Curse

Avarre · Jul 18, 2008, 08:23 AM // 08:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Lotus-

JD, is there some reason for keeping your enemies alive and shutdown that i dont get? you dont seem to understand that dead enemies are very effectively shut down.

Arguing with this is a pretty quick way to lose credibility.

-Lotus- · Jul 18, 2008, 08:38 AM // 08:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

let me put it this way if you had to do 2000 damage to kill every thing why take 10,000 damage?

if you had to do 2000 damage to kill everything you could do it in no time. more damaging characters put down more damage faster.

JDRyder · Jul 18, 2008, 09:40 AM // 09:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Lotus-

if you had to do 2000 damage to kill everything you could do it in no time. more damaging characters put down more damage faster.

no cause they are going to be dead before 8000 of that damage even hits.

also more damage does not mean things die faster. If you do it right and THINK about what your doing things die just as fast and theres a limit on how fast your going to be able to kill things even with nothing but damage and no monks. With a lot of damage sure things may die 2 secs faster but its not worth it really when you can have 3 or 4 damage with defense, something that helps monks and makes your team stronger and basically never die not matter what happens

Turbobusa · Jul 18, 2008, 09:59 AM // 09:59

hu lol fighting the same team with 10k dmg IS going to kill faster than the 2k one.
bigger damage means I can aggro like mad and things will still die in seconds. I've tested the 2N/rt discord team and another I made with a lot more damage.
Aggroed groups after groups, no problem with the damage team, about to break for the more defensive team, and it took much longer to kill.

upier · Jul 18, 2008, 10:24 AM // 10:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

no cause they are going to be dead before 8000 of that damage even hits.

And what's wrong with that?
The problem would be present if dishing out 10k damage and wasting 8k of it would cause that you aren't able to dish out 10k damage on your next group of foes again.

It's not needed?
It sure as hell isn't doing any harm!

JDRyder · Jul 18, 2008, 10:30 AM // 10:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbobusa

hu lol fighting the same team with 10k dmg IS going to kill faster than the 2k one.
bigger damage means I can aggro like mad and things will still die in seconds. I've tested the 2N/rt discord team and another I made with a lot more damage.
Aggroed groups after groups, no problem with the damage team, about to break for the more defensive team, and it took much longer to kill.

I never said a team only had 2k Damage i said you only need 2k damage to kill every thing. I made a graph to show how over DPS is bad a few post back and Ive tested this over the years. I did need to word my post about the team with 10k damage better tho. If you have 6 players that do 10k damage with their bars, thats 1666.67 damage per char, having 3 or 4 of them is all you need to kill thing just as fast. If players 1-6 start doing damage most likely every thing will die before they use many of their skills "keep in mind players cant do the type of damage we are talking about in GW in the amount of team we are talking about" things will die before they use most their skills and you may as well just have empty slots. Now if you take out only 3-4 damage dealers they will use most of their skills and thing will still die before they get to use them all

the discord builds also have defensive skill like enfeebling blood, something i also use a lot and takes that 90damage hit from a melee NPC down to nothing. The discord builds are just another way to do things and are also made for hero's. What works for heros does not always work for real plays and what works for players does not always work for heros

More DPS does may mean you kill things a 2 secs faster but it also means you die faster.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

And what's wrong with that?
The problem would be present if dishing out 10k damage and wasting 8k of it would cause that you aren't able to dish out 10k damage on your next group of foes again.

It's not needed?
It sure as hell isn't doing any harm!

skills will be recharged by than and if you'd read about 5-10 post back you'd know why all that DPS is a wast

upier · Jul 18, 2008, 01:00 PM // 13:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

skills will be recharged by than and if you'd read about 5-10 post back you'd know why all that DPS is a wast

You mean the post where you had shown that team A will kill twice as fast?

