Curse

cellardweller · Jul 16, 2008, 09:52 AM // 09:52

I'm pretty sure if they gave us wands that provided 30 energy every 15 seconds I'd choose that over a 40/40 set

Mesmers are chosen for builds where either
1) the +2 dom/illusion/Insp makes a big enough difference to compensate for the sub par primary attribute
2) The build uses secondary skills that prevents a better choice of primary

kostolomac · Jul 16, 2008, 12:42 PM // 12:42

FC is ok , but I think we all agree that something has to be improved about it , and also about mantra of recovery.
About diversion , this skill is godly , period. Not that godly in normal pve , but in dungeons and elite areas it is godly as much it is in pvp.

Shaz · Jul 16, 2008, 12:52 PM // 12:52

Of course it's useful and an advantage, anything that improve your ability is useful and an advantage. But compare to other thing, FC isn't as good/important in PvE is what I was trying to say.

sixofone · Jul 16, 2008, 01:25 PM // 13:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by weretoad

it's lolz when you run yourself, gwen, and norgu and kill things hyper druggy fast.

LOL!! QFT!

And I think Upier's point is not that FC isn't useful, or fun - but simply isn't worth investing much in to in PvE because the point is to kill things as fast as possible, which means investing in your Dom or Illusion lines, or Fire/Air/Whatever. All classes can be played effectively and well w/o FC in PvE, which is why any X/Me combination works.

Again - no one's saying FC sux. Simply, FC isn't the most important att to concentrate on.

just my 2-pence

DarkSpirit · Jul 16, 2008, 04:04 PM // 16:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Are you so sure about that?

So are you saying that you prefer to have really really slow casting in pve?

Fast casting is not a terrible thing to have even in pve. The problem is not fast casting. The problem for mesmers is they prefer a primary attribute that grants more energy because energy is almost always an issue for mesmers. If you take away the energy limitation, I am sure fast casting would be more popular.

Should address what the real issue is first before discussing about a solution.

Magikarp · Jul 16, 2008, 04:29 PM // 16:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

So are you saying that you prefer to have really really slow casting in pve?

Fast casting is not a terrible thing to have even in pve. The problem is not fast casting. The problem for mesmers is they prefer a primary attribute that grants more energy because energy is almost always an issue for mesmers. If you take away the energy limitation, I am sure fast casting would be more popular.

Should address what the real issue is first before discussing about a solution.

i disagree to an extent. mesmers have the most powerful attribute line in the game for energy management, not to mention tons of secondary effects for management in other att lines, giving them tons of options to adapt their playstyles to have plenty of energy (i almost never fully tap out of energy ever in both pve or pvp). a good mesmer, just like a good monk or rit, can stay at near full energy at all times.

DarkSpirit · Jul 16, 2008, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

i disagree to an extent. mesmers have the most powerful attribute line in the game for energy management, not to mention tons of secondary effects for management in other att lines, giving them tons of options to adapt their playstyles to have plenty of energy (i almost never fully tap out of energy ever in both pve or pvp). a good mesmer, just like a good monk or rit, can stay at near full energy at all times.

I never said mesmers can never ever be configured to have enough energy for pve.

I said, many mesmers prefer a primary attribute that grants them energy for pve than fast casting. The point of that is, with a good energy primary attribute, you dont even need to bring energy management skills.

Magikarp · Jul 16, 2008, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

I never said mesmers can never ever have enough energy for pve.

I said, many mesmers prefer a primary attribute that grant them energy for pve than fast casting. The point is, with a good energy primary attribute, you dont even need to bring energy management skills.

only crit strikes, SR, and EXP give you that benefit.. and i guess myst. so.. lol.

JDRyder · Jul 16, 2008, 05:35 PM // 17:35

For the People that say mesmers need energy.

Mesmers have the Inspiraion, forget about all the others prim atts, Inspiraion give the mesmer what it needs to never run out with out wasting slots on your bar cause most of the skills are useful in 2 ways 1 you get energy/heath and 2 you remove enchants/steal energy/interrupt/remove hexes or give 25% to miss and some do more than 1. So Fast casting is a bonus your getting with the class, giving mesmer better energy management would be 100% useless cause if you run out of energy with all the stuff your given you need to be a little more creative imo

upier · Jul 16, 2008, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

For the People that say mesmers need energy.

Mesmers have the Inspiraion, forget about all the others prim atts, Inspiraion give the mesmer what it needs to never run out with out wasting slots on your bar cause most of the skills are useful in 2 ways 1 you get energy/heath and 2 you remove enchants/steal energy/interrupt/remove hexes or give 25% to miss and some do more than 1. So Fast casting is a bonus your getting with the class, giving mesmer better energy management would be 100% useless cause if you run out of energy with all the stuff your given you need to be a little more creative imo

And it's this duality of the Inspiration line that hurts it so badly.
The line has too much offense to matter as e-management without some serious investment in it.
But the offense it offers doesn't matter in PvE - so ... GoLE and AP here we come!

zwei2stein · Jul 16, 2008, 06:14 PM // 18:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

For the People that say mesmers need energy.

