Curse

Dodo The Extinct · Feb 10, 2008, 02:01 PM // 14:01

Quote:

Mesmers are good against casters.

Necros are good against melee.

Feel free to ignore the entire Illusion Line

Marverick · Feb 10, 2008, 09:56 PM // 21:56

[skill]Reckless Haste[/skill][skill]Enfeebling Blood[/skill] > the entire Illusion line

Clarissa F · Feb 11, 2008, 04:09 AM // 04:09

[skill]ineptitude[/skill] , [skill]images of remorse[/skill] , [skill]clumsiness[/skill] , [skill]conjure phantasm[/skill] , [skill]conjure nightmare[/skill] , [skill]signet of illusions[/skill] say hi to melee.

Terraban · Feb 11, 2008, 05:51 AM // 05:51

[skill]Images of Remorse[/skill][skill]Reckless Haste[/skill]

Long lost twins?

horseradish · Feb 11, 2008, 06:08 AM // 06:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clarissa F

[skill]ineptitude[/skill] , [skill]images of remorse[/skill] , [skill]clumsiness[/skill] , [skill]conjure phantasm[/skill] , [skill]conjure nightmare[/skill] , [skill]signet of illusions[/skill] say hi to melee.

Don't get me wrong, I love the attribute, but although the Illusion line has some good anti-melee skills, they pale in comparison to the Curses attribute.

DarkSpirit · Feb 11, 2008, 09:19 AM // 09:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Personally, I think this in a nutshell describes the problem with PvE mesmers: Necromancers stole their best skills. SS, SV and Reckless Haste could all have been Mesmer skills, and if they were we wouldn't be having this discussion.

(Necromancers would still have MMing, battery-ing, and orders, so they should still be viable without SS and other skills that let them do the mesmer's job better than the mesmer.)

For that matter, I've been eying off some of the Asura skills (Pain Inverter, I'm looking at you!) and wondering if they were originally concepted as Mesmer elites...

Considering what we have rather than what might have been... let's look at the fundamentals that would be required for a Mesmer primary to be better than a something-else primary with a Mesmer secondary

For a particular primary class to be better than another for a particular build, at least one of the following needs to be true:

1) The primary attribute has to be important, or at least more beneficial than the alternatives.

2) At least one attribute needs to be over 12

3) Multiple attributes from the class are needed, making runes important.

For the first, the Mesmer appears to be handicapped by a primary that people just don't see as being as important as energy-management primaries such as E-storage and Soul Reaping.

For #2 and #3, the Mesmer is handicapped by the fact that for a lot of skills in the Mesmer's specialty, the benefit for a high attribute is actually secondary to the main effect of the skill. When using an interrupt, often the attribute-linked effect is secondary to the fact that you've just blocked their spell. For enchantment and hex removal effects, it's the removal that's important, which usually happens unnaffected by attributes.

That's not to say that you should run Mesmer skills without the attributes, it's just that the extra points from runes probably don't make that much of a difference. So even in those specific cases where the Mesmer does come off better than one of the competitors (interrupting a target that has enough of a block chance to deter a Ranger, for instance), if you're not relying on a Fast Casting skill, chances are some other profession can do a decent job at faking it.

For this reason, I think in finding a role that Mesmers can do better than everyone else (that doesn't require specific circumstances), SoI will probably be the key by introducing a way to use a high Illusion score on skills where the high score actually matters. This could be used in one of two ways:

1) To take advantage of a combination of skills that would normally be too attribute-intensive to put on a single character. (Usually this would be resolved by taking two characters, and it would be handicapped by having to regularly apply SoI, but sometimes squeezing two characters into one in this way may be worth it. Maybe.)

2) As has already been mentioned - to achieve versatility, largely by stealing your friend's elite when appropriate. Clearly, this is still going to leave you playing second fiddle to whoever you're stealing your skill from. However, if you're facing a variety of situations, a character capable of raising a Flesh Golem in one combat, throwing Searing Flames in the next and Spiteful Spirit in the one after that may well prove to be more useful then taking an additional character of the type you're mimicking over the course of the mission as a whole.