rebirthofdragon · Jul 18, 2008, 03:43 PM // 15:43

If we compare the primary attributes, and not the other attributes, of the caster classes (4 pips of regen) we need to make some assumptions:
1) This comparison is in the context of PvE, where enemies wait for you to aggro them.
2) A caster's role is to cast spells with the goal of giving their party an advantage in combat.
3) The following is what one wants to happen to an enemy in PvE in order from most to least preferable:
Dead > Hurting itself and enemies around it > Made less effective > Nothing > Made more effective

Now, let's compare the primary caster attributes at 12:

Divine Favor (Monk): If we assume that a dedicated healer can get about 20 points of healing per point of energy (16 Healing Prayers), then every time a monk casts a spell on an ally, they will get about 1.9 energy worth of utility. In essence, monks get the effect of spending 7 energy, but only spend 5. This effect is even more significant with fewer points in healing prayers and more in Divine Favor. ENERGY MANAGEMENT

Soul Reaping (Necromancer): Every time something dies a necro gains 12 energy, up to 36 every 15 seconds. I don't think that anything needs to be said here. In essence you get free energy for doing what you want to be doing anyway. This ability is slightly offset by the fact that sometimes many enemies will die at nearly the same time. ENERGY MANAGEMENT

Energy Storage (Elementalist): The ele has an extra 36 energy to cast spells. As a result, during combat you are able to cast an additional 2-3 of your most powerful spells. Although this larger pool takes longer to refill, this is not a problem in PvE where you can wait before aggroing a group. Spells cost proportionally less, because you have more energy (i.e. a 25 energy spell is as expensive to an ele with 100 energy as a 10 energy spell is to someone with 40 energy). ENERGY MANAGEMENT

Spawning Power (Ritualist): The rit's weapon spells last 24% longer and summoned creatures are 48% harder to kill. This equates to a substantial gain in utility to many of your spells. For weapon spells, this means that you are recasting about 24% less often (casting 5 times or 4 times to last the same duration), thus saving energy. Similarly, you are able to squeeze more utility out of your spirits and summons (though, I would argue, not as much as). ENERGY MANAGEMENT

Mysticism (Dervish): The derv gains 12 health and 4 energy every time an enchantment ends end on the derv. Although I would argue that the health is negligible, the 4 energy is VERY significant. Not only do your enchantments essentially cost less, but you gain energy any time an enchantment cast on you by an ally ends. The downside is that the enchantment must end before you benefit, but this also means that as soon as it ends, you'll have energy to do something else. ENERGY MANAGEMENT

Fast Casting (Mesmer): The mes casts spells in 57% of their casting time and activates signets in 64% of their activation time. This means that once you get into a battle, you'll be able to get off all your spells considerably faster. This is especially useful for long-lasting effects that are best applied before battle or for spells that need to get in before a specific event, such as many interrupts. This is also excellent for casting many spells in quick succession in what might be called a spike. SPIKING

In essence all primary attributes do one of three things: make skills more energy efficient (Warriors do more damage, Rangers' cost less, Monks heal more, Ritualists' last longer, Experimentalists simply have more energy so spells cost "proportionally" less), give a return on energy used (Necromancers gain benefit once their spells kill, Dervishes gain benefit when the enchantment they cast ends, Paragons gain energy for every party memeber their skill affect, and Assassins gain energy for attacking more), or allow for spiking (Mesmers).

The obvious problem is that Mesmers are the only ones without inherent energy management and need to use up skill slots to be able to do what other professions do with just attribute points. While spiking is excellent in PvP, is less effective in PvE where there are more enemies and they have much more HP. Furthermore, most skills chosen for spiking already have fast casting times.

This leads me to conclude that, in PvE, the Mesmer's primary attribute of Fast Casting is effectively inferior to all other caster attributes. To improve it, I would recommend amending it to benefit the Mesmer for playing it's part (i.e. gain energy when a hex expires/spell fails; increase hex duration; make spells that target foes cheaper) or augmenting it to do something universally useful but that other professions can't do without skills (i.e. decrease recharge of spells).

That's my two cents.

