Curse

Ichigo724 · Jul 24, 2008, 10:17 PM // 22:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

you mean like a ele boss?

If you take a mesmer and a few other near-useful characters, indeed, the ele boss outdpses you. "SY!" is 82%+ damage reduction. If you take a RAEP team with a "SY!" and monk as your defense, he won't do jack.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

O ok hope you can see how i misunderstood what you said.

still there are many ways you can deal with 4 enemies "types" guessing you mean melee, caster, pressure and healing? of you want to call that a type, and theres many many ways you can kill them, just pick 1 :P

You're still missing it, there's 4 normal enemies (non-bosses) with the skill protective spirit on their bar. In the entire game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

why "rape" 2 secs faster, when i can save my team form getting damaged even more.

Again, "SY!" = "lol, what damage?"

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

yes that was the point, a good player can make up for it with his/her skills as a player. Im not saying they need to run crappy bars or even do, but can make up for it cause they are just good at the game other than your avg ursan noob that things AB is to hard.

An average player does better with a good bar than with a bad bar. A good player does better with a good bar than with a bad bar as well. He may be better with the bad bar than the average player with the good bar, but he's still better with a good bar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

thats the point i was trying to make. Somethings work in areas better than others

Damage works in all areas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

yes it can, off the top of my head, A echo it in a heavy melee area and take a lot of air eles or other non aoe spells or something and focus fire, if you do it right you dont even need a monk. Just saying and thats just something i came out with in 5 secs.

Inferior to LOLAoERAPE.

JDRyder · Jul 24, 2008, 11:54 PM // 23:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ichigo724

If you take a mesmer and a few other near-useful characters, indeed, the ele boss outdpses you. "SY!" is 82%+ damage reduction. If you take a RAEP team with a "SY!" and monk as your defense, he won't do jack.

SY does not do any thing when they have things like [Energy Surge] or other armor bypassing skills, or mass degen, I was helping some 1 do HoS in HM last night and id killed for a mesmer with [Mirror of Disenchantment]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ichigo724

You're still missing it, there's 4 normal enemies (non-bosses) with the skill protective spirit on their bar. In the entire game.

I dont only rely on enchants, in a lot of hard mode areas they have enchant removal

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ichigo724

Again, "SY!" = "lol, what damage?"

again, a lot of things bypass armor and than its useless

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ichigo724

An average player does better with a good bar than with a bad bar. A good player does better with a good bar than with a bad bar as well. He may be better with the bad bar than the average player with the good bar, but he's still better with a good bar.

no shit?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ichigo724

Damage works in all areas.

never said it didnt

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ichigo724

Inferior to LOLAoERAPE.

so you only play ursan?

around · Jul 25, 2008, 07:24 AM // 07:24

Note to the clueless: ursan is not the only source of AoE.

Shadow Slave · Jul 25, 2008, 02:11 PM // 14:11

This thread is full of win. How have I managed to miss it for so long?

JDR and Magikarp have contradicted themselves so many times it has become quite difficult to establish a solid argument against their (more so JDRs) ignorance.

Dead enemies is the ultimate goal in PVE, yes? Spec to kill them faster and you win PVE faster. Simple.

Shutdown via Mesmer skills sounds fantastic on paper, but doesn't draw away from the fact that the ultimate form of shutdown is death.

Fast Casting again sounds great on paper - "Woohoo, I can churn out my skills faster" .....but when was the last time someone said 'Quick, invite that Mesmer, he has Fast Casting!!' ?

Giving people a reason to use that line is something which needs to be, and has been, discussed. Lets just hope it's implemented.

~ Before JDR jumps in with this point, Yes, people dont say 'Quick invite that Warrior! He has Strength!' etc....but the fact is that this, and a significant number of other alternative primary attributes contribute considerably more so to the 'ultimate PVE goal' - i.e. Kills - leaving FC (and therefore Mesmers) in the dust.

(Again not saying that Mesmers cant pwn in PVE - just not via 'shutdown')

-Shad

DarkSpirit · Jul 25, 2008, 04:12 PM // 16:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow Slave

This thread is full of win. How have I managed to miss it for so long?

JDR and Magikarp have contradicted themselves so many times it has become quite difficult to establish a solid argument against their (more so JDRs) ignorance.

This is why I got tried of posting in this thread. When someone insists that it is better to kill as slow as possible, that is when the argument starts becoming ridiculous.

