

1. why are you spamming interrupts on recharge, that dosnt really make any sense at all, waiting for spells that matter is good.
2. do you really think your hero is interrupting RoF(while actually trying to, not attempting to hit the spell before it)? whatever...

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Most people just do not know how to use mesmers. I have been playing since GW started and let me tell you that before heroes came, many people even think that interrupts are useless in PvE so most PUGs didnt even want an interrupter. Look at what happens now? When more people started adding interrupt skills to their hero builds, they began to understand the value of interrupts in PvE. But many people still do not understand the finer points of interrupting so they wouldn't know why a primary mesmer, with MoR and fast cast, makes a better interrupter than a secondary mesmer.

yes, yes. I dont know how to play mesmer. this is obviously the entire explination for not understanding why they are amazingtabulous.... right....
anywayyyyyssss
people want interrupters now? really? are you sure? a BHA/epidemic ranger interrupts, but i wouldnt call them an interrupter. they deal tons of damage, mesmers dont.

Tyla · Mar 31, 2008, 03:01 AM // 03:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Res chant is a better res than FOMF. Under MoR, it only has a 10s recharge time. Even Death Pact Signet (another restoration res) is a better res than FOMF.

DPSignet is the best res skill there is...
And FomF is close second. 4 casting time and no recharge = win.

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Most people just do not know how to use mesmers. I have been playing since GW started and let me tell you that before heroes came, many people even think that interrupts are useless in PvE so most PUGs didnt even want an interrupter. Look at what happens now? When more people started adding interrupt skills to their hero builds, they began to understand the value of interrupts in PvE. But many people still do not understand the finer points of interrupting so they wouldn't know why a primary mesmer, with MoR and fast cast, makes a better interrupter than a secondary mesmer.

The point of Mesmers is not only to disrupt, but to mess up the enemies' skillset.
Thing like Diversion, which are weak in PvE, because things die too fast. It's a wasted skillslot.
Shutting things down in PvE is too much energy on a Mesmer, because things have to be spammed.

DarkSpirit · Mar 31, 2008, 06:05 AM // 06:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

1. why are you spamming interrupts on recharge, that dosnt really make any sense at all, waiting for spells that matter is good.

Why would the hero be spamming interrupts needlessly? MoR just makes sure interrupt spells are ready sooner.

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Originally Posted by tyla salanari

DPSignet is the best res skill there is...
And FomF is close second. 4 casting time and no recharge = win.

I disagree. FomF has a steep health cost, without high armor for protection, a mesmer needs that hp to help stay alive in HM so I prefer to go with a full health/full energy res. But replacing vengeance with whatever res skill that you fancy doesn't break this build anyway.

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Shutting things down in PvE is too much energy on a Mesmer, because things have to be spammed.

No, it is not energy intensive at all and no spamming is needed when you have pin-point accuracy.

Coloneh · Mar 31, 2008, 06:25 AM // 06:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

No, it is not energy intensive at all and no spamming is necessary when you have pin-point accuracy.

I thought this was a hero build? all heroes can do is spam.

DarkSpirit · Mar 31, 2008, 06:32 AM // 06:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

I thought this was a hero build? all heroes can do is spam.

Why would a hero spam interrupts into the air if there is nothing to interrupt? Mesmer interrupt skills are highly conditional and doesn't waste needless energy.

Coloneh · Mar 31, 2008, 08:35 PM // 20:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Why would a hero spam interrupts into the air if there is nothing to interrupt? Mesmer interrupt skills are highly conditional and doesn't waste needless energy.

because heroes are stupid and mobs are stupid, so they will be throwing interrupts at everything mobs cast.

Super Igor · Mar 31, 2008, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Vengeance, after the buff turned out to be quite godly, got nearly no dp at all on my party after a wipe in HM.

~Super Igor :Ninja:~

Trvth Jvstice · Mar 31, 2008, 11:53 PM // 23:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

because heroes are stupid and mobs are stupid, so they will be throwing interrupts at everything mobs cast.

Imo- that's a good thing.

Interrupt Mesmer heroes are amazing - I've tried it and I like them much better than a Ranger hero with D Shot and S Shot. As I've said before, Gwen - with the interrupt bar from Pvxwiki interrupts mobs insanely fast. You hear the interrupts going off constantly - Heroes have inhumanly fast reflexes and can scan the entire mob at once for spells/skills to interrupt. A Ranger hero against a mob will run out of interrupts way too quickly to have the kind of effect that an interrupt Mesmer has.

Also: OK, I'll put Vengeance on Gwen for one more try. Maybe the last time I tried it and it turned out t be a frustrating mess was a fluke.

MercenaryKnight · Apr 01, 2008, 11:15 PM // 23:15

Don't you have to put gwen on aggressive inorder for the ai to scan mobs? I noticed usually they only interrupt what you target if turned on guard.

Super Igor · Apr 01, 2008, 11:21 PM // 23:21

Even so, wuts teh problem?

~Super Igor

~

Trvth Jvstice · Apr 01, 2008, 11:52 PM // 23:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

Don't you have to put gwen on aggressive inorder for the ai to scan mobs? I noticed usually they only interrupt what you target if turned on guard.