DarkSpirit · Jul 18, 2008, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

I never said a team only had 2k Damage i said you only need 2k damage to kill every thing. I made a graph to show how over DPS is bad a few post back and Ive tested this over the years. I did need to word my post about the team with 10k damage better tho. If you have 6 players that do 10k damage with their bars, thats 1666.67 damage per char, having 3 or 4 of them is all you need to kill thing just as fast. If players 1-6 start doing damage most likely every thing will die before they use many of their skills "keep in mind players cant do the type of damage we are talking about in GW in the amount of team we are talking about" things will die before they use most their skills and you may as well just have empty slots. Now if you take out only 3-4 damage dealers they will use most of their skills and thing will still die before they get to use them all

This is crazy, this is the first time I have seen someone trying so hard to justify having too high a DPS in PvE is a bad thing. Maybe we should all switch to 2-4 damage weapons now so we can tickle the monsters in HM to death.

First of all, you did not take monster heals into account. Many monsters in HM have self heals as well as monk monsters to heal them. Second, you did not take HM bosses into account, which can take alot more damage especially with heals. Third, you did not take resurrections into account as some monsters have res sigs. And there are many other holes in your over simplified assumptions.

Killing things fast reduces pressure on your monks since your team would take lesser damage. As long as you make sure that your team has adequate defense, you should then focus on pumping DPS as high as possible. There is no such problem as having too high a DPS. A strong offense in pve is also good defense, too bad you cant see that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaz

Yes, shutting something down for 14 secs is good, but compare to pure damage it's meh in PvE. Yes, you can Diversion, etc. on AI easier than in PvP because AI are dumb and will cast through it, but it is more useful to just kill it and shutdown it whole skill bar.

Shutdown and degen/hexes pressure are more useful in PvP where targets are smarter and battle last a long time. For PvE, pure damage is the best because you can easily out damage them.

....

Mesmers are not useless and has no place in PvE, they do damage just fine, though buffing them a bit wouldn't hurt for PvE. For PvE, after your build has adequate defense you should concentrate the rest of the build on pure damage.

QFT

JDRyder · Jul 18, 2008, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Ok lets say you a player does 1k damage, and can do it all in 10 secs, you only need 1k damage to kill every thing

8 players 8000 damage 800 DPS every thing dies in 1.25 secs
4 players 4000 damage 400 DPS every thing dies in 2.5 secs
2 players 2000 damage 200 DPS every thing dies in 5 secs
1 player 1000 damage 100 DPS every thing dies in 10 secs

the more damage you add the slower and slower your over all time will become but not by much each time after you have 4 players doing damage, and there's not a big reason why that .50 secs is any better with 6 damage dealers, theres a point where it will just seem to stop going down and theres even less of a reason for adding more damage. I think other than wasting time on more damage to get less of a effect it better to just stop at a point and just use the other slots in your team for something that will have more of a effect.

I never said DAMAGE is bad thats why half of my team does damage, but i do think to much damage is bad cause you can use 2 of the team slots for chars for more defense for the team and can cut the damage taken down by more than half. Even a MM is a form of defense cause the damage is done to the minions not your team and it can be used to add damage, but you cant always use MMs in some areas,

zwei2stein · Jul 18, 2008, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

I never said DAMAGE is bad thats why half of my team does damage, but i do think to much damage is bad cause you can use 2 of the team slots for chars for more defense for the team and can cut the damage taken down by more than half. Even a MM is a form of defense cause the damage is done to the minions not your team and it can be used to add damage, but you cant always use MMs in some areas,

Fail.

You can use 6 people for damage AS WELL AS defense and pump both at 100% at same time.

Overall result? More damage, More defence. There are no compromises to be made.

DarkSpirit · Jul 18, 2008, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

Ok lets say you a player does 1k damage, and can do it all in 10 secs, you only need 1k damage to kill every thing

8 players 8000 damage 800 DPS every thing dies in 1.25 secs
4 players 4000 damage 400 DPS every thing dies in 2.5 secs
2 players 2000 damage 200 DPS every thing dies in 5 secs
1 player 1000 damage 100 DPS every thing dies in 10 secs

the more damage you add the slower and slower your over all time will become but not by much each time after you have 4 players doing damage, and there's not a big reason why that .50 secs is any better with 6 damage dealers, theres a point where it will just seem to stop going down and theres even less of a reason for adding more damage. I think other than wasting time on more damage to get less of a effect it better to just stop at a point and just use the other slots in your team for something that will have more of a effect.

