Curse

Liquid Wood · Dec 12, 2007, 11:09 PM // 23:09

Yeah I know what you mean, being a substantially PvE Mesmer. Along those lines its almost always the mesmer that has to carry those annoying items during missions lol. Its sort of like, "Hey you, memser, carry the jar since you dont need your weapons or energy to do anything." o well lol

Chthon · Dec 13, 2007, 12:58 AM // 00:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liquid Wood

Wnayway tell me what you think...

This build is exclusively single-target damage, plus a bit of single-target melee shutdown. That means that you're miles behind eles and necros doing huge DPS via AoE and doing their shutdown on an AoE basis. Compared to the single-target physicals, you're still behind the DPS of something like a dragon slasher (although not by as much), your single-target shutdown doesn't mitigate as much damage as SY, or TNtF, or even WY, and you're not walking around in 80+ armor.
So, I hate to say it, but Necro/Ele > your build and dragon slasher/decent physical > your build. That doesn't mean that it's a bad build per se. I'm sure you get along just fine with it. But it does mean that this build isn't the reason to choose a mesmer over another class that I am looking for.

Liquid Wood · Dec 13, 2007, 02:50 AM // 02:50

Yeah your definetly right, but I think you would be seriously surprised at how much damage you do as whole in your party. But something that mesmers do even better than rangers is interupting. I went through all if the fire island missions with this interupt build and honeslty shut down 80% of attempted enemy casts, not to mention some significant damage.

Domination 16
Fast cast 11
Inpiration 8

Empathy
Backfire
Shatter Enchantment
Leech Signet
Power Leak
Power Spike
Cry of Frustration
Power Block (e)

I would argue that I could prolly interupt better than any ranger with this build. Interupting obvioulsy takes practice but I think that mesmers have the potential to be hands down the best interupters. Obviously you would use Power Block on one enemy (in PvE this shuts them down for 16sec), then move to the next and use power leak to drain their energy so they cant really use anything powerful very soon. Then move to another person obviously targeting casters and use power spike to to like 106 damage. I think you get the point... Cry of Frustration is really good in groups btw. (prolly knew that already though) The other non interupts are just good old fashoin hexes that are just good back up to the group.

So what do you think of this one?

Chthon · Dec 13, 2007, 04:18 AM // 04:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liquid Wood

I would argue that I could prolly interupt better than any ranger with this build.
...
So what do you think of this one?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

[skill]broad head arrow[/skill] says hello

As do

and [skill]distracting shot[/skill] and [skill]concussion shot[/skill] and [skill]savage shot[/skill].

Dazed, skill disable, fast recharges, and low e-costs made even lower by expertise allow rangers to meet or exceed your 80% interrupt rate only spending two skillslots or so to do it. I'm sorry, but ranger interrupter > your interrupter. Again, not that your interrupter is bad, just that it doesn't justify replacing the ranger on a team.

I do however sincerely appreciate the effort.

draxynnic · Dec 13, 2007, 05:41 AM // 05:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

[skill]Spiteful Spirit[/skill] > you

Personally, I think this in a nutshell describes the problem with PvE mesmers: Necromancers stole their best skills. SS, SV and Reckless Haste could all have been Mesmer skills, and if they were we wouldn't be having this discussion.

(Necromancers would still have MMing, battery-ing, and orders, so they should still be viable without SS and other skills that let them do the mesmer's job better than the mesmer.)

For that matter, I've been eying off some of the Asura skills (Pain Inverter, I'm looking at you!) and wondering if they were originally concepted as Mesmer elites...

Considering what we have rather than what might have been... let's look at the fundamentals that would be required for a Mesmer primary to be better than a something-else primary with a Mesmer secondary

For a particular primary class to be better than another for a particular build, at least one of the following needs to be true:

1) The primary attribute has to be important, or at least more beneficial than the alternatives.

2) At least one attribute needs to be over 12

3) Multiple attributes from the class are needed, making runes important.

