Curse

Cathode_Reborn · Jun 22, 2008, 08:33 AM // 08:33

Recreated my mes...

[skill]Assassin's Promise[/skill][skill]"Finish Him!"[/skill][skill]Cry of Pain[/skill][skill]Ethereal Burden[/skill][skill]Wandering Eye[/skill][skill]Arcane Echo[/skill]

I'm way far from being able to actually run that (only lvl12), but it's what I plan on using eventually. Just an idea.

Echo CoP. Ethereal Burden is e-management. AP recharges all skills so you get double CoP on every target. Wandering Eye is more aoe.

Assuming ranks are max, 15 Illusion: 100 + 100 + 92 + 80 + Deep Wound, all being recharged instantly by AP. About 290 of that damage is aoe. At 12 deadly arts + Ethereal, you're getting 24e per kill.

Last PvE skill can be "You Move Like a Dwarf" for instacast damage + utility. Ebon Assassin is also very damaging.

upier · Jun 22, 2008, 08:51 AM // 08:51

Actually I don't see the point in running Arcane Mimicry when you can simply use Arcane Echo.
And considering how energy intensive this will be - I'd try to squeeze AI in there somewhere. It doesn't matter if your inspiration is low - just as long as you get back the energy to at least pay for the skill you just used. (Considering that my heroes manage to play with a 7-14-10-7 attribute distribution though - you'd should be getting 22 energy off a 15 energy spell.) Of course this is just my first impression - after you take it for a spin in the wild you'll see how much spells you actually do get off to see if you actually need more e-management.

=DNC=Trucker · Jun 22, 2008, 10:04 PM // 22:04

Another hint: The "finish him" becomes absolutely ridiculous with Fragility and a high rank in Norn. If you catch anyone under 50% health they are toast 99% of the time.

Try to get vanguard sin in there as well after your burden for a sweet snare/KD/spike combo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

And considering how energy intensive this will be - I'd try to squeeze AI in there somewhere.

I agree, I run something like this and with assassin promise you really need to be able to keep energy up. Things are recharging so quick that you need serious energy.

This is what I run and it works awesome, go try it on the 100 armor target in Isle to see how the e-management works perfect (regain 100% of your energy after each kill)

11 FC
15 Illusion
10 Deadly
1 Insp

Auspicious || Burden || Vang Sin || Fragility || COP || As Prom || Finish Him || Optional

Chthon · Jun 23, 2008, 12:26 AM // 00:26

1. I'm a little bit ahead of you on testing this idea out. My might take a look at this post for ideas. I'll post a bit ore after I've worked with the build some more. But for now I'm busy title grinding on my necro for the double weekend.

2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by =DNC=Trucker

Another hint: The "finish him" becomes absolutely ridiculous with Fragility and a high rank in Norn. If you catch anyone under 50% health they are toast 99% of the time.

I tried this. It does work, but you really don't have the attribute points available to make fragility particularly strong. edit: nvm, you shifted a whole bunch to illusion

3. Ethereal Burden as e-managment. Hmmm. On the plus side, it frees up a whole lot of attributes by making inspiration unnecessary. On the minus side, you are absolutely screwed if you don't land AP, since your e-management and your proc hex are going to be taking a long vacation in recharge land if you miss. Also, I'm pretty sure the energy gain of E.Burden can't keep up with auspicious. Still I'm tempted to try it out.

upier · Jun 23, 2008, 07:12 AM // 07:12

Btw - we had a bitch fight about something similar here:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10256142

And CD came up with this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

I had a muck around with upier's build last night though Echovald HM but tweeked it somewhat.
FC12+1+1, Dom 9+1, Ill 3+1, Deadly 9
[skill]phantom pain[/skill][skill]Assassin's Promise[/skill][Cry of Pain][skill]shatter delusions[/skill]

For the majority of the fight the rest of the bar didn't matter because whatever I was aimed had already fallen over and the combo could be started on the next red dot. After taking out 3-4 of the opposition, the remainder were almost dead from the AoE so I opted to round out the build with Finish Him, YMLAD and Energy Burn to mop up and stragglers and perstence of memory to protect the main combo against interrupts.

Doing 100 armour ignoring in the area damage every 2-3 seconds in addition to dropping a deep wound and targetted 60 was definitely effective enough to outclass any pure damage ele, and I'd put it only slightly behind a MB powered RI/PVE skill/Ward spamming ele in terms of desirabality.