I have Gwen set to Guard and she interrupts constantly against a mob. Sometimes when we're approaching a mob and they see Gwen, the PVE casters fall to their knees and cry. I have actually seen this happen - no lie.

Super Igor · Apr 02, 2008, 11:34 PM // 23:34

I whant to see a wurm at frastmaw's fall to its knees, now! :P

~Super Igor

~

MercenaryKnight · Apr 03, 2008, 01:48 AM // 01:48

Wurms don't have knees =P. My point was that it might cause her to run into aggro ahead of anyone else because of the hero ai with being set to aggressive.

DarkSpirit · Apr 03, 2008, 07:15 AM // 07:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

Wurms don't have knees =P. My point was that it might cause her to run into aggro ahead of anyone else because of the hero ai with being set to aggressive.

I heard that even if you lock her on a monster, she would get distracted by other casting monsters standing beside it and try to interrupt them too.

Antithesis · Apr 03, 2008, 09:03 AM // 09:03

Why take a dedicated anti-caster interrupter when Dazed + Epidemic allows every party member to perform an interrupt? The answer is simply to find a role for that fatty Norgu or that spiteful runt Gwen in PvE.

Nothing wrong with that, but a bar of anti-spell interrupts is not exactly the most effective way to use a Hero slot when one PvE slot on a Player bar, or a dazing skill on a Hero bar will accomplish the same goal. Assuming Heroes could use Power Return properly, this one skill could replace half the bar if interruption is the primary objective.

It's a rare mob that has more than two threatening targets that need to be shut down concurrently, so the ability to interrupt multiple casters at once (which i've yet to witness) is a weak argument. So too is a touch-range Hex removal when there are very few mobs with hexes to worry about and the ONLY hexes to worry about affect physicals.

I tried this build and it has little to offer when there are no spells to interrupt. Even when there are spells you'd expect to be taken out, a Mesmer will stand there and let it happen (on Guard, Fight, or Avoid). I'll take 20 secs of Dazed and Needling Shot any day of the week. Cry of Frustration aside (which is rarely used), it's all but useless against a physical...it just stands there recharging MoR, casts the odd Mistrust, waits for a corpse to rez or runs into melee range to remove a degen Hex.

Mesmers are the squishiest class in PvE - the only character to die while trialing this build was the Mesmer, so i'm not putting a last ditch rez like Vengeance or a touch-range Hex removal on the bar of a corpse. If you NEED a rez like Vengeance you've got some work to do on your team build.

I personally prefer not to take narrow-focus characters like Mesmers and even Monks in favour of classes who can run hybrid bars, contributing both offensively and defensively to the team. What's this Mes got? Interrupts, a touch-range Hex removal and a weird skill that's only effective when your team is dying and you have to rez that party membeer again 30 secs later...pfft, i'd rather keep my team alive than stick a weak link in the chain.

Each to their own...it looks like a fun build but is weaker than existing alternatives like Broad Head Arrow + Epidemic, which only takes up 2 slots on a Ranger bar. Power Block or Hex Eater Vortex, even Fevered Dreams can be more useful if you absolutely, positively need to take a Mes.

DarkSpirit · Apr 03, 2008, 10:01 AM // 10:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

Why take a dedicated anti-caster interrupter when Dazed + Epidemic allows every party member to perform an interrupt? The answer is simply to find a role for that fatty Norgu or that spiteful runt Gwen in PvE. Nothing wrong with that, but a whole bar of anti-spell interrupts is not exactly the most effective way to use a Hero slot when one PvE slot on a Player bar, or a dazing skill on a Hero bar will accomplish the same goal.

BHA+Epidemic is one of those builds that look good on paper but sucks when you try it on a hero. The hero simply doesn't want to cast Epidemic and when he does, it will be for a different condition, or when there are no other monsters closeby, or it would be the only monster left standing. The hero AI has no concept of how close an adjacent monster is before casting that spell.

Furthermore, if I want a BHA interrupt ranger, I'll bring Zho. Why do I need a BHA hero? She doesn't have Epidemic, but heroes dont use that right anyway.

Besides, unless you set your heroes to aggressive (not the best idea for casters), they would be attacking the same target as you, so it defeats the purpose of an AoE daze. And daze from technobabble lasts only 4s typically or 6s at max Asura for a high cost of 15e with 18s recharge.

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So too is a touch-range Hex removal when there are very few mobs with hexes to worry about and the ONLY hexes to worry about affect physicals.

I have to disagree with you. Many hexes like Diversion and Backfire can also be devastating to casters, especially hero/hench casters who dont know better.

However, I agree with Sab that most PvE hexes can be healed through, even though in certain places you still need a hex remover, unless you dont mind your heroes/henchies enjoying a bath in wurm bile or Last Rite of Torment. In other places where a hex removal is not needed, then simply replace hex eater with Spiritual Pain.

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I tried this build and it has little to offer when there are no spells to interrupt. Cry of Frustration aside (which is rarely used), it's all but useless against a physical...it just stands there recharging MoR, casts the odd Mistrust and waits for a corpse to rez or runs into melee range to remove a degen Hex.