And by the way, FC is not great as a primary attribute also because other professions can EASILY get faster cast through other means. 40/40 set for one, and Essence of Celerity another, and [[Mindbender], etc.

Vazze · Jul 25, 2008, 09:07 PM // 21:07

Theoretically JDR is right, GW was designed with shutdown: the right amount of skillful shutdown is more efficient than prot/heal damage and safer than out-damaging your enemy....in pvp. However, in PvE most mobs are not even close to challenging, because the AI is dumb, mob skillbar sux, mob teambuild sux: the bodyblock from minionarmy and two healers can easily keep you alive and the more damage you have, the faster it is to massacre them, because that's what PvE is: massacre.

If you go to the so called "elite areas", theoretically shutdown characters could be useful, but it is even more useful to bring imba PVE skills/builds (imbagon),...and practically: ursan is faster and easier than anything else, so unfortunately: shutdown is inferior, mesmer is inferior, fast casting is inferior.

JDRyder · Jul 26, 2008, 02:49 AM // 02:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by around

Note to the clueless: ursan is not the only source of AoE.

hes trying to say "why use something if its Inferior" and seeing how every thing is Inferior to ursan atm does that mean he only uses ursan?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow Slave

Dead enemies is the ultimate goal in PVE, yes? Spec to kill them faster and you win PVE faster. Simple.

yes but the more Damage you add the % of the over all time it takes to kill you target goes down and mesmers etc become more useful than the 6% decrease in time it takes to kill the target

Eg
1000 damage kills something in 10secs
2000 damage kills something in 5secs, 50% faster
4000 damage kills something in 2.5secs, +25% faster "75% faster then 1k dps"
8000 damage kills something in 1.25secs, +12.5% faster "87.5% faster then 1k"
16000 damage kills something in 0.625secs, +6.25% faster "93.75% faster then 1k"
32000 damage kills something 0.3125secs, +3.125% faster "96.875% faster then 1k"
etc

once you get passed 8k damage the numbers drop to next to nothing, making damage LESS effective and its better to take 1 or 2 defense char at that point, defense chars being necros, paras, mesmers, hammer wars, earth eles etc

Now if you add a Defense char, you can cut down the damage taken by more than half and save you monk energy "meaning your team can get in there and do more dps w/o having to stop" etc etc.

so whats more worth it? a 6% decrease in the time it takes to kill something or a 50%-100+% decrease in the damage your team will take?

around · Jul 26, 2008, 02:53 AM // 02:53

...

Imbagon has pro defense (before you say SY doesn't work against armour ignoring damage, pretty sure TNTF does).

Also, those provide banket coverage, while mesmer 'shutdown' only works against 1 specific foe.

JDRyder · Jul 26, 2008, 03:01 AM // 03:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by around

...

Imbagon has pro defense (before you say SY doesn't work against armour ignoring damage, pretty sure TNTF does).

Also, those provide banket coverage, while mesmer 'shutdown' only works against 1 specific foe.

yea if you suck at mesmer, its easy to shut down a few mods with only interrupts,

interrupts also take 100% of the skills damage, TNTF only takes 35% for 4 secs, every 20secs and cost 15E

around · Jul 26, 2008, 03:55 AM // 03:55

Can you interrupt ele bosses 1 sec skills?

upier · Jul 26, 2008, 07:39 AM // 07:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

TNTF only takes 35% for 4 secs, every 20secs and cost 15E

That's because you took a mesmer instead of a paragon.

JDRyder · Jul 26, 2008, 08:58 AM // 08:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by around

Can you interrupt ele bosses 1 sec skills?

[guilt] + 40/40 set

123456

Shaz · Jul 26, 2008, 10:20 AM // 10:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

TNTF only takes 35% for 4 secs, every 20secs and cost 15E

Quote:

Originally Posted by Upier

That's because you took a mesmer instead of a paragon.

Yep. If you take a paragon, it would be 10 secs every 20 secs, net cost of 9e. While it only take 35% off, it's 35% off for all damage from every foes for 10 secs. Compare to your single target interrupts, it isn't anywhere near the usefulness of TNTF. Plus if you want interrupt, a dazed target and a few physicals pounding on it is better, there isn't many condition removal in PvE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

[guilt] + 40/40 set

123456

Why would you use guilt? It's a 2 seconds cast (yes, i know i didn't take into account of FC and 40/40 set) and isn't suppose to use to interrupt. And correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it just like Shame in that the skill fail then lose energy but can still cast it again? AI have high energy pool and regen, so something that actually interrupt is better imo.