Mesmers have the Inspiraion, forget about all the others prim atts, Inspiraion give the mesmer what it needs to never run out with out wasting slots on your bar cause most of the skills are useful in 2 ways 1 you get energy/heath and 2 you remove enchants/steal energy/interrupt/remove hexes or give 25% to miss and some do more than 1. So Fast casting is a bonus your getting with the class, giving mesmer better energy management would be 100% useless cause if you run out of energy with all the stuff your given you need to be a little more creative imo

We kinda estabilished that mesmers dont need more energy skills when drain was imbapvebuffed and none really started using it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

So are you saying that you prefer to have really really slow casting in pve?

Fast casting is not a terrible thing to have even in pve. The problem is not fast casting. The problem for mesmers is they prefer a primary attribute that grants more energy because energy is almost always an issue for mesmers. If you take away the energy limitation, I am sure fast casting would be more popular.

Should address what the real issue is first before discussing about a solution.

Never said i like slow casts, i just explained that 20/20 sets are not used because people think that HCT is hot, but because other wand/focus upgrade options dont look so hot (for average pver).

Its Skill recharge that always limited mesmers more than anything. AP solves that.

Mesmers have no problem that needs adressing nowadays.

JDRyder · Jul 16, 2008, 06:15 PM // 18:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

And it's this duality of the Inspiration line that hurts it so badly.
The line has too much offense to matter as e-management without some serious investment in it.
But the offense it offers doesn't matter in PvE - so ... GoLE and AP here we come!

umm sry didnt rly get that D:

DarkSpirit · Jul 16, 2008, 07:12 PM // 19:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Never said i like slow casts, i just explained that 20/20 sets are not used because people think that HCT is hot, but because other wand/focus upgrade options dont look so hot (for average pver).

HCT IS hot because having faster cast IS still useful in PvE. If you think that having a faster cast sucks for a caster, then I would consider the majority to be right and you are wrong.

Quote:

Its Skill recharge that always limited mesmers more than anything. AP solves that.

Recharge is not an issue nowadays with skills like AP, [[Mantra of Recovery], [[Serpent's Quickness], and [[Dwarven Stability]. There many options out there besides AP.

Quote:

Mesmers have no problem that needs adressing nowadays.

I disagree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

For the People that say mesmers need energy.

Mesmers have the Inspiraion, forget about all the others prim atts, Inspiraion give the mesmer what it needs to never run out with out wasting slots on your bar cause most of the skills are useful in 2 ways 1 you get energy/heath and 2 you remove enchants/steal energy/interrupt/remove hexes or give 25% to miss and some do more than 1. So Fast casting is a bonus your getting with the class, giving mesmer better energy management would be 100% useless cause if you run out of energy with all the stuff your given you need to be a little more creative imo

You dont need to be a primary mesmer to use the inspiration line. Do you know where the good energy management skills are for necros? They are in the Soul Reaping (which is already quite good as a primary attribute effect) line. Do you know where the good generic energy management skills are for Eles? They are in the Energy Storage line.

How is this a sole advantage to be a primary mesmer when another caster class doesnt even need to bring energy management skills?

Inspiration energy management skills are also too conditional for my liking. I prefer GoLE in general.

upier · Jul 16, 2008, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

umm sry didnt rly get that D:

The problem is that e-management skills can't be as good as they should be (as e-management skills!) if they have secondary effects - like removing enches/hexes/interrupting foes ...
They also can't be as strong as they could be if they are in the same line as something as insane as Signet of Humility or Spirit Shackles.
So to make them strong enough - you need to invest more into the line - which means you have less points to spend on other lines.

And it's because of that kind of offense being completely useless in PvE - that brings up the question - is investing that much really worth it?
Especially when you can receive a comparable effect (in terms of e-management) from taking skills that require NO investment (GoLE) or have additional effects that are godly PvE-wise (AP).

Inspiration has issues proving it's worth in PvE if you are running it for e-management.

JDRyder · Jul 16, 2008, 07:31 PM // 19:31

8FC
10Insp
12dom or illusion

Im still not sure why mesmers need energy management like GoLE any way. Mesmers are not pumping out skills all the time like eles, necros etc, so the energy management you get from GoLE is a wast if you can use something like power drain or drain enchantments. This way you keep a 2 way useful skill and not run out of energy

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Its Skill recharge that always limited mesmers more than anything. AP solves that.

the recharge of mesmers skills are the same as necro, eles etc if there recharged faster mesmer would be overpowered imo

DarkSpirit · Jul 16, 2008, 07:53 PM // 19:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

8FC
10Insp
12dom or illusion

Im still not sure why mesmers need energy management like GoLE any way. Mesmers are not pumping out skills all the time like eles, necros etc, so the energy management you get from GoLE is a wast if you can use something like power drain or drain enchantments. This way you keep a 2 way useful skill and not run out of energy

Why do some mesmers prefer a 0 attribute investment, unconditional energy management like GoLE over a skill like Power Drain that is conditional and requires attribute investment? You tell me.