For the first, the Mesmer appears to be handicapped by a primary that people just don't see as being as important as energy-management primaries such as E-storage and Soul Reaping.

For #2 and #3, the Mesmer is handicapped by the fact that for a lot of skills in the Mesmer's specialty, the benefit for a high attribute is actually secondary to the main effect of the skill. When using an interrupt, often the attribute-linked effect is secondary to the fact that you've just blocked their spell. For enchantment and hex removal effects, it's the removal that's important, which usually happens unnaffected by attributes.

That's not to say that you should run Mesmer skills without the attributes, it's just that the extra points from runes probably don't make that much of a difference. So even in those specific cases where the Mesmer does come off better than one of the competitors (interrupting a target that has enough of a block chance to deter a Ranger, for instance), if you're not relying on a Fast Casting skill, chances are some other profession can do a decent job at faking it.

For this reason, I think in finding a role that Mesmers can do better than everyone else (that doesn't require specific circumstances), SoI will probably be the key by introducing a way to use a high Illusion score on skills where the high score actually matters. This could be used in one of two ways:

1) To take advantage of a combination of skills that would normally be too attribute-intensive to put on a single character. (Usually this would be resolved by taking two characters, and it would be handicapped by having to regularly apply SoI, but sometimes squeezing two characters into one in this way may be worth it. Maybe.)

2) As has already been mentioned - to achieve versatility, largely by stealing your friend's elite when appropriate. Clearly, this is still going to leave you playing second fiddle to whoever you're stealing your skill from. However, if you're facing a variety of situations, a character capable of raising a Flesh Golem in one combat, throwing Searing Flames in the next and Spiteful Spirit in the one after that may well prove to be more useful then taking an additional character of the type you're mimicking over the course of the mission as a whole.

If this doesn't work, we need to fall back on making Fast Casting relevant. Short of finding a build that absolutely needs Mantra of Recovery (and that does its job better than any build that doesn't need Mantra of Recovery can) I suspect the condition-spread builds may be the best candidate - cutting the time it takes to apply those conditions and the condition-spreading skill by 30% may prove to be a significant advantage... or at least one that offsets the alternatives.

sixofone · Dec 13, 2007, 02:48 PM // 14:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

If this doesn't work, we need to fall back on making Fast Casting relevant. Short of finding a build that absolutely needs Mantra of Recovery (and that does its job better than any build that doesn't need Mantra of Recovery can) I suspect the condition-spread builds may be the best candidate - cutting the time it takes to apply those conditions and the condition-spreading skill by 30% may prove to be a significant advantage... or at least one that offsets the alternatives.

What if they made FC increase the recharge rate of spells, not just the casting time? Say .5% for every point in the attribute? A 5-6% speed up in recharge makes a Mesmer's interrupt ability all that much more likely, and makes this an attribute worth putting points into. (Need to buff some of the Inspiration e-management skills, though. Energy could be a big problem without it as a Mesmer would be getting spells off and recharged so quickly.)
They can take away some of the stances in this case - which most people feel aren't worth taking anyway. I've seen a few posts by people complaining about Mantra of Recovery being worthless. I don't agree, but I understand their frustration.

Liquid Wood · Dec 14, 2007, 01:00 AM // 01:00

Once again I see what you saying, but if you look at the energy costs and recharge times on those ranger skills, even with Expertise your still gonna run low on energy quite quickly. Your going to be waiting for energy instead of watching for interupts... In my experiance I still think a mesmer makes a better interupter ^^. (especially with a 20/20 or 40/40 weapon set)

And to comment on the original intent of this discussion, a mesmer isn't an ele or a necro, and wasn't meant to do the same things as an ele or a necro. So comparing them is not what you want to do. Instead, I would look at all the kick ass things that mesmer can do and an ele or necro cant, even if they aren't things like huge DPS or necro nuking. What makes a mesmer, a mesmer is their ability to just flat annoy the heck out of the opposition, which in my opinion can be more valuable than huge damage and is especially more useful in team situations.