(Of course I modify the attribute points allocation - no need for 14 in FC ...)

cellardweller · Jun 23, 2008, 08:16 AM // 08:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

(Of course I modify the attribute points allocation - no need for 14 in FC ...)

Because sleek masks get chicks

if I were still doing it today, it would be something like
[assassin's promise][phantom pain][auspicious incantation][arcane echo][cry of pain][shatter delusions][ether signet][pve skill]

=DNC=Trucker · Jun 23, 2008, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

I tried this. It does work, but you really don't have the attribute points available to make fragility particularly strong. edit: nvm, you shifted a whole bunch to illusion

Yeah, even 21 damage per condition isn't too much, but it has been growing on me lately now that its a cheap 5 energy

Especially if you have a weakness necro and/or SF ele those 21's start to add up with so many conditions getting flung around.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

3. Ethereal Burden as e-managment. Hmmm. On the plus side, it frees up a whole lot of attributes by making inspiration unnecessary. On the minus side, you are absolutely screwed if you don't land AP, since your e-management and your proc hex are going to be taking a long vacation in recharge land if you miss. Also, I'm pretty sure the energy gain of E.Burden can't keep up with auspicious. Still I'm tempted to try it out.

Using auspicious on burden (even with 3 points in Insp.) turned out to be an amazing source of energy. Burden by itself wasn't enough e-management for me.

I ended up ditching the arcane echo because 99% of the time AP recharges right before arcane echo switches back. What I end up with is echoed COP recharge then 2 seconds later it swaps back to arcane echo and you still end up with a 20 second recharge of AE. I just didn't get along with that oddity.

Not landing AP sucks, but I guess it doesn't really happen that often to be a problem - especially with "finish him". Cracked armor and deep wound on someone < 50% health is fatal unless your team is wiped.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

if I were still doing it today, it would be something like
[assassin's promise][phantom pain][auspicious incantation][arcane echo][cry of pain][shatter delusions][ether signet][pve skill]

I never thought of shatter and phantom in this build. I like that, especially if you like to use non-PVE-only skills. However, numerically speaking:
Phantom + Shatter = 2 slots, 15 energy, DW + 70 damage
Finish Him = 1 slot, 10 energy, DW + Cracked + 60-80 damage
What kind of attributes would you use with this? You need a decent amount in FC, a good amount in Dom for shatter, a little bit in Illusion for Phantom assuming you want DW to last more than 6 seconds, at least 9 in Deadly for AP, and some in Inspiration for Ausp+Ether. I like the idea of ether sig with AP though...

Chthon · Jun 24, 2008, 12:18 AM // 00:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by =DNC=Trucker

Using auspicious on burden (even with 3 points in Insp.) turned out to be an amazing source of energy. Burden by itself wasn't enough e-management for me.

I tried this out. The energy is just fine. I have a problem with the skill slot cost though. You end up needing a second sticky hex in case AP misses (usually fragility) as compared to using auspicious + conjure nightmare (with more inspiration and less illusion), where you can still use conjure to start your chain even if you missed AP.

Quote:

I ended up ditching the arcane echo because 99% of the time AP recharges right before arcane echo switches back. What I end up with is echoed COP recharge then 2 seconds later it swaps back to arcane echo and you still end up with a 20 second recharge of AE. I just didn't get along with that oddity.

The use AP to recharge arcane echo once it reverts

Quote:

Not landing AP sucks, but I guess it doesn't really happen that often to be a problem - especially with "finish him". Cracked armor and deep wound on someone < 50% health is fatal unless your team is wiped.

Except in cases of hex removal, I don't have a problem with casting AP too early. It's casting too late that's the problem. The warrior lets loose with eviscerate or something and suddenly my target is dead before I got AP up. This isn't a huge problem for the necro MoP-AP bomber (you just cast barbs on the next target and make sure to land that AP), but it's kinda bad for a mesmer. If you're relying on ethereal burden as your only sticky hex, you've just shut yourself down. Oops. If you're relying on conjure nightmare, you're not shut down, but you can't afford to miss more than once because CN is so expensive without auspicious getting recharged.

Quote:

I never thought of shatter and phantom in this build. I like that, especially if you like to use non-PVE-only skills. However, numerically speaking:
Phantom + Shatter = 2 slots, 15 energy, DW + 70 damage
Finish Him = 1 slot, 10 energy, DW + Cracked + 60-80 damage
What kind of attributes would you use with this? You need a decent amount in FC, a good amount in Dom for shatter, a little bit in Illusion for Phantom assuming you want DW to last more than 6 seconds, at least 9 in Deadly for AP, and some in Inspiration for Ausp+Ether. I like the idea of ether sig with AP though...