That example is a failure and is not realistic because you not proving anything. 1 player is not going to kill everything using a solo build within 10sec unless he is in a low level area or using a farming build. If he is in a low level area, you dont need 8 people. If he is using a solo farming build in a high level area, he is certainly not going to kill everything very quickly.

Furthermore, the reality is, in a HM team scenario, you should be killing as fast as you can and you just made a point that higher DPS would allow you to kill faster. And you are trying to justify that killing too fast is bad. Why?

In your previous posts you were saying that it is fun to kill slowly so that your mesmer has the time to use interrupts and shutdowns in pve. Doh...maybe for you.

Quote:

i do think to much damage is bad cause you can use 2 of the team slots for chars for more defense for the team and can cut the damage taken down by more than half.

If you already have enough defense to stay alive, why add more overkill defenses, just so you can kill slower? You are not making any sense to your arguments.

Quote:

Even a MM is a form of defense cause the damage is done to the minions not your team and it can be used to add damage, but you cant always use MMs in some areas,

An MM is both offense and defense. This is why minion bombers with a curse necro using barbs are popular.

JDRyder · Jul 18, 2008, 09:42 PM // 21:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

That example is a failure and is not realistic because you not proving anything. 1 player is not going to kill everything using a solo build within 10sec unless he is in a low level area or using a farming build. If he is in a low level area, you dont need 8 people. If he is using a solo farming build in a high level area, he is certainly not going to kill everything very quickly.

They are just numbers to make the math easier, If you changed the numbers what you'd do in game its still going to be basically the same just not as rounded

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Furthermore, the reality is, in a HM team scenario, you should be killing as fast as you can and you just made a point that higher DPS would allow you to kill faster. And you are trying to justify that killing too fast is bad. Why?

cause your not going to be killing them much faster in a team of 6 damage deals than a team with 4 damage dealers

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

In your previous posts you were saying that it is fun to kill slowly so that your mesmer has the time to use interrupts and shutdowns in pve. Doh...maybe for you.

No i said it was fun to run some builds even if they take longer, like earth shaker + brambles, Its fun to do mass KDs and then have every thing start bleeding as well as take 5 damage each time you KD them, fun but not effective.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Fail.

You can use 6 people for damage AS WELL AS defense and pump both at 100% at same time.

Overall result? More damage, More defence. There are no compromises to be made.

Things are not going to die before they get any spells/attacks off unless you have a Iwin button that kills every thing on the map. The only way this model that you seem to view the game in works when it comes to saying Interrupts are useless, is if nothing on your team takes damage this is something you will never be able to stop no matter how fast you kill them cause you not going to kill ever thing in 1 hit and their are limits on how much damage you can do cause you only have 8 slots for your team.

also you cant pump stuff out 100% of the time you will need energy. Dont say add a BIP they dont do damage and at that point you will not have 6 damage dealers unless you take out a monk, this will also hurt your team monk than helping it in most HM areas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

If you already have enough defense to stay alive, why add more overkill defenses, just so you can kill slower? You are not making any sense to your arguments.

its not over killing it, 2 chars out of 8 is not saying that much something for melee and something for casting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

An MM is both offense and defense. This is why minion bombers with a curse necro using barbs are popular.

thats why i said you also get damage out if it, but if you want to do damage just play ele or war, a MM offers defense and a little damage as well but manly defense cause they NPCs attack the minions not your team. Also you cant always hide behind a MM, what do you want to use when you cant make minions? IMHO its better not to rely on something that will not always be available and view you what your other options are.

sixofone · Jul 18, 2008, 11:42 PM // 23:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by rebirthofdragon

long block of text

This leads me to conclude that, in PvE, the Mesmer's primary attribute of Fast Casting is effectively inferior to all other caster attributes. To improve it, I would recommend amending it to benefit the Mesmer for playing it's part (i.e. gain energy when a hex expires/spell fails; increase hex duration; make spells that target foes cheaper) or augmenting it to do something universally useful but that other professions can't do without skills (i.e. decrease recharge of spells).