If this doesn't work, we need to fall back on making Fast Casting relevant. Short of finding a build that absolutely needs Mantra of Recovery (and that does its job better than any build that doesn't need Mantra of Recovery can) I suspect the condition-spread builds may be the best candidate - cutting the time it takes to apply those conditions and the condition-spreading skill by 30% may prove to be a significant advantage... or at least one that offsets the alternatives.

QFT.

This post has the same line of thought that I have. I haven't really tried a condition spreader build, of the 2 options presented above, I feel that the SoI path has a greater opportunity for success:

Quote:

1) To take advantage of a combination of skills that would normally be too attribute-intensive to put on a single character. (Usually this would be resolved by taking two characters, and it would be handicapped by having to regularly apply SoI, but sometimes squeezing two characters into one in this way may be worth it. Maybe.)

I am not going to add on to the huge list of builds here. I just like to point out that SoI can also be used to max up PvE skills from 3 different titles and combine that with what you said above about taking spells from different attributes (Hint: even the spells from the primary attribute line of your secondary profession) into the same skill bar.

And before anyone replies that a non-mesmer can still max the 3 titles from these chosen PvE skills, I would like to say that is possible, but highly unlikely to find such an individual especially when finding players for a PUG.

System_Crush · Feb 11, 2008, 10:47 AM // 10:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clarissa F

[skill]ineptitude[/skill] , [skill]images of remorse[/skill] , [skill]clumsiness[/skill] , [skill]conjure phantasm[/skill] , [skill]conjure nightmare[/skill] , [skill]signet of illusions[/skill] say hi to melee.

That build has 2 elites O.o

Longasc · Feb 11, 2008, 12:45 PM // 12:45

How about that:

16 Illu, 13 Fastcasting

1. Wandering Eye
2. Clumsiness
3. Signet of Illusions (E)
4. Images of Remorse or Ether Nightmare
5. Cry of Pain
6. Empathy (use with SoI)
7. Glyph of Lesser Energy
8. Power Drain (use with SoI to gain 33 energy)

You have 97 AoE damage from Wandering Eye, 97 small area AoE damage from Clumsiness and SoI makes your PvE skills max rank in case you have not maxed them. CoP adds 100 more AoE damage. It also serves to power Empathy and Power Drain to gain some energy. No Rez, but you could scratch one skill of your choice if you want one.

This is almost a Necro without Soul Reaping and has no real utility, it just deals raw damage with hexes.

Clarissa F · Feb 11, 2008, 08:29 PM // 20:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by System_Crush

That build has 2 elites O.o

It was a list of skills. Note the commas.

tinygod · Apr 22, 2008, 04:58 PM // 16:58

I love how no body bothered to point out how unbelievably powerfull signet of illusions is. Especially in PVP. But still powerfull in PVE

In PVP 16 in illusion 13 in Fast Casting.
[skill]conjure phantasm[/skill][skill]conjure nightmare[/skill][skill]Signet of Illusion[/skill][skill]Scourge Healing[/skill][skill]Arcane Larceny[/skill][skill]Arcane Thievery[/skill][skill]Kitah's Burden[/skill][skill]Signet of Humility[/skill] Use this build to stack degen on a monk, than steal two heals, disable his elite heal and leave anyother healing he has left doing 90 dmg to him, everty time it goes off. Say good Night Monk. (worsk best in Fort Aspenwood, on either side)

Kattar · Apr 22, 2008, 05:40 PM // 17:40

This is where reading the entire thread comes in handy, tinygod.

Most people here find SoI gimmicky. Just because you just discovered it doesn't mean no one else has.