I agree that Finish Him > Phantom + Shatter/Drain. I'm also a little bit puzzled on how to come up with enough attributes to make that build work.

Query:
Clumsiness vs Wandering Eye. What do you think? WE has a bigger AoE. Clumisness stops more attacks.

zelgadissan · Jun 24, 2008, 12:54 AM // 00:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Query:
Clumsiness vs Wandering Eye. What do you think? WE has a bigger AoE. Clumisness stops more attacks.

I personally switch mine around depending on if the area in question is melee-heavy or balanced/caster-heavy. Melee-heavy: [Clumsiness]; anything else: [Wandering Eye]. Ideally I like to have both actually.

I would probably try something like:
[build prof=Me/A name="Promiser" IllusionMagic=10+1+1 FastCasting=8+1 InspirationMagic=9+1 DeadlyArts=9][Assassin's Promise][Auspicious Incantation][Arcane Echo][Cry of Pain][Fragility][Clumsiness][Finish Him!][Sunspear Rebirth Signet][/build]

If that wouldn't work energy wise I'd probably ditch Fragility and Finish Him for Wandering Eye and Ether Signet.

cellardweller · Jun 24, 2008, 01:58 AM // 01:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by =DNC=Trucker

I never thought of shatter and phantom in this build. I like that, especially if you like to use non-PVE-only skills. However, numerically speaking:
Phantom + Shatter = 2 slots, 15 energy, DW + 70 damage
Finish Him = 1 slot, 10 energy, DW + Cracked + 60-80 damage
What kind of attributes would you use with this? You need a decent amount in FC, a good amount in Dom for shatter, a little bit in Illusion for Phantom assuming you want DW to last more than 6 seconds, at least 9 in Deadly for AP, and some in Inspiration for Ausp+Ether. I like the idea of ether sig with AP though...

Phantom is there to satisfy the "under a mesmer hex" condition of CoP, which finish him doesn't do.

I'd run the build with Domination 10+2, Inspiration 9+1, Fastcast 8+1, Deadly 9, Illusion 3+1. You don't need the DW to last at all, if you're taking 6 seconds to kill your target, then you're missing the point of an AP build.

Chthon · Jun 24, 2008, 08:06 AM // 08:06

Teehee

[assassin's promise][signet of recall][ether signet]

More energy than I know what to do with.

=DNC=Trucker · Jun 25, 2008, 12:15 AM // 00:15

That's cool, certainly would be a nice energy engine - does anyone have good experience with using Ether Signet in an AP build like this? I think it would be tedious to always pay attention to the "if energy is less than 9" part.

On another note, has anyone found anything good in Deadly Arts to use? I've looked through skills but nothing caught my eye...

Chthon · Jun 25, 2008, 02:12 AM // 02:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by =DNC=Trucker

That's cool, certainly would be a nice energy engine - does anyone have good experience with using Ether Signet in an AP build like this? I think it would be tedious to always pay attention to the "if energy is less than 9" part.

1. With signet of recall, you hardly need ether signet.

2. With signet of recall, your regen is stopped, so it's very easy to tell if you're under 9 or whatever.

Quote:

On another note, has anyone found anything good in Deadly Arts to use? I've looked through skills but nothing caught my eye...

Nothing's great. Mark of Death is probably the best one in there.

zelgadissan · Jun 25, 2008, 02:15 AM // 02:15

Anything good? Ha! No. BUT if I were forced to find a skill or two I'd probably look at [Mark of Death] to help with making sure my AP isn't wasted.

Also when I tried running my variant of the build through THK last night my energy NEVER hit low enough to where I'd need Ether Signet. Mursaat don't have crap on Finish Him.

upier · Jun 25, 2008, 07:49 AM // 07:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Nothing's great. Mark of Death is probably the best one in there.

The problem?
The reduced healing cap. DW reduces healing by 20% while also delivering that 100 damage. Mark of Death just reduces healing by 33%.
Which just makes MoD obsolete.

I LOVE Deadly Arts - but there is just nothing there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Teehee
[signet of recall][ether signet]
More energy than I know what to do with.

The problem with this is that you need to invest into Inspiration. Massively if you actually want results.
AI requires next to 0 investment.