Power Drain requires you to wait for the target to cast a suitable spell to be interrupted, if you happen to lag and you missed interrupting it, too bad. Drain enchantment requires the target to be enchanted in the first place with a 20s recharge.

JDRyder · Jul 16, 2008, 08:55 PM // 20:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Why do some mesmers prefer a 0 attribute investment, unconditional energy management like GoLE over a skill like Power Drain that is conditional and requires attribute investment? You tell me.

Power Drain requires you to wait for the target to cast a suitable spell to be interrupted, if you happen to lag and you missed interrupting it, too bad. Drain enchantment requires the target to be enchanted in the first place with a 20s recharge.

cause they are things you need to be doing any way and if you cant do them then your doing it wrong. GoLE also has a 30sec recharge and you may only save 10 energy at the least with a max of 20, Drain enchant gives you 15 energy and removes a enchant from target and power drain gives you 25 energy and interrupts targets spell, there are few times where NPCs dont have enchant or spells, some useful some not and if they don't its no big deal cause your most likely not going to need that much energy at that point cause theres all melee

hurdlebeast · Jul 16, 2008, 09:12 PM // 21:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Are you so sure about that?

In Wands you can only replace it with 15^50, 5^50 or 10% HCT all... one eyed being king amongst blind.
In focuses you can only replace it with 30hp or 10% HCT all ... given that PvE people are inclined to replace usefull HP mods with anything that looks like it gives them moar power, i am not surprised.

And then, there is this issue that 20/20 looks pretty and perfect (i know other 20/20 that looks pretty and perfect), and that people have seems HCT and HSR packaged together so much that they kinda can't imagine replacing any of those 20s with different mod. Serioulsy, what was last time you looked at your 20/20 set and though about improving it?

Anyhow ... two 20 20 mods are equivalent of having 4-5 points in FC (averaged over long use), one 20 mod is equivalent to 2-3 points in FC. Technically you pay 30hp or 5 energy max for those 2-3 points in FC. Is that worth it?

i carried a 40/40 set and a +5 en +30 hp set. Eventually just put the +5/+30 set in storage and carried the 40/40 with me. Unless you specifically need +5 energy (I was an ele, so no) or the +30 hp (again, backliner, so no) why not go with the 40/40 set?

also used a 40/40 set ABing with my fast cast nuker (to make this post relevant), ran with a good monk and a degen mesmer for single targets. the 40% chance of half skill recharge was very, very helpful. 40% chance of half skill cast was semi-useful, albeit very, very handy for uberquick meteor shower drops.

DarkSpirit · Jul 16, 2008, 09:12 PM // 21:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

cause they are things you need to be doing any way and if you cant do them then your doing it wrong.

That is BS. Mesmers should not have to depend on Power Drain to interrupt a spell-casting monster or Drain Enchantment to disenchant every 20s solely for their energy needs. I would rather take energy tap and draw energy whenever I need it, than to have to rely on those, solely, for energy.

I dont take drain enchantment because I need an e-management skill, I take it when I need a disenchantment skill. In the same way, I dont take Power Drain simply because I need an e-management skill, I take it because I need an interrupt. To me, the energy returned is just a bonus, not the skill's main function.

Quote:

GoLE also has a 30sec recharge and you may only save 10 energy at the least with a max of 20, Drain enchant gives you 15 energy and removes a enchant from target and power drain gives you 25 energy and interrupts targets spell, there are few times where NPCs dont have enchant or spells, some useful some not and if they don't its no big deal cause your most likely not going to need that much energy at that point cause theres all melee

What part of unconditional 0 attribute point investment did you not get, for GoLE?

JDRyder · Jul 16, 2008, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

That is BS. Mesmers should not have to depend on Power Drain to interrupt a spell-casting monster or Drain Enchantment to disenchant every 20s solely for their energy needs. I would rather take energy tap and draw energy whenever I need it, than to have to rely on those, solely, for energy.

I dont take drain enchantment because I need an e-management skill, I take it when I need a disenchantment skill. In the same way, I dont take Power Drain simply because I need an e-management skill, I take it because I need an interrupt. To me, the energy returned is just a bonus, not the skill's main function.

What part of unconditional 0 attribute point investment did you not get, for GoLE?

if you need more energy management your doing it wrong, its hard to need more than you get from things like drain enchant, power drain etc and by saying " I take power drain cause i need a interrupt" is just helping my point.

Yes GoLE takes 0Att but you dont need it and its just a wast of a slot that may have been used for something more useful