That's my two cents.

Very well thought out argument, and worth more than 2-cents!

And, hey - it was even on topic!!

JDRyder · Jul 19, 2008, 12:06 AM // 00:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by rebirthofdragon

The obvious problem is that Mesmers are the only ones without inherent energy management and need to use up skill slots to be able to do what other professions do with just attribute points. While spiking is excellent in PvP, is less effective in PvE where there are more enemies and they have much more HP. Furthermore, most skills chosen for spiking already have fast casting times.

This leads me to conclude that, in PvE, the Mesmer's primary attribute of Fast Casting is effectively inferior to all other caster attributes. To improve it, I would recommend amending it to benefit the Mesmer for playing it's part (i.e. gain energy when a hex expires/spell fails; increase hex duration; make spells that target foes cheaper) or augmenting it to do something universally useful but that other professions can't do without skills (i.e. decrease recharge of spells).

That's my two cents.

Mesmers are not used for spiking in pvp at all.

If you were to use mesmers skills on a necro or ele do you think you'd energy management? Trying to compare profs like that is dumb, the prim att has more to do with what skills they will be using. Just cause mesmers prim att does not have to do with energy management does not mean they dont have it or that its useless, they have a full att type that deals with energy management in a more useful way than soul reaping can with their class. If you were to compare they way mesmers deal with energy management on a different Prof, If you were a ele and got energy in the same way mesmer does, you'd get 5 energy for each target you hit when you do a AoE spell, Giving a mesmer more energy management will be useless cause they dont run out of energy as is.

-Lotus- · Jul 19, 2008, 12:19 AM // 00:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by rebirthofdragon

epic post

win, win, win.

this the most thought-out and unbiased examination anyone could ask for.

Edit: JD, please stop talking, you dont really make any sense...

byteme! · Jul 19, 2008, 02:40 AM // 02:40

If I needed to deal 2000 dmg to kill a mob....I'd bring 3 times as much.

*in HM the monsters generally cast faster thus making interupting a lil tedious at best so I generally don't go that route. Plus doing damage has always done me better.

*Enemies like to spam conditions...Blind, Daze, Cripple, Weakness really put a hamper on your DPS depending on your class...I bring more damage to compensate. Can't expect my team mates/heroes/hench to remove all conditions instantaneously at all times. Especially under heavy pressure.

*Enemies like to block...stance removal works but those damn things come in packs >.< (small example of an enemies evasiveness)

*Hexes...The list is very long. Tons of caster and melee hate to go around crippling your overall DPS. I bring more dmg to compensate.

Lots of damage is good. The faster they die the better. You can never have enough damage.

JDRyder · Jul 19, 2008, 03:21 AM // 03:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Lotus-

Edit: JD, please stop talking, you dont really make any sense...

Mesmers dont need the energy management that eles and necros do, giving them more will be a wast. Fast casting works better for mesmer. Im not sure what does not make sense in that.

Mesmers are not used for spikers any where. He clammed the to be use for spikes in pvp, they are not. Any 1 that has ever been in/watched a gvg knows that.

Bowstring Badass · Jul 19, 2008, 04:01 AM // 04:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

Mesmers dont need the energy management that eles and necros do, giving them more will be a wast. Fast casting works better for mesmer for mesmer. Im not sure what does not make sense in that.

Mesmers are not used for spikers any where. He clammed the to be use for spikes in pvp, they are not. Any 1 that has ever been in/watched a gvg knows that.

Mesmer = utility in spikes with e-burn or shatter. So mesmers can get in with a spike.

JDRyder · Jul 19, 2008, 04:03 AM // 04:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bowstring Badass

Mesmer = utility in spikes with e-burn or shatter. So mesmers can get in with a spike.

thats not a spike.....