Chthon · Jun 25, 2008, 06:34 PM // 18:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The problem?
The reduced healing cap. DW reduces healing by 20% while also delivering that 100 damage. Mark of Death just reduces healing by 33%.
Which just makes MoD obsolete.

I LOVE Deadly Arts - but there is just nothing there.

I agree. There's nothing worthwhile in deadly arts for this build. I was just saying that Mark of Death is the least bad.

Quote:

The problem with this is that you need to invest into Inspiration. Massively if you actually want results.
AI requires next to 0 investment.

AFIAK, the best you can do with AI is to use conjure nightmare as your proc hex for CoP, and lead it every time with AI. (Using anything other than your proc hex to feed AI is going to slow down your CoP spamming unacceptably.) That means that you get to use AI once per kill (assuming you land AP every time) and you are spending 15e to do it, 5e for AI and 10e to use CN instead of fragility. Given that, the actual gains from AI are:
0: 1e/kill
1: 2e/kill
2: 3e/kill
3: 4e/kill
4: 5e/kill
5: 6e/kill
6: 7e/kill
7: 7e/kill
8: 8e/kill
9: 9e/kill
10: 10e/kill
11: 11e/kill
12: 12e/kill
I can't imagine going higher than 12 insp for this build.

Signet of recall is a little more complicated. If you're taking 10+ sec per kill, it's a simple linear increase due to casting more frequently. But, once you start killing fast enough that you're casting it again before it expires, the second copy is giving you a full energy payout, but not causing a full 10 sec of degen. Here's the energy payout at 10+sec/kill, 7.5 sec/kill, and 5sec/kill:
0-1: -.33e/kill, 3e/kill, 6.33e/kill
2-3: .66e/kill, 4e/kill, 7.33e/kill
4-5: 1.6e/kill, 5e/kill, 8.33e/kill
6-7: 2.6e/kill, 6e/kill, 9.33e/kill
8-9: 3.6e/kill, 7e/kill, 10.33e/kill
10-11: 4.6e/kill, 8e/kill, 11.33e/kill
12-13: 5.6e/kill, 9e/kill, 12.33e/kill

This is the exact opposite of what you said. At low rank, with fast killing, Signet of Recall outperforms AI; but at high rank, AI performs better.

That said, I'm a little stumped as to why Signet of Recall feels like I've got a lot more energy available, even at high rank. I do double, and sometimes triple, it up sometimes, but there's also a lot of times when I'm not getting kills quickly enough to reliably double it up and I'm still swimming in energy. Perhaps it's the off-by-one effect of SigOfRecall getting a free cast before each battle while AI doesn't?.... Perhaps the hidden cost of restarting the chain with CN without AI if you're late on AP?... I dunno, I need to experiment some more I think.

upier · Jun 25, 2008, 08:54 PM // 20:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Signet of recall is a little more complicated. If you're taking 10+ sec per kill, it's a simple linear increase due to casting more frequently. But, once you start killing fast enough that you're casting it again before it expires, the second copy is giving you a full energy payout, but not causing a full 10 sec of degen.

It didn't even hit me it's working like that!
The only problem was that the energy gain happened at completely random times (after 10 secs - which meant that most of it was wasted) - rather then when I needed the energy most (in the middle of the chain). But considering I was pretty much swimming in full energy the whole time - it's not REALLY that big of a deal.

Nice info - thanks!

Shadow Slave · Jun 26, 2008, 10:44 AM // 10:44

Havn't tried this build yet, but [skill]Augury of Death[/skill] is just dam smexy in most builds of this type.

Shame about the casting range I suppose...and the fact that you may well end up being teleported into the middle of a mob......buuuut when you look past all that, it's dam hot.

Very much looking forward to trying this build out.

DarkSpirit · Jun 26, 2008, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Looks similar to the build I posted:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...99#post3857022

Vazze · Jun 26, 2008, 05:13 PM // 17:13

I would try to score the kill as soon as I can and nuke again with a fresh CoP instead of nuking twice /cycle. Double CoP has huge energy cost and needs serious e-management + with all the preparation leading to the 2nd CoP (AI+AE), it is slow, the double CoP comes after 6-7s(!!!) (a single high DPS character can kill a target in 6-7s, not to mention a good team, which means you can easily loose your trigger hex and you can't even nuke...)
But if you finish your target in 5s with quick high damage skills (using only one CoP) , you can trigger AP more often =>> more CoP/more energy.