Also I really enjoy the versatility of being a mesmer. As a mesmer I have succesfully, Run (Shadow Running), Monked (Prot Mesmer lol), Tanked (Illusionary Weaponry + Mantras), Interupted and nuked. This is not to mention all the full blood mesmery stuff like Ineptitude and Fevered Dreams etc...

Anyway just have fun with you mesmer character!

Chthon · Dec 14, 2007, 01:38 AM // 01:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liquid Wood

Once again I see what you saying, but if you look at the energy costs and recharge times on those ranger skills, even with Expertise your still gonna run low on energy quite quickly. Your going to be waiting for energy instead of watching for interupts...

In that case, I think you need a lot more practice with rangers before you comment again on their quality as interrupters.

Quote:

And to comment on the original intent of this discussion, a mesmer isn't an ele or a necro, and wasn't meant to do the same things as an ele or a necro. So comparing them is not what you want to do. Instead, I would look at all the kick ass things that mesmer can do and an ele or necro cant, even if they aren't things like huge DPS or necro nuking.

The problem is that doing something best isn't good enough to deserve one of eight spots on a team -- you have do do something worthwhile and do it best. Huge DPS is worthwhile. AoE melee shutdown is worthwhile. Partywide damage prevention/reduction is worthwhile. Top-of-the-line interrupting is worthwhile. Fast and efficient healing is worthwhile. But a mesmer doesn't do any of these things as well as other classes. The things a mesmer does do better than other classes tend to either useless in PvE (e-denial) or only conditionally useful (heavy hex removal).

I remain hopeful that Fevered Dreams + Blinding Flash +Finish Him can be massaged into a top-of-the-line AoE-melee shutdown/indirect damage role. But that's about all I've seen worth looking into so far. Maaaaybe the SoI + Vangaurd Assassin builds might have a worthwhile DPS candidate among them (hint: look at what this thread is trying to do with splinter weapon and do it better... maybe with a particular curse spell...), but I'm not so hopeful here.

Quote:

What makes a mesmer, a mesmer is their ability to just flat annoy the heck out of the opposition, which in my opinion can be more valuable than huge damage and is especially more useful in team situations.

The monster AI is incapable of feeling annoyance. You cannot cause it to panic or act foolishly out of anger by being "annoying" to it.

draxynnic · Dec 14, 2007, 03:31 AM // 03:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liquid Wood

And to comment on the original intent of this discussion, a mesmer isn't an ele or a necro, and wasn't meant to do the same things as an ele or a necro. So comparing them is not what you want to do. Instead, I would look at all the kick ass things that mesmer can do and an ele or necro cant, even if they aren't things like huge DPS or necro nuking. What makes a mesmer, a mesmer is their ability to just flat annoy the heck out of the opposition, which in my opinion can be more valuable than huge damage and is especially more useful in team situations.

The problem is that there isn't anything a Mesmer can do that an Elementalist or Necro can't...

...by taking a Mesmer secondary.

It sounds silly, but as I explained in my post above, the important Mesmer skills, such as interruption, hex removal, and enchantment removal, are all fairly attribute-independent in their effect. Having one point less in the attribute isn't going to stop it from interrupting or removing a skill. If the Mesmer has a Necro or Ele secondary (most do...) or a build where the secondary isn't important, any Mesmer build would work just fine on an Ele or Necro with a Mesmer skillbar backed by their energy-supporting primary.

That Eles and Necros tend to have better things to do just shows that this isn't the only problem that the Mesmer suffers from (although I have heard of people using Souseke as a fake Mesmer until they got a real interruptor).

This is why I set the criteria as I did: either the build has to require an attribute higher than can be achieved off a Mesmer secondary, or the build has to benefit more from Fast Casting than it would from any other primary that could be used. (This implies that combining with something other than Elementalist or Necro might help - Monks and Ritualists have less generally-useful primaries, and any of the fighting classes are handicapped by a lower energy pool, although a Dervish may be able to fake it if there are a lot of enchantments involved.)