I agree that this is an anti-caster build. If you want some melee hurt, feel free to bring Empathy or other anti-melee hexes, and replace Hex Eater and/or Power Spike.

I rarely see my mesmer running forward just to get rid of a hex, she usually uses it only when the enemies start diminishing, but my mesmer doesn't die easily either even in HM, maybe because of the runes and insignia that I put on her. If you dont like Hex Eater, switch it, it is not an essential skill in the build.

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Mesmers are the squishiest class in PvE - the only character to die while trialing this build was the Mesmer, so i'm not putting a last ditch rez like Vengeance or a touch-range Hex removal on the bar of a corpse. If you NEED a rez like Vengeance you've got some work to do on your team build.

I choose vengeance because it has worked wonders for me in HM, reducing the overall DP my party gains (i.e. I dont use consummables). A full life and full energy res is the best in HM and even if the ally dies while in vengeance, he gains no further DP. Anyway if you dont like vengeance, simply change the res.

I dont know why you are facing so much problem keeping your mesmer hero alive when I didnt have that problem even in some of the hardest areas in HM. I think there is a problem with your team build.

Antithesis · Apr 03, 2008, 10:11 AM // 10:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

BHA+Epidemic is one of those builds that look good on paper but sucks when you try it on a hero. The hero simply doesn't want to cast Epidemic and when he does, it will be for a different condition, or when there are no other monsters closeby, or it would be the only monster left standing. The hero AI has no concept of how close an adjacent monster is before casting that spell.

Bollocks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

I have to disagree with you. Many hexes like Diversion and Backfire can also be devastating to casters, especially hero/hench casters who dont know better.

I've never seen a caster drop due to a hex. Besides, [skill=text]Hexbreaker Aria[/skill] anyone? The only problem hexes are anti-physical and the only area they're a problem is EoTN, and at best they're a minor annoyance. Hence, Sab's has no Hex removal because it's not needed. And nor are interrupts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

I dont know why you are facing so much problem keeping your mesmer hero alive when I didnt have that problem even in some of the hardest areas in HM. I think there is a problem with your team build.

I don't take 4 Monks to keep a Mesmer alive. Drop the Mesmer, no problems.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

I choose vengeance because it has worked wonders for me in HM, reducing the overall DP my party gains (i.e. I dont use consummables). A full life and full energy res is the best in HM and even if the ally dies while in vengeance, he gains no further DP.

If you're taking a lot of DP, you really need to rethink your build. I've never used a consumable.

The point is, you're dedicating a Hero slot to something that's useful in less than 1% of the game. If that works for you great and congrats for thinking outside the box, but a Mesmer's a really weak option when those 8 skill slots can be put to better use.

Trvth Jvstice · Apr 03, 2008, 01:29 PM // 13:29

Honestly the only time I take Gwen is in an area I'm very familiar with and that I simply enjoy playing. I take Gwen when I already have a great team build and she is just there to mix things up a bit, in other words, I could have just flagged her at the start and beaten that area fine without her.

If I'm really facing a difficult area (with my Warrior) I take Olias, Master of Whispers, and Vekk. Or if I'm playing my Necro, I take Olias (MM), Vekk, and a Paragon hero.

DarkSpirit · Apr 03, 2008, 03:45 PM // 15:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

I've never seen a caster drop due to a hex. Besides, [skill=text]Hexbreaker Aria[/skill] anyone? The only problem hexes are anti-physical and the only area they're a problem is EoTN, and at best they're a minor annoyance. Hence, Sab's has no Hex removal because it's not needed. And nor are interrupts.

Sab never said hex removal is NEVER EVER needed anywhere, just that in most cases in PvE hex removal is not necessary because it can be healed through. Furthermore Sab's restoration necro, is equipped with powerful party heals so it is usually not needed with his build. Can't say the same for other team builds.

It doesn't mean that hexes are useless against casters. If Mhenlo's WoH gets diversioned, Mhenlo may not drop dead immediately, but your party pays the price. You may not even realize it because diversion takes effects even before Mhenlo finishes casting the skill. Hexbreaker Aria alone is too weak, and Paragons do not have anymore hex removing skills, which is why Rac's variant had to rely on Emphatic Removal.

Another thing about hex removal is, you can replace Hex Eater with Inspired/Revealed Hex if you prefer a ranged hex remover. If it is monster hexes that you are worried about, Inspired hex would work better than the signet, since it recharges immediately.

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I don't take 4 Monks to keep a Mesmer alive. Drop the Mesmer, no problems.

I never use 4 monks either. But I do use Sab's healer and Mhenlo, so I only have 1 monk.

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If you're taking a lot of DP, you really need to rethink your build. I've never used a consumable.

If I have been taking alot of DP in HM, I wont be able to continue playing in HM.

I would say check your team build. I didnt have a problem when replacing the SS necro in his build with Gwen when I needed interrupts.

And I have tested BHA+Epidemic+Volley many times in HM, it just doesn't work with the heroes AI, I had to micro-manage alot and click Epidemic for the hero each time. The hero prefers to volley most of the time and I even saw him casting Epidemic on the last monster left standing.