Katari · Apr 22, 2008, 06:16 PM // 18:16

[build=OQRDA4oHTPBlB2BWCCA5ixkriA]
Pretending to be a curses nec is a rather effective way to play a mesmer in PvE, provided your team isn't made of fail. Be sure to bring physicals along. Since tanks are made of fail, MoP becomes a nice way to breakup trains of melee in your midlines, and will end up doing a non-trivial amount of damage before the scatter kicks in.

t00115577 · Apr 22, 2008, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Mesmers have been under-rated since the begining of GW imo, (in PvE).

They are very good if you dont like going in pug teams, like 90% of players i assume, as pugs fail 9/10 times. They can pretty effectively do anything, shutdown, dmg, interupt, spread conditions, heal.... so they go well with heros/henches.

Sure there are classes better at everything than them, but IMO none are as versatile, and that is a mesmers real strength.

Chthon · Apr 22, 2008, 06:53 PM // 18:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by tinygod

I love how no body bothered to point out how unbelievably powerfull signet of illusions is.

Actually, they did; and, actually, it's not.

I tested out all of the SoI gimmicks in this thread plus several from other threads and found that it's just not that great. It's at its best on Me/N with vanguard assassin, arcane echo, mark of pain, and barbs, but even then it's a second-rate imitation of a high-vanguard-rank N/X who gets soul reaping instead of fast casting and can use spiteful spirit or assassin's promise for the elite.

-------

Also, since this thread seems to have totally peetered out -- along with my motivation for playing my mesmer heavily -- I suppose it's time I announce a winner. It's tempting to say that no one wins, since none of the builds generated here can really outperform another class at the same role. But then people would accuse me of being cheap, so I'm going to give the prize to the build concept I found most effective: Fevered Dreams. Terraban suggested it first, so I'm going to name him the winner. Terraban, PM me with your IGN and I'll give you the 10k.

------

Also, also, since the nerf to blinding flash, the Fevered Dreams build-in-progress that I posted earlier isn't working as well as it used to. So I'm in the process of reworking it. The current build-in-progress is:
[build prof=Me/E][fevered dreams][Power Drain][You Move Like A Dwarf][Ash Blast][Finish Him][Ebon Hawk][Glyph of Lesser Energy][Sunspear Rebirth Signet][/build]
Notes:
1. You Move Like a Dwarf seems not to always work immediately if you try to cast it during Ash Blast. It's best to hit YMLAD slightly before Ash Blast to ensure the blind lands.
2. Don't forget that YMLAD can be used as a hard interrupt in addition to part of your blind combo.
3. I remain unsure if weakness deserves a skillslot. It seems largely redundant with the blind, and most parties should have a curse necro with enfeebling blood anyway. If weakness does deserve a skillslot, then I'm not sure whether to use ebon hawk for control and direct damage, or summon mursaat for low cost (the mursaat costs me 10e, then it pays 10e for weakness multiple times) and some free wand damage.
4. With two of the priciest skills being norn shouts, GoLE is looking less attractive for this build. I'm open to thoughts on other e-management options.
5. As before, I have a hard time justifying Me/E instead of E/Me for this build.

weretoad · Apr 22, 2008, 11:19 PM // 23:19

ok when you first said rangers are better at interupting then the mez[ i thought your insane, and i still think your insane, people can freaking side step to dodge an ranger, and rangers can interupt 1/4 speed casting spell like a good mes can. infact in pvp i interupted an interupting ranger. mez are a lot more reliable then a rangers interupts. then Shame, Guilt, and Mistrust can interupt unlike rangers can. you aren't the first person to say mez suck in pve, but you obviously don't know.

Chthon · Apr 23, 2008, 03:35 AM // 03:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by weretoad

ok when you first said rangers are better at interupting then the mez[ i thought your insane, and i still think your insane, people can freaking side step to dodge an ranger, and rangers can interupt 1/4 speed casting spell like a good mes can. infact in pvp i interupted an interupting ranger. mez are a lot more reliable then a rangers interupts. then Shame, Guilt, and Mistrust can interupt unlike rangers can. you aren't the first person to say mez suck in pve, but you obviously don't know.