Don't get me wrong - my primary is a Mesmer, and I enjoy the Mesmer style of play. I just think I'm being realistic about what it would take for real Mesmers to be better than fake Mesmers (let alone those fake Mesmers doing what they're really good at) in a PvE role.

Painbringer · Dec 14, 2007, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

The problem is that there isn't anything a Mesmer can do that an Elementalist or Necro can't...

...by taking a Mesmer secondary.

Well Mesmers can copy any other classes’ elite at 16 attribute or any spell from any line. El and Necro can only get to 12

And a quote from an old movie (Spinal Tap)

Nigel: "...the numbers all go to eleven. Look, right across the board, 11, 11, 11, 11."
Marty: "Most amps go up to ten."
Nigel: "Exactly."
Marty: "Does that mean it's louder? Is it any louder?"
Nigel: "Well, it's one louder, isn't it? It's not ten. You see, most, most blokes gonna be playing at ten. You're on ten, all the way up, all the way up, all the way up."
Marty: "Yeah."
Nigel: "You're on ten on your guitar. Where can you go from there? Where?"
Marty: "I don't know."
Nigel: "Nowhere, exactly. What we do is if we need that extra push over the cliff, you know what we do?"
Marty: "Put it up to eleven."
Nigel: "Eleven. Exactly. One louder."
Marty: "Why don't you just make ten louder and make ten be the top number and make that a litte louder?"
Nigel: "These go to eleven."

Darkside · Dec 14, 2007, 03:38 PM // 15:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knight O Cydonia

Energy Surge
Empathy
Backfire
Guilt
Cry Of Pain
Power Drain
Necrosis
Res / Finish Him!

Interrupts, spammable damage, armour ignoring AoE, energy management all rolled into one.

This is very similar to the build I normally run on my mesmer and I've found it works great.

[skill]Energy Surge[/skill]
[skill]Empathy[/skill]
[skill]Backfire[/skill]
[skill]Cry of Pain[/skill]
[skill]Necrosis[/skill]

are the main skills in my build. The spike damage from E-Surge in combination with Cry of Pain is on par with anything an ele can do. The only problem is the downtime of those skills afterwards. Sixofone is right if they changed fast casting to also increase the recharge time of spells based on the amount of points you dump into that attribute it would make a huge difference in the effectiveness of Mesmers (tho I don't think they are as useless now as people seem to make them out to be).

glountz · Dec 14, 2007, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Fevered dream is good if you take a blinding surge-shell shock-enervating charge ele, an apply poison-screaming shot-BHA ranger, and a para with DWound and burning skills.

I use Mantra of recovery with Cry of Pain and Ether Nightmare.

And I generally go Illusion and take Every AoE spell (Soothing images, Arcane conundrum, wandering Eye).

Big Issue I find with mesmers is their so big recharges.

Dkraftwerk · Dec 14, 2007, 10:51 PM // 22:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorian Direspell

Posting for the 10k

General PvE build

Empathy, Spirit Shackles, Mantra of Recovery, Ether Feast, Power Drain or Energy Tap, Backfire or Power Spike, Open Slot, Res

Use Empathy and SS on non-boss physical attackers (warriors, assasins, rangers, dervishes, paragons (not as much paragons though)) . SS works especially well on shutting down assassins and dervishes that need energy to be dangerous (and which don't have absurd energy pools even at higher levels). Mantra allows you to spam empathy/SS. Use power drain or E-tap for energy recovery. Note that interrupts work better against casting bosses than a hex like Backfire would (because hexes expire quicker against bosses than ordinary enemies. Feel free to use the open slot for utility, defense, or whatever. You'll need high fast casting and domination, not as much in inspiration (ten seconds of SS will do the trick usually).

Shut down enemy casters and attackers, while doing nice amounts of armor ignoring damage. Mantra of Recovery really is great for PvE.