Mesmer just don't offers much in PvE where priority target die so quickly making shutdown skill like diversion, shame, etc not necessary most of the time. They can interrupt but ranger can do it better with dazed for single target shutdown, and dshot and savage shot here and there. Even so, most ranger in PvE build are usually damage with just dshot(because it is such a godly skill) in there, unless you know you'll have to shutdown something with dazed, interrupt just isn't necessary in PvE most of the time. Another thing that can stop you from killing priority targets that a mesmer can help speed up are enchantments. But then Necros can do it better with Corrupt, Rip, and Rend and other useful skill in the Curse line. Mesmer can also degen but ranger can do it better, and degen isn't the best way to kill stuffs in PvE.

Mesmer just don't have many useful build in PvE aside from the CoP + other damage skills spam build. Back on topic, their primary attribute don't offer something that as broken or as good as other primary. Mesmer, right now, are subpar compare to other classes when you look at the way you should play in PvE.

DarkSpirit · Jul 26, 2008, 01:50 PM // 13:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

[guilt] + 40/40 set

123456

First of all, your 40/40 set is not guaranteed to fire all the time, otherwise it would be called 100/100 set. Second, Guilt has a very long recharge and it is actually not an interrupt because it allows the failed spell to be recast right away while itself goes through a 25s recharge. Third, Guilt doesn't stop non-spell skills or skills that heal their allies. Fourth, stealing that small amount of energy from PvE monsters really doesn't deter them much since they have an extra +1 energy regen more than their corresponding players.

zelgadissan · Jul 26, 2008, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Guilt, seriously? If you're gonna use one of those types of skills (Guilt, Mistrust, Shame), the PvE answer is [Mistrust]. And that's with a keyword of if.

Shadow Slave · Jul 28, 2008, 11:29 AM // 11:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

yes but the more Damage you add the % of the over all time it takes to kill you target goes down and mesmers etc become more useful than the 6% decrease in time it takes to kill the target

once you get passed 8k damage the numbers drop to next to nothing, making damage LESS effective and its better to take 1 or 2 defense char at that point, defense chars being necros, paras, mesmers, hammer wars, earth eles etc

Now if you add a Defense char, you can cut down the damage taken by more than half and save you monk energy "meaning your team can get in there and do more dps w/o having to stop" etc etc.

so whats more worth it? a 6% decrease in the time it takes to kill something or a 50%-100+% decrease in the damage your team will take?

Can you stop pulling these imaginery figures out off nowhere to 'support' your arguement.

As already stated, there are a number of factors you are failing to take into account (which I am not going to bother going through again...) which mean that your X amount of raw damage doesnt convert directly into the same amount of damage dealt.

To compensate for Armor/Healing/ etc etc..and achieve the most efficient kill rate, you need to bring more that the 'required' damage.

I love playing shutdown as much as the next guy, but the simple fact is that PVE rarely requires shutdown. Among other things which have again already been listed, NPCs dont have the same energy pool as Human players, the same reaction time etc.

The good Mesmer skills are tailored for PVP, with few exceptions...(please dont bother trying to list some)...

If we take your imaginery figure of '6% longer to kill something'....the point is, that if you had killed the enemy that 6% faster, we wouldnt have even needed your Shame/Guilt/Mistrust etc - which has now been wasted and is sitting in recharge.

The vast majority of Mesmer skills also focus on one target, yes there are exceptions...but AOE damage, Melee Chars choosing seperate targets etc. etc..can lead to the death (and therefore shutdown) of a number of Enemies at once.

You are assuming that in that '6% window' you have successfully managed to somehow disrupt anything and everything that the enemy was hoping to achieve...saving your monk some energy?

Since you are clearly not going to disrupt everything that enemy was going to do (maybe because the majority of your skills are still recharging *Hello Power Drain*) - your subsequent 'wanding the enemy to death while you wait' isnt going to do all too much good.

So....6% window where you hope interupt everything, thus saving your team from all harm.....orrrr would it not be better for that enemy to have died '6%' ago - - - Hows your energy Mr Monk?

Cebe · Jul 30, 2008, 01:48 PM // 13:48

This thread has gone so off-the-plot.