1. PvE mesmer, thank you.

2. If you sidestep while casting, you interrupt your own spell. The ranger accomplished what they set out to do.

3. Mesmers can't "interrupt" 1/4 sec casts; they can anticipate when the cast is coming and throw an interrupt out hoping they guessed right -- the same as rangers.

4. Dazed works just as well as Shame/Guilt/Mistrust at preemptively interrupting a target -- even better because it doesn't end after just one spell.

weretoad · Apr 23, 2008, 12:42 PM // 12:42

ok i see you have a point but aren't rangers interrupt rely on attacks, which can be counter by..... guess who......... mesmers! i the thing mezmers have over rangers is they can interrupt an interrupting ranger so therefore mesmers can be used much more generally then rangers

Trouveur · Apr 23, 2008, 01:19 PM // 13:19

I disagree, mesmers ca do damages very well.

I currently swith between two builds :

An Illusion one :

[Signet of Illusion][Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support][Auspicious Incantation][Conjure Nightmare][Cry of Pain][Wandering Eye][Clumsiness][Resurrection Chant]

Very good for AoE damages with 92 damages from [Wandering Eye], 92 damages from [clumsiness] and 100 damages from [Cry of Pain]. All armor ignoring of course.

It also never runs out of energy thanks to the AI + CN combo.

And all the damage skills reload themself in 10-12 seconds.

And a Domination one :

[Assassin's Promise][Phantom Pain][Cry of Pain][Shatter Delusions][Energy Burn][Unnatural Signet][Backfire][empathy]

With a enough high level Norn rank PP and SD can be replaced by ["Finish him!"] and [Spiritual Pain]

Not as much AoE damages, but can kill a target very quickly (Deep wound and 90 + 100 + 75 + 75 = 340 armor ignoring damage) and then jump to another one. Energy and recharge time are not a problem thanks to [Assassin's Promise].

[Empathy] and [Backfire] are very good in HM, thanks to IAS and FC of the foes.

[Pain Inverter] is a good alternative to [Backfire], although Backfire is more versatile because it works on monks too.

Alleji · Apr 28, 2008, 08:41 PM // 20:41

[skill]Empathy[/skill] [skill]Guilt[/skill] [skill]Mistrust[/skill] [skill]Shame[/skill] [skill]Frustration[/skill] [skill]Power Spike[/skill] [skill]Resurrection Chant[/skill] [skill]Echo[/skill]
12+3+1 Dom
10+1 Illusion
8+1 FC

Just went through EotN with this bar. While I can't point out one thing that it does better than anything else (with a possible exception of screwing ridiculously buffed fast-casting bosses that BHA ranger cannot shut down), it does a lot of things at the same time.

It also made me love echo (at least in PvE). Initially I just ran a bar with echo power spike for fun in HM precipice, but it turned out to be really potent. Echo lets you adjust your bar to better deal with every group individually:
Melee-heavy? Echo empathy and spam it on recharge. Not quite as good as SS, but you're not a necro.
Caster-heavy? Echo mistrust for massive damage and interrupts.
Shutting down a single caster? Frustration and echo power spike. Does savage shot punch eles for 165 damage? Didn't think so.

Basically, I'd recommend this to anyone who wants to play a real mesmer in PvE and not try to fill another profession's niche. Give it a try. :P

Oh and e-denial isn't completely worthless in PvE... I agree it's mostly worthless, but it's hilarious when it actually ends up being effective. For example, I screwed over Disk of Chaos (that destroyer boss in central transfer chamber) with echo guilt. It just sat there and couldn't cast anything... was pretty funny

weretoad · Apr 28, 2008, 11:14 PM // 23:14

ya on the fact that power spike interrupts and has an ability it proves much more powerful then rangers interrupts. so they disable skills, mesmers can do it. and mesmers can do dmg, AOE interupt, e-denail, to say a few. btw rangers spell slowing techniques is dazed A CONDITION and conditions are way easier to get rid of.