I actually use something very similar to this, and find it really flexible. I occasionally switch out for Energy Surge, and I'm always a fan of Conjure Phantasm or Conjure Nightmare, though I avoid Nightmare due to the high energy cost. Overall though I find that I blow through areas, missions, quests etc. with very little trouble.

draxynnic · Dec 17, 2007, 08:27 AM // 08:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Painbringer

Well Mesmers can copy any other classes’ elite at 16 attribute or any spell from any line. El and Necro can only get to 12

Which I'd actually mentioned in the post I made previous to that one. By the statement you were quoting, I was meaning that any role 'traditionally' filled by Mesmers can be so hijacked, leaving the Mesmer with the SoI (and maybe the Fevered Dreams) builds as their only fallbacks.

xrza88 · Dec 17, 2007, 04:39 PM // 16:39

One thing I would like to point out that I find funny is that people are obsessed with increasing DPS. Fair enough I guess. I started this game with a Mesmer primary and I think that people don't think of the flipside. Instead of looking for a Mesmer build to increase DPS which is what eles and warriors do ALL the time, I think it is crucial to think differently - reduce the enemies' DPS. Essentially the outcome is the same - widening the difference between your DPS and their DPS. You just take longer (or maybe not). Because there is no way a Mesmer is going to out-DPS an ele in the same time frame, but you could potentially create the SAME difference in DPS per time frame.

But this is all hypothetical.

I've been having difficulties dealing with mobs of PvE enemies with my mesmer (in Factions) so I've been looking for a build around this idea. (And I'd appreciate any inputs)

Debilitator =)

shared burden
+
shadow of fear
enfeeble
epidemic
confusing images
cry of frustration
+
power drain
leech signet

Illu 11
Curses 12
FC 6 or Insp 6 given that the longest casting time on these is 2 seconds (shadow of fear & shared burden)

Yes I know a rEAl necro could probably do this better. But I welcome any comments.

Edit: I might add that my mesmer has very little trouble in PvE unless there's a massive mob. Which is what hopefully this build will slow down. >.<

draxynnic · Dec 17, 2007, 11:16 PM // 23:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by xrza88

Yes I know a rEAl necro could probably do this better. But I welcome any comments.

That's what disqualifies your build.

The truth is, we're not just looking for a viable mesmer build. I think everyone who's participated in this thread knows builds that will get them through all four campaigns, at least in Normal Mode and probably in Hard Mode as well.

The issue is that we're looking for a role that the Mesmer can fill better than any other profession.

horseradish · Dec 19, 2007, 02:42 AM // 02:42

Mesmers can hinder the performance of opponents through snares, interrupts, and energy denial.

Unfortunately, e-denial and snares are pretty much useless in PvE, and interrupts fall short of brute force, especially in Factions and Nightfall.

Lord Nibiru · Dec 19, 2007, 04:29 PM // 16:29

Energy Burn
Enchanther's Conundrum
Shatter Delusions
Power Spike
Empathy
Backfire
Shatter Enchament
Glyph of a Lesser Energy

max domination and fast casting.
I didn't tried any PvE only skill in that build, but maybe Cry of the Pain would be good here,"Finish Him!" aswell,"You Move Like a Dwarf"

Mr Pink57 · Dec 24, 2007, 09:51 AM // 09:51

Power Spike/CoP
Power Drain
Hex Eater Vortex
Blackout
Empathy
Backfie
GoLE
Whatever

Some of these skills are what a lot if not most pve mes builds will carry. Your interrupt, Empathy, and Backfire there all just the basic skills taken. Also Lord no need to max FC you can go to 7 or 9 put rest into Inspiration for some more energy management.

A skill I did not like until I tried in Duncan with Blackout I just did not like my skills being disabled but it absolutely eats the touchers up and monks.

pink

You can't see me · Dec 26, 2007, 09:25 PM // 21:25

[skill]arcane echo[/skill][skill]ineptitude[/skill][skill]epidemic[/skill]

